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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 24,619 &#8211; Gordius</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Barnaby Page</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67829</link>
		<dc:creator>Barnaby Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67829</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t get terribly far with this one but NAINSOOK was the only solution I&#039;d never heard of. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s unreasonable for the occasional clue to push one toward a list of hypothetical solutions which fit either the pattern or the wordplay (or both), and then require their meaning to be looked up.

Of course, one wouldn&#039;t want every clue to work that way.

Chunter - there&#039;s also a Leoncavallo opera called I Zingari.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t get terribly far with this one but NAINSOOK was the only solution I&#8217;d never heard of. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s unreasonable for the occasional clue to push one toward a list of hypothetical solutions which fit either the pattern or the wordplay (or both), and then require their meaning to be looked up.</p>
<p>Of course, one wouldn&#8217;t want every clue to work that way.</p>
<p>Chunter &#8211; there&#8217;s also a Leoncavallo opera called I Zingari.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ellison</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67723</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ellison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derek #34, et al, en passant:

I, an average solver, don&#039;t expect the prize puzzle to be hard. It frequently isn&#039;t.

23d I got as far as theta, and couldn&#039;t remember the later letters of the Greek alphabet (it&#039;s been a few years), but the T didn&#039;t help. Omega should have sprung out.

I was fiddling with corsets (it&#039;s been a few years) to no satisfactory outcome, for 16d.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek #34, et al, en passant:</p>
<p>I, an average solver, don&#8217;t expect the prize puzzle to be hard. It frequently isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>23d I got as far as theta, and couldn&#8217;t remember the later letters of the Greek alphabet (it&#8217;s been a few years), but the T didn&#8217;t help. Omega should have sprung out.</p>
<p>I was fiddling with corsets (it&#8217;s been a few years) to no satisfactory outcome, for 16d.</p>
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		<title>By: Chunter</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67717</link>
		<dc:creator>Chunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Andrew: sorry to bring in cricket yet again, but there&#039;s a amateur touring side called (from the Italian) I Zingari.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew: sorry to bring in cricket yet again, but there&#8217;s a amateur touring side called (from the Italian) I Zingari.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67710</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Pete: the fact that certain of today&#039;s Guardian words appear in the bowels of estimable works other than Chambers hopefully doesn&#039;t affect my point, if I&#039;ve managed to make one.

Will: you&#039;ve got it in one. The upsurge in extraneity and spoiling techniques (also available at other unfortunate online locations) has been noted, according to my enquiries.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete: the fact that certain of today&#8217;s Guardian words appear in the bowels of estimable works other than Chambers hopefully doesn&#8217;t affect my point, if I&#8217;ve managed to make one.</p>
<p>Will: you&#8217;ve got it in one. The upsurge in extraneity and spoiling techniques (also available at other unfortunate online locations) has been noted, according to my enquiries.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67708</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tsigane/tzigane/gitane (Spanish: Gitano; German: Zigeuner) is an interesting word: it seems to come from Hungarian (hence perhaps the varied spellings). As with the English word &quot;Gypsy&quot; they  derive from the idea that Gypsies originated in Egypt. 

I know some of the words from several pieces of music in &quot;Gypsy&quot; (aka &quot;Turkish&quot; or generically &quot;exotic&quot;) style. &quot;Tzigane&quot; is the name of a well-known piece for violin (with various accompaniments) by Ravel, and there&#039;s a Noel Coward song called &quot;Zigeuner&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tsigane/tzigane/gitane (Spanish: Gitano; German: Zigeuner) is an interesting word: it seems to come from Hungarian (hence perhaps the varied spellings). As with the English word &#8220;Gypsy&#8221; they  derive from the idea that Gypsies originated in Egypt. </p>
<p>I know some of the words from several pieces of music in &#8220;Gypsy&#8221; (aka &#8220;Turkish&#8221; or generically &#8220;exotic&#8221;) style. &#8220;Tzigane&#8221; is the name of a well-known piece for violin (with various accompaniments) by Ravel, and there&#8217;s a Noel Coward song called &#8220;Zigeuner&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67707</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do not ask for whom Del trolls, he trolls for thee.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do not ask for whom Del trolls, he trolls for thee.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lazenby</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67704</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lazenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did I say I minded? I was asked to be cranky, it happened that that was not difficult today. So I took a view that I thought might represent those not here present. You guys still don&#039;t read it do you? What I think and what I argue about are not necessarily the same, I enjoy chewing the cud.

