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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 24,685 &#8211; Chifonie</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: smutchin</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83510</link>
		<dc:creator>smutchin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83510</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derek, you&#039;re spot on - there are loads of other examples of this kind of indirectness that crop up over and over without comment. It is &lt;em&gt;technically&lt;/em&gt; indirect for the reasons Testy explains, but I admit that didn&#039;t even enter my head until Uncle Yap pointed it out. 

Like Take=R, it&#039;s common enough in crosswords that the indirectness can hardly be deemed to be unfair.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, you&#8217;re spot on &#8211; there are loads of other examples of this kind of indirectness that crop up over and over without comment. It is <em>technically</em> indirect for the reasons Testy explains, but I admit that didn&#8217;t even enter my head until Uncle Yap pointed it out. </p>
<p>Like Take=R, it&#8217;s common enough in crosswords that the indirectness can hardly be deemed to be unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lazenby</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83503</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lazenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah that makes sense, ta.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah that makes sense, ta.</p>
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		<title>By: Testy</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83471</link>
		<dc:creator>Testy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83471</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Initially I agreed that sinister did seem indirect (because we have to take two steps to get to L, sinister=left and L is short for left) but I&#039;m coming round to it now.  There are many other similar situations where we probably wouldn&#039;t bat an eylid.

e.g. Novice driver = learner and L is short for learner
take = recipe and R is short for recipe (here we are more likely to balk at its obscurity rather than its indirectness)

I think the problem is that we accept these as they have become common crossword cliches whereas the sinister one isn&#039;t (or at least not yet).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Initially I agreed that sinister did seem indirect (because we have to take two steps to get to L, sinister=left and L is short for left) but I&#8217;m coming round to it now.  There are many other similar situations where we probably wouldn&#8217;t bat an eylid.</p>
<p>e.g. Novice driver = learner and L is short for learner<br />
take = recipe and R is short for recipe (here we are more likely to balk at its obscurity rather than its indirectness)</p>
<p>I think the problem is that we accept these as they have become common crossword cliches whereas the sinister one isn&#8217;t (or at least not yet).</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Lazenby</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83470</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Lazenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m still baffled that people crab the use of sinister as indirect.

Just in terms of directions, point can mean any of NSEW, direction can mean any of those plus LR and nobody says a thing. As a one letter indicator, sinister has only one meaning and is therefore better as it is more accurate.

And what about a word like boy? That can be any of many boys names, or not even a name at all but a synonym like lad. That can be infuriatingly obscure as to which to choose if you have no cross checks.

But sinister has one and only one single letter meaning, and that is somehow worse than others which have many? Even as a possible synonym it is no worse than boy or girl etc.

There are also presumably some short memories out there because I&#039;m damn sure I&#039;ve seen this usage several times and not heard a single comment before.

Tee hee, how droll. Derek the famous defender of setters! LOL!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still baffled that people crab the use of sinister as indirect.</p>
<p>Just in terms of directions, point can mean any of NSEW, direction can mean any of those plus LR and nobody says a thing. As a one letter indicator, sinister has only one meaning and is therefore better as it is more accurate.</p>
<p>And what about a word like boy? That can be any of many boys names, or not even a name at all but a synonym like lad. That can be infuriatingly obscure as to which to choose if you have no cross checks.</p>
<p>But sinister has one and only one single letter meaning, and that is somehow worse than others which have many? Even as a possible synonym it is no worse than boy or girl etc.</p>
<p>There are also presumably some short memories out there because I&#8217;m damn sure I&#8217;ve seen this usage several times and not heard a single comment before.</p>
<p>Tee hee, how droll. Derek the famous defender of setters! LOL!</p>
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		<title>By: brr</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83469</link>
		<dc:creator>brr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83469</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m glad Monica asked that question .... I felt a bit daft myself, not knowing.

