Fifteensquared

Never knowingly undersolved.

Guardian 24,715 – Chifonie

Posted by Uncle Yap on June 2nd, 2009

Uncle Yap.

dd = double definition
cd = cryptic definition
rev = reversed or reversal
ins = insertion
cha = charade
ha = hidden answer
*(fodder) = anagram

Thank you, Eileen for so ably filling in for me during May when I was in London to see my new-born grandson, Matthew whose picture will now signal my presence on these blogs. I was also able to meet up (thanks to Peter Biddlecombe for the arrangement) with bloggers like Andrew (a very distressed person, speaking from a cryptic point of view) Jane Teather (I did not waste any time saying ‘Me Tarzan, you Jane’) and BeerMagnet, a most attractive personality. I was privileged to meet compilers like Mike Laws, Paul McKenna, John Henderson, Kea/Nestor and Morph.

Today’s puzzle is an easy re-entry and I carry on from where I left off last time, criticising Chifonie for using “sinister” to indicate the letter L. No such today except that an “ion” is really a charged particle but in crosswords, compilers seem to take liberties by shortening this to  “charge”. I wonder whether Chifonie’s use of “charged group” is any better. Otherwise, a very varied set of smooth and entertaining clues.

ACROSS
1 FORFEIT Ins of ORFE (a golden-yellow semi-domesticated fish, a variety of id; I have never seen this word before and had to check Chambers) in FIT (well)
5 ANTWERP Cha of AN TWERP (oaf)
9 TUNIS Ins of I in TUNS (casks)
10 ISOLATION *(Sit in a loo) What a convenient anagram!
11 SCORESHEET Ins of CORES’ (hearts’) + HE (man) in SET (place)
12 ETON Rev of NOTE (register)
14 DUPLICITOUS *(Idol is cut up)
18 SUPERINTEND *(turnips need)
21 ETUI ha
22 CHARGEHAND Cha of CHARGE (attack) HAND (help)
25 ORDER FORM Cha of ORDER (brotherhood) FORM (slang for criminal record)
26 DIRGE Ins of G (German) in DIRE (woeful)
27 DONEGAL Cha of DONE (finished) GAL (lassie)
28 STRANGE ST (street or road) + Ins of N (north or pole) in RAGE

DOWN
1 FETISH Ins of ET (IVR International Vehicle Registration abbreviation for Egypt) in FISH (swimmer)
2 RANSOM R (rex or king) ‘ansom (hansom carriage)
3 EASTENDERS Cha of EA (each) S (last letter of lass) TENDERS (offers money)
4 THIGH Cha of T (Henry Ford’s model T) HIGH (elevated)
5 AT ONE TIME Cha of ATONE (make good) TIME (in prison, porridge)
6 TEAR dd
7 EVICTION Ins of VIC (Victoria) in E-T (Eastern Thailand) + ION (charged group ?)
8 PUNINESS Ins of NINE (one over the eight) in PUSS (cat or Tom)
13 MIND-READER Ins of DREAD (fear) in MINER (Pitman)
15 PUNCHBOWL Cha of PUNCH (abusive husband vis-a-vis Judy) BOWL (deliver a ball in cricket)
16 ASTEROID A + *(editor’s)
17 OPIUM DEN *(impounde)
19 BARREN Sounds like Baron (noble)
20 ADHERE Cha of AD (notice) HERE (present)
23 REMUS R (royal) EMUS (birds) Brother of Romulus of Roman fame
24 DRAG Cha of D (500 or many) RAG (poke fun)

25 Responses to “Guardian 24,715 – Chifonie”

  1. Eileen says:

    Nothing to add to your excellent blog, Uncle Yap, but it was a pleasure to fill in for you. Congratulations on your new grandson. I’m sorry I didn’t get down [or, rather, 'up'!] to see you.

  2. Andrew says:

    Welcome back to the blogging fold, Uncle Yap. It was a pleasure to meet you in London. This was another enjoyable but easy puzzle – perhaps we’re being softened up for some toughies later in the week…

  3. jvh says:

    Thanks Uncle Yap. I think 11a is CORES + HE in SET (not in ST).