For the record, I wasn&#039;t too keen on today&#039;s offering but I didn&#039;t mind it too much. I was just doing as asked, cos it was fun to do so.

Who mentioned being angry? I don&#039;t know, you lot may know lottsa useless facts but you don&#039;t know people too well.

Certain people responded once again in a way which suggests they have no understanding of life outside the experts ivory tower. I merely try to be logical and present a broader view and get a facetious answer in reply. Doesn&#039;t say much about that person. Doesn&#039;t say much about any counter argument they may have as they obviously thought it too flakey to present. (I could still be just ess aitch one tea stirring still, but why spoil the fun by saying either way?)

I didn&#039;t get 1ac cos the majority of the words made me think of coal deliveries which in my young day was by horse and cart, which of course has no engine. Social commentary number 5,429, clearly others come from a background which was posher than that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did I say I minded? I was asked to be cranky, it happened that that was not difficult today. So I took a view that I thought might represent those not here present. You guys still don&#8217;t read it do you? What I think and what I argue about are not necessarily the same, I enjoy chewing the cud.</p>
<p>For the record, I wasn&#8217;t too keen on today&#8217;s offering but I didn&#8217;t mind it too much. I was just doing as asked, cos it was fun to do so.</p>
<p>Who mentioned being angry? I don&#8217;t know, you lot may know lottsa useless facts but you don&#8217;t know people too well.</p>
<p>Certain people responded once again in a way which suggests they have no understanding of life outside the experts ivory tower. I merely try to be logical and present a broader view and get a facetious answer in reply. Doesn&#8217;t say much about that person. Doesn&#8217;t say much about any counter argument they may have as they obviously thought it too flakey to present. (I could still be just ess aitch one tea stirring still, but why spoil the fun by saying either way?)</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t get 1ac cos the majority of the words made me think of coal deliveries which in my young day was by horse and cart, which of course has no engine. Social commentary number 5,429, clearly others come from a background which was posher than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Owenjonesuk</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67684</link>
		<dc:creator>Owenjonesuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[20 down I put GITANES at first. It&#039;s a brand of cigarettes and it means &quot;gypsy women&quot; in French. If I didn&#039;t naturally have such a sunny disposition that would have made me cranky.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>20 down I put GITANES at first. It&#8217;s a brand of cigarettes and it means &#8220;gypsy women&#8221; in French. If I didn&#8217;t naturally have such a sunny disposition that would have made me cranky.</p>
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		<title>By: Eileen</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67683</link>
		<dc:creator>Eileen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Witty as ever, Smutchin!! [But what about Rufus??]I&#039;d written the following before seeing yours, so I&#039;ll post it anyway!

I think Nathan [Comment 31] has a valid point, in not expecting [but still only grumbling &#039;slightly&#039;!] to find obscure words and obscure wordplay in the same clue. Apart from 4dn, I don&#039;t think we have that in this puzzle. 

1ac is not just a Latin phrase but a legal term, and thus might be known by a wider audience than those of us who were lucky enough to learn Latin at [state] school. In fact, although I could work it out from the second part of the clue, I hadn&#039;t come across it as a phrase and so looked it up - and learned something. The first part of the clue was absolutely straightforward and surely right up Derek&#039;s street?: no engine = no loco; NE &#039;Newcastle&#039; [not to everyone&#039;s taste, I know, but common enough to be readily recognised] around &#039;tender&#039;,  the wagon behind the engine, or &#039;coal supplier&#039; - perfect! If you got to the answer this way, then again you can look up the whole phrase and learn something.

On the other hand, we have commenters like Tom Hutton, who don&#039;t like to have to work back to answers, so they should have been reasonably happy today, I think - being able to learn some new words or phrases perhaps [AIOLI? TSIGANE?] by perfectly &#039;legitimate&#039; means. 

