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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 24591 / Logodaedalus</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 21:35:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62815</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well if it&#039;s in his book, then shurely it must be Ximenean. But I was never unhappy about it because it&#039;s &#039;un-Ximenean&#039; or whatever: it&#039;s simply that to me it&#039;s ... wrong!

Also, just because clues can be solved easily doesn&#039;t make them fair, as critics of Araucaria (usually &#039;Ximeneans&#039;) will tell you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well if it&#8217;s in his book, then shurely it must be Ximenean. But I was never unhappy about it because it&#8217;s &#8216;un-Ximenean&#8217; or whatever: it&#8217;s simply that to me it&#8217;s &#8230; wrong!</p>
<p>Also, just because clues can be solved easily doesn&#8217;t make them fair, as critics of Araucaria (usually &#8216;Ximeneans&#8217;) will tell you.</p>
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		<title>By: smutchin</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62565</link>
		<dc:creator>smutchin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul B - to be honest, I agree with you. I tend towards the view that you should be able to substitute the definition for the solution in a sentence, and always try to follow this rule when composing clues myself. However, I will continue to defend Pasquale&#039;s Wimple, if only for the hell of it...

I&#039;ve not read Ximenes or Afrit, but the justification is in Mr Manley&#039;s own book (Chapter 19: Basic Principles of Crossword Grammar). He agrees that &quot;an adverbial phrase cannot be used to define a noun&quot; but he also goes on to say:

&quot;By convention, it is permissible for a noun to be defined by a verb, as in this clue:
One party after another is really dead (4)
(&#039;do&#039; plus &#039;do&#039; equals DODO). Here the definition is understood to be &#039;[It] is really dead&#039; with the &#039;it&#039; understood.&quot;

Now, I don&#039;t especially like this example. And I&#039;m also slightly uneasy about justifying a clue from a reference source by the same author. But he&#039;s right. The important part of the quote being: &quot;By convention&quot;. It&#039;s convention that dictates that this kind of clue is acceptable and so, as you very rightly say, we have to like it or lump it. Accordingly, &quot;[it] covers head&quot; is a valid definition of wimple.

My comment about bad editing was tongue-in-cheek - I find it so hard to believe that Pasquale could bring himself to write a non-Ximenean clue that I had to imagine the source of blame lay elsewhere. But this only applies if you accept that the clue is non-Ximenean, which I don&#039;t.

Back to KERBSTONE, &quot;by the way&quot; cannot possibly be a valid definition for a strict Ximenean. But for the rest of us, the clue may be considered &quot;fair&quot; in so far as one is able to find the correct solution without difficulty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul B &#8211; to be honest, I agree with you. I tend towards the view that you should be able to substitute the definition for the solution in a sentence, and always try to follow this rule when composing clues myself. However, I will continue to defend Pasquale&#8217;s Wimple, if only for the hell of it&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve not read Ximenes or Afrit, but the justification is in Mr Manley&#8217;s own book (Chapter 19: Basic Principles of Crossword Grammar). He agrees that &#8220;an adverbial phrase cannot be used to define a noun&#8221; but he also goes on to say:</p>
<p>&#8220;By convention, it is permissible for a noun to be defined by a verb, as in this clue:<br />
One party after another is really dead (4)<br />
(&#8216;do&#8217; plus &#8216;do&#8217; equals DODO). Here the definition is understood to be &#8216;[It] is really dead&#8217; with the &#8216;it&#8217; understood.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now, I don&#8217;t especially like this example. And I&#8217;m also slightly uneasy about justifying a clue from a reference source by the same author. But he&#8217;s right. The important part of the quote being: &#8220;By convention&#8221;. It&#8217;s convention that dictates that this kind of clue is acceptable and so, as you very rightly say, we have to like it or lump it. Accordingly, &#8220;[it] covers head&#8221; is a valid definition of wimple.</p>
<p>My comment about bad editing was tongue-in-cheek &#8211; I find it so hard to believe that Pasquale could bring himself to write a non-Ximenean clue that I had to imagine the source of blame lay elsewhere. But this only applies if you accept that the clue is non-Ximenean, which I don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Back to KERBSTONE, &#8220;by the way&#8221; cannot possibly be a valid definition for a strict Ximenean. But for the rest of us, the clue may be considered &#8220;fair&#8221; in so far as one is able to find the correct solution without difficulty.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Stark</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62558</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Stark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s because I am more unique than most. Wasn&#039;t it John Arlott who coined the term &#039;freaker&#039; (if using it once, erroneously, then it never being used again is classed as being &#039;coined&#039;?!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s because I am more unique than most. Wasn&#8217;t it John Arlott who coined the term &#8216;freaker&#8217; (if using it once, erroneously, then it never being used again is classed as being &#8216;coined&#8217;?!)</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lazenby</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62557</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lazenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ian, Yes, you were very adjacent as John Arlott used to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian, Yes, you were very adjacent as John Arlott used to say.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian Stark</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62556</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Stark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derek, I&#039;m sure I nearly got ot in post #44, albeit unintentionally!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, I&#8217;m sure I nearly got ot in post #44, albeit unintentionally!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62549</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you underestimate the amount we are paid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you underestimate the amount we are paid.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lazenby</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62545</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lazenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, none of you got it. The flaw.....

Doing crosswords is somewhat superficial. Doesn&#039;t save any lives or put food in mouths etc etc.

Somebody should have thrown that back at me!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, none of you got it. The flaw&#8230;..</p>
<p>Doing crosswords is somewhat superficial. Doesn&#8217;t save any lives or put food in mouths etc etc.</p>
<p>Somebody should have thrown that back at me!</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lazenby</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62543</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lazenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62543</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul B, I agree, but isn&#039;t this a case of how it&#039;s read changes what it is? There are words missing from the &quot;say it properly&quot; phraseology, but then we frequently leave words out in real life, and compilers certainly do that. If you imagine the full version, isn&#039;t that then ok? I could be wrong, I frequently am.

Maybe, &quot;as found by the wayside&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul B, I agree, but isn&#8217;t this a case of how it&#8217;s read changes what it is? There are words missing from the &#8220;say it properly&#8221; phraseology, but then we frequently leave words out in real life, and compilers certainly do that. If you imagine the full version, isn&#8217;t that then ok? I could be wrong, I frequently am.</p>
<p>Maybe, &#8220;as found by the wayside&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: mhl</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62541</link>
		<dc:creator>mhl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To the commenters in general, I think there&#039;s not much more to be said about this particular puzzle, but if you do have more to say please try to keep the comments courteous and interesting, so that this continues to be a pleasant place to discuss the crosswords for everyone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the commenters in general, I think there&#8217;s not much more to be said about this particular puzzle, but if you do have more to say please try to keep the comments courteous and interesting, so that this continues to be a pleasant place to discuss the crosswords for everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/01/08/guardian-24591-logodaedalus/#comment-62540</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=4922#comment-62540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes. No-one has a clue who they are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. No-one has a clue who they are.</p>
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