  4. Uncle Yap says:

    You are right. I read wrongly and have since corrected the blog. Thanks jvh

  5. Monica M says:

    One over eight = nine … how could I miss something so obvious.

    Thanks Uncle Yap … I’m glad you all enjoyed your get together recently.

  6. Ian P says:

    “I was also able to meet up (thanks to Peter Biddlecombe for the arrangement) with bloggers like Andrew (a very distressed person, speaking from a cryptic point of view) Jane Teather (I did not waste any time saying ‘Me Tarzan, you Jane’)” – Uncle Yap

    ++++And I’m sure she didn’Teather.

    Good crossword, relaxing but not frustratingly simple. Good blog.

    Andrew: Yes, wasn’t there a week a few weeks ago like that but only in reverse? Difficult on Monday through Thursday then easy Friday and Saturday, I think.

  7. liz says:

    Thanks for the blog. Very nice puzzle, I thought. I couldn’t see what else 5dn could be, other than AT ONE TIME, but I’m still struggling to see how it could mean ‘together’. I’m sure it’s blindingly obvious!

  8. Eileen says:

    Hi Liz: I’m sure our choir master would like us to think that together = at one time! ;-) [and - Chambers gives 'together: at the same time']

  9. liz says:

    Thanks Eileen. I kept thinking of ‘once’.

  10. don says:

    Damn. I was convinced that ‘help’ = ‘aid’ and therefore the end of 22 across could only be ‘maid’. I took ages to see ‘assault’ = ‘charge’ and it was the last I put in. Does ‘chargemaid’ come within ‘Eilen’s law of solver’s dispensation’?

    I’m still not convinced, Eileen, that ‘at one time’ = ‘together’ any more than you seem to be that you went ‘up’ to London, or didn’t – but that’s another bone to chew on.

  11. Derek Lazenby says:

    Just to confirm that Uncle Yap (congrats BTW) is correct an ion is a charged particle not a charge. But I still worry that as the most basic unit of charge is inseperable from a proton, which is also an ion, that the usage charge=ion is ok in that one specific case. I really want to say it’s wrong, but I’d be prepared to be convinced on those grounds.

    The comment on 10 was as appropriate as the anagram! Nice one to both of you.

    IanP, you accidently made me feel good again! I’ve always presumed that anything I could finish would be too easy for you enjoy. Maybe that means I’m getting better? Yeah Yeah, I know, I know :- a) not before time; b) from where I was that’s not difficult.

    See people? I’m quite fair, I’m hard on me too!

  12. Eileen says:

    don, you’re being mischievous. My [I presume you meant me ;-) ] ‘law of solver’s dispensation’, as you call it [what a long memory you have!] only applies if the wordplay makes sense! Where does the M come from?

    Re ‘together’: I didn’t particularly like that interpretation – like liz, I would usually think of ‘at one time’ as meaning ‘once’. I said the other day that I was not used to looking up things I thought I knew and therefore missed things that were in Chambers. It has just occurred to me to go a bit further and, under ‘time’, I found ‘at one time: formerly; simultaneously’. But I still don’t like it!

  13. petero says:

    Thanks for the blog, Uncle Yap – it’s a model of clarity. Re 7d, I do think that ‘charged group’ is better than ‘charge’. An ion is a group, of atoms minus the odd electron, or of subatomic particles (the deuteron); even the aforementioned proton is now generally regarded by them as knows as a group of quarks, gluons and whatever else has been thought up while my back has been turned.

  14. Derek Lazenby says:

    True, from the sub-atomic particles view, a group makes sense, but it would be a very unusual way of saying it, despite being correct.

    Back when I was being taught this in the dawn of pre-history, an ion was a single atom that had lost or gained electrons when compared to it’s normal state, not a group of atoms. So that would have led to evictIONS as you can undoubtedly have a group of ions.

  15. don says:

    Derek, surely an ion isn’t a charged _group_. It’s an _individual_ particle. Wouldn’t you need more than one to make it a group? Can you make a sentence where ‘ion’ can be replaced by ‘charged group’?

    Where’s Don Manley when he’s needed?

  16. don says:

    The ‘m’, Eileen, came from ‘dilemma’ – mine!

  17. Derek Lazenby says:

    don, petero was suggesting we take the sub-atomic view, ask him, his idea, but in a loose sense I’d agree.