Personally, I don&#039;t mind which way I get the answer and, if it&#039;s a new word, so much the better, if it&#039;s a fair clue. Some people get there by having a prodigious vocabulary, others by painstaking parsing, others by a rare flash of intuition - many, I believe, by a combination of all those.

It seems we&#039;re never going to reach agreement - even about what, in fact, does constitute a hard / easy puzzle but, bearing in mind Pete Biddlecombe&#039;s comment re Hugh Stephenson&#039;s intention, can&#039;t we just agree to differ, rather than have the same argument two or three times every week?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Witty as ever, Smutchin!! [But what about Rufus??]I&#8217;d written the following before seeing yours, so I&#8217;ll post it anyway!</p>
<p>I think Nathan [Comment 31] has a valid point, in not expecting [but still only grumbling 'slightly'!] to find obscure words and obscure wordplay in the same clue. Apart from 4dn, I don&#8217;t think we have that in this puzzle. </p>
<p>1ac is not just a Latin phrase but a legal term, and thus might be known by a wider audience than those of us who were lucky enough to learn Latin at [state] school. In fact, although I could work it out from the second part of the clue, I hadn&#8217;t come across it as a phrase and so looked it up &#8211; and learned something. The first part of the clue was absolutely straightforward and surely right up Derek&#8217;s street?: no engine = no loco; NE &#8216;Newcastle&#8217; [not to everyone's taste, I know, but common enough to be readily recognised] around &#8216;tender&#8217;,  the wagon behind the engine, or &#8216;coal supplier&#8217; &#8211; perfect! If you got to the answer this way, then again you can look up the whole phrase and learn something.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we have commenters like Tom Hutton, who don&#8217;t like to have to work back to answers, so they should have been reasonably happy today, I think &#8211; being able to learn some new words or phrases perhaps [AIOLI? TSIGANE?] by perfectly &#8216;legitimate&#8217; means. </p>
<p>Personally, I don&#8217;t mind which way I get the answer and, if it&#8217;s a new word, so much the better, if it&#8217;s a fair clue. Some people get there by having a prodigious vocabulary, others by painstaking parsing, others by a rare flash of intuition &#8211; many, I believe, by a combination of all those.</p>
<p>It seems we&#8217;re never going to reach agreement &#8211; even about what, in fact, does constitute a hard / easy puzzle but, bearing in mind Pete Biddlecombe&#8217;s comment re Hugh Stephenson&#8217;s intention, can&#8217;t we just agree to differ, rather than have the same argument two or three times every week?</p>
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		<title>By: smutchin</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/02/10/guardian-24619-gordius/#comment-67682</link>
		<dc:creator>smutchin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=5533#comment-67682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Mr Rusbridger, I demand that the Guardian launch forthwith a new daily section comprising word puzzles of varying levels of difficulty, ranging from simple acrostics to Times-style jumbo cryptics set exclusively by Gordius, Rover, Paul, Araucaria and Enigmatist. I&#039;m sure you wouldn&#039;t object to losing a few news pages to accommodate this - maybe the business news, which is all too depressing these days anyway, and the international news, which of absolutely no interest to me. Maybe you could also drop the fashion section, which I&#039;m sure no one ever reads, and axe that witch Toynbee while you&#039;re at it. Yours etc, Angry of Yorkshire]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr Rusbridger, I demand that the Guardian launch forthwith a new daily section comprising word puzzles of varying levels of difficulty, ranging from simple acrostics to Times-style jumbo cryptics set exclusively by Gordius, Rover, Paul, Araucaria and Enigmatist. I&#8217;m sure you wouldn&#8217;t object to losing a few news pages to accommodate this &#8211; maybe the business news, which is all too depressing these days anyway, and the international news, which of absolutely no interest to me. Maybe you could also drop the fashion section, which I&#8217;m sure no one ever reads, and axe that witch Toynbee while you&#8217;re at it. Yours etc, Angry of Yorkshire</p>
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