Comments on: Guardian 24,653 (Sat 21 Mar)/Gordius – The splice of life

By: rightback

rightback — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 08:28:53 +0000

Claire B: You may be right that 12ac was intended as THE + IR rather than a hidden answer, but I don’t think ‘belonging to’ is sufficient as a definition for ‘their’, which is why I think Gordius linked to the previous clue. Gordius is very ‘Guardian’, and I suspect you might have a similar solving experience with other crosswords by this setter.

By: Claire B

Claire B — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:34:01 +0000

Surely the clue for ‘their’ is also just THE + IR as in ‘the Irish’ with the whole meaning ‘belonging to’?

I struggled with perse and sorbo and found this crossword quite annoying and not very joyous or satisfactory.

By: rightback

rightback — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:16:11 +0000

Thanks to Ralph and Geoff for this week’s etymology lesson. Interesting that others should have struggled on the same clues as me – definitely some tricky ones in this puzzle.

C & J (comment 6 above): yes, ‘pull out’ = ‘extract’ (as in a tooth) is the definition in the cryptic reading, but I was talking about the (deliberately misleading) surface reading (in this case about cricket), which nonetheless should make sense, and I don’t really think this one does.

By: Geoff

Geoff — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:24:20 +0000

I can’t find any etymological explanation for the placename Fars/Paarsa itself. My own suggestion is that it may derive from the Proto-IndoEuropean root *pers-, meaning ‘dust’ – but of course it might have come from an earlier non-PIE language.

By: Ralph G

Ralph G — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:47:03 +0000

Geoff (12 above) thanks for that, esp. the Persia/Farsi link. Pursuing the ‘peach’ line, there is an interesting development: Latin persicus > pessica > O Fr pesche > Fr pêche E peach.
And further thanks rightback for the music link and an introduction to the Wonderland of YouTube classical music videos!

By: Geoff

Geoff — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:35:28 +0000

Ralph G: The scientific name for the peach is Prunus persica, ie the Persian plum, showing that the word ‘peach’ is also toponymic. Hence it is impossible to say whether the name of the colour came directly from ‘Persia’ or via the ‘Persian’ fruit – but the etymology is the same either way.

‘Persia’ is the Latin name, via the Greek ‘Persis’, of the district known as ‘Paarsa’ in Old Persian – Fars in modern Iran (showing that the more usual modern English name for the main language of Iran, ‘Farsi’, is cognate with the older term ‘Persian’)

By: Ralph G

Ralph G — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:47:35 +0000

Thanks rightback for the blog and the enquiry re 22d PERSE. The word occurs twice, incidentally, in the French spelling, in the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales: at 439, of the doctor, “In sangwyn and in pers he clad was al”; also at 617.
O Fr pers is vouched for in 1080 (still current, incidentally, esp. of the eyes); Medl. Latin persus is cited in 1259. Which came first is difficult to say (the Latin is attested in the 8c in a French source per OED), but according to my non-OED sources they both derive from classical Latin Persicus – Persian, whence came the dye. OED not convinced by this story (the water being muddied by ‘persica’ –peach) but helpfully supplies Mod. Dutch ‘paars’ from an earlier form ‘pers’, an example perhaps of language following the merchandise.
No information anterior to the Latin.

By: Colin H

Colin H — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:39:21 +0000

I had “clips” for 23ac, as in “clip joint”.

By: Geoff

Geoff — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:35:54 +0000

I enjoyed this one more than his recent weekday examples, and didn’t find it too taxing.

As I live only ten miles from Bolton, I had an unfair advantage with 10ac. I spotted the possible Mary, Queen of Scots connection in 17dn, but, like others, knew of her secretary as David Rizzio, which hampered this one for a while. PERSE I surmised from ‘per se’ but had to confirm the colour meaning.

The anagram for 26ac is great, but the clue is let down by an inappropriate definition, as rightback points out. And I really liked the ingenious charade for 9dn, but question the word. Is HORSERADISH really a countable noun, with a legitimate plural? Horseradish is only ever grated and not eaten as complete whole roots, unlike ‘radishes’.

By: Colin H

Colin H — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:20:59 +0000

This was a bit of a bugger, to be blunt. The whole right-hand side/bottom right corner took a devil of a time, and I couldn’t get 22d at all.