    In an equally loose sense, without going to the sub-atomic level, except for a hydrogen ion, any ion is a group of atomic particles. Which I think is what petero was getting at at the sub-atomic scale, to whit “one” depends on your viewpoint.

    So an oxygen ion is a singular ion, but is nonetheless composed of a group of charge carrying smaller particles. Two groups I suppose, negative and positive, ummm….

    But like I said, it was his idea, ask him.

  18. Dave Ellison says:

    The top left corner brought me to a crawl from my initial rush. For 3d I ran through my list of soaps, including East Enders; maybe it was because it flashed through my mind that it was two words that I dismissed this. And, like Liz, once you have the wrong sense in mind it is often hard to shake off, I couldn’t rid myself of “forego” for 1a for ages.

  19. Mr Beaver says:

    At the risk of beating a very dead horse, the sulphate ion (SO4 – forgive the lack of subscript) is a “charged group” of atoms, so I think 7d is definitely legitimate.

  20. Dagnabit says:

    Welcome back, Uncle Yap!

    I missed only 5d but had a lovely time trying to Google it. I wanted to share with you all the following excerpt I discovered from a book published in 1825, entitled “Don Esteban, or, Memoirs of a Spaniard. Written by Himself”:

    “…I met with a troop of young wenches dancing on the green, and remarking the handsomest of them casting such roguish looks on me, I said to myself, ‘What a nice plum would this be if it fell in my mouth!’ (It was not a plum, but a sour berry, – but no matter.) I said to her, – ‘Juice of my life! Don’t you think we might make good porridge together?’ ‘I don’t know but we might,’ replied she. ‘Touch there,’ said I, stretching out my hand to her. ‘Done,’ said she, and off we went to adjust matters with her father.”

  21. Derek Lazenby says:

    Oh, yeah, forgot that Mr Beaver! Ta very much. It’s too many decades ago for me to remember accurately.

    So, group works on all levels then? Cool. So now we all know.

  22. Bryan says:

    I have a friend with a 7-letter name who lives in Antwerp and he is definitely an oaf.

    Consequently, I opted for his name in 5a.

    I still prefer my solution.

    Bryan

  23. petero says:

    Don, it depends to some extent on what you mean. If by ‘particle’ you mean ‘atom’, then, as the estimable Mr Beaver (I take my hat off to you) points out above, an ion may be a molecule – a group of atoms – charged by a deficit or excess of electrons. I now see that in my first note I overlooked the excess part – I really ought to know my anions. Thus it was rather a surprise on looking up ‘ion’ in Chambers to find that, after the basic ‘charged particle’ (which seems to be Faraday’s original, and understandably vague, definition), Mr. Chamber expands on it with specific reference to an atom (do I hear cries of ‘Chambers is wrong’?) Well, not necessarily in this case, but the consensus definition seems to find it worth spelling out that an ion is a charged atom *or* molecule, and Chambers goes along with this in its article on ‘radical’. Incidentally, the OED supplement, as is its wont, gives several examples for the usage of ‘ion’, including one from Sedgewick which runs in part “… this may be taken as evidence that the calcium and the CO2 are themselves ions, but that the atoms of the CO2 group are …”. No actual ‘charged’ there, but it is surely implied.
    It seems to me that your contention turns on what you consider a ‘particle’, even though it may be divisible into sub-particles. It seems to me that the ideas of ‘molecule’, ‘atom’ and even ‘proton’ and ‘neutron’ have sunk sufficiently deeply into the general consciousness that it is not unreasonable to regard a molecular ion as a charged group of atoms, or an atomic ion, other than hydrogen, as a charged group of neutrons, protons and maybe electrons. This leaves the positive hydrogen ion, the lone proton; maybe the postulated subunits here, whether quarks, gluons, bits of string or whatever, still seem like gonzo science, but I’m just pointing out that the idea of ‘group’ is not ruled out even here.
    In any case, I stand by my original contention, that ‘charged group’ is a definite step up from ‘charge’.

  24. InGrid says:

    How appalling if all my enemies were under my roof at one time – I doubt I’d have enough cups and saucers (or glasses for that matter).

  25. stiofain says:

    it is great that someone knows their anions from their elbows

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