Thanks for the information.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad Monica asked that question &#8230;. I felt a bit daft myself, not knowing.</p>
<p>Thanks for the information.</p>
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		<title>By: Monica M</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83454</link>
		<dc:creator>Monica M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83454</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Smutchin ... a true indication that I lack a classical education!!!  

I did alright on this despite not getting to it until I was on my way home from work rather late ... and was much too tired to venture onto the site.   

And I agree with your comment on insolvent, I thought is was a stretch, but knew it was the correct answer... and at the time really didn&#039;t care too much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Smutchin &#8230; a true indication that I lack a classical education!!!  </p>
<p>I did alright on this despite not getting to it until I was on my way home from work rather late &#8230; and was much too tired to venture onto the site.   </p>
<p>And I agree with your comment on insolvent, I thought is was a stretch, but knew it was the correct answer&#8230; and at the time really didn&#8217;t care too much.</p>
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		<title>By: smutchin</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83441</link>
		<dc:creator>smutchin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Monica - sinister and dexter are left and right in Latin. Also used in heraldry (as in &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bend_Sinister&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bend sinister&lt;/a&gt;&quot;), which often crops up in crosswords.

I would agree with most of the above-mentioned criticisms of this puzzle. However, while sinister=L is indirect, there are degrees of indirectness and that&#039;s definitely at the easier end of the scale, so I have no objection to it myself. To be honest, debtor=insolvent is the only one I really objected to. The other complaints are very minor niggles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monica &#8211; sinister and dexter are left and right in Latin. Also used in heraldry (as in &#8220;<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bend_Sinister" rel="nofollow">bend sinister</a>&#8220;), which often crops up in crosswords.</p>
<p>I would agree with most of the above-mentioned criticisms of this puzzle. However, while sinister=L is indirect, there are degrees of indirectness and that&#8217;s definitely at the easier end of the scale, so I have no objection to it myself. To be honest, debtor=insolvent is the only one I really objected to. The other complaints are very minor niggles.</p>
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		<title>By: Monica M</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83437</link>
		<dc:creator>Monica M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83437</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If anyone is still looking at this blog ... I have a (probably) dumb question ... why does left (L) = sinister???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone is still looking at this blog &#8230; I have a (probably) dumb question &#8230; why does left (L) = sinister???</p>
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		<title>By: mhl</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83415</link>
		<dc:creator>mhl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil van den Hoek: I was trying to avoid the controversy, since it was late in the day :)  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_gold_mark&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;According to Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt; the abbreviation for the German mark between 1873 to 1914 was just &quot;M&quot;.  I would use Unicode 0x2133 (&quot;German Mark currency symbol, before WWII&quot; - an error, apparently) but it won&#039;t come out in the comments...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil van den Hoek: I was trying to avoid the controversy, since it was late in the day <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_gold_mark" rel="nofollow">According to Wikipedia</a> the abbreviation for the German mark between 1873 to 1914 was just &#8220;M&#8221;.  I would use Unicode 0&#215;2133 (&#8220;German Mark currency symbol, before WWII&#8221; &#8211; an error, apparently) but it won&#8217;t come out in the comments&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Yap</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2009/04/28/guardian-24685-chifonie/#comment-83348</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Yap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=7397#comment-83348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for all the comments. Following my failure last week to interprete &quot;latest&quot; as &quot;news&quot;, I failed to spot the musical instrument, panpipes but instead inked in the famous Scottish bagpipes. I should have known my mistake when I couldn&#039;t equate bags with scans.

However, I still think clueing &quot;sinister&quot; for the letter L is not kosher or halal]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for all the comments. Following my failure last week to interprete &#8220;latest&#8221; as &#8220;news&#8221;, I failed to spot the musical instrument, panpipes but instead inked in the famous Scottish bagpipes. I should have known my mistake when I couldn&#8217;t equate bags with scans.</p>
<p>However, I still think clueing &#8220;sinister&#8221; for the letter L is not kosher or halal</p>
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