Fifteensquared

Never knowingly undersolved.

Guardian 24,724 / Logodaedalus

Posted by Andrew on June 12th, 2009

Andrew.

I’m not sure what to make of this one – mostly quite straightforward and with some nice clues, but a few quibbles too. There are several places where a word in the clue is used directly in the answer, which can make them easy to solve, but can also be a kind of double bluff, where you search for synonyms, not realising that the word you want is right in front of you..

Key:
* = anagram
cd = cryptic definition
dd = double definition

Across
1. SATANIC A TAN in SIC(k) – the first of several examples of a word in the clue being used directly in the answer
5. ASQUITH QUIT in ASH. Asquith was PM from 1908 to 1916.
10. CAST dd, I think – “All characters” is one defintiion; I know you can have die-cast mouldings, but how does “die”=CAST? I don’t have a dictionary to hand so perhaps someone could elucidate.
11. NATIONWIDE NATION (people) + WIDE (off the mark).
12. CHERUB HER in CUB – another direct use of a clue word.
13. ABSENTEE SENT in A BEE
14. ADHERENTS HEAD* + RENTS
16. DIRTY A rather weak dd – FILTH almost works here too
17. DIARY IA in DRY
19. DAYLIGHTS cd -“lights” can mean an animal’s innards
23. ASTERISK TRIES in ASK*
24. UMPIRE (p)UMP + IRE – another one like 1 and 12
26. CAPTIVATED (CAT VET PAID)* – a nice surface reading
27. DEED Palindrome
28. PLAYERS P + LAYERS
29. ARTLESS (he)ARTLESS
Down
2. ABASHED ASH in A BED – another one!
3. ASTER (e)ASTER – can “cut” mean “with first letter removed”? Hmm.. For once the flower is not a river.
4. IGNOBLE (GLIB ONE)*
6. SWOOSH WOOS (old meaning of “makes love”) in SH
7. UNWINDING I think this must be U.N. (“world’s”) + WINDING (roundabout)
8. TIDIEST DIES in TIT
9. STRAITJACKETS S + TRAIT (“quality”) + JACKETS
15. EARNESTLY NEST in EARLY
18. INSTALL TINS* + ALL
20. LAUNDER N (end of “turn”) in (Harry) LAUDER.
21. TARGETS TAR GETS
22. SILVER dd – Silverside is a cut of beef
25. PEDAL Hidden

28 Responses to “Guardian 24,724 / Logodaedalus”

  1. mhl says:

    Thanks for the post, Andrew. 10 across is from “the die is cast”, I think.

  2. Andrew says:

    Thanks mhl – I thought about “the die is cast”, but it still seems like a vague reference rather than a definition.

  3. IanP says:

    I suppose if “die is cast” equates to “die = cast” in cryptic terms it works.

    Still, back on track for a good week – LogoD may not be one of the first rank, but he’s no Gordius either.

    But “woos” doesn’t really mean “make love”, either, does it? it means “court”.

  4. Pricklewedge says:

    Thanks for the post. I was under the impression that “to die” was synonymous with “to cast”. 3d threw me off entirely I was mislead by being convinced that it was “Aston” as in glASTONbury… I assumed there was a river Aston somewhere that I had not heard of and 1a and 10a slotted in perfectly…

  5. Pricklewedge says:

    Thanks for the blog – must admit that I thought “to cast” was broadly synonymous with “to die” (at least I’ve heard art fabricators talking about “die-ing (dying?)” bronzes. 3d was my stumbling block – I convinced myself that it was “Aston” from glASTONbury… Just assumed there was a river Aston that I’d not heard of. And then 1a and 10a fitted perfectly…

  6. Shirley says:

    IanP – to woo used to mean “make love” when making love meant to court someone. I think it’s the meaning of making love that has changed not the meaning of woo.

  7. Eileen says:

    Thanks for a very fair blog, Andrew.

    I’ve been looking back and this use of a word in the clue which is then in the answer is absolutely typical of Logodaedalus, the most notorious [for me] examples being ‘be in luck in N. Germany’ for LUBECK and ‘clumsy when giving a ring to a fish’ for OAFISH – both in the same puzzle!

    I agree that 26ac is a nice surface and 14ac was for me a neat piece of misdirection, as I thought I was being asked to remove the first letter from a word meaning ‘followers’. But, like you, I have doubts about ‘cut’ [3dn] meaning the same thing – I would expect that to mean remove the last letter.

    IanP, re 10ac: ‘the die is cast’ does not equate to ‘die = cast’. In Caesar’s famous declaration, ‘Iacta est alea’ ‘Iacta est’ is a verb and means that the die [alea] is / has been cast [thrown]. I thought this was a great surface but it just doesn’t work.

    It’s been a rather topsy-turvy week – I wonder what’s in store for tomorrow!

  8. teesween says:

    Logo has set the occasional good puzzle but this one was, to me, an “oh dear” one. Sloppy clueing, easy anagrams, I certainly don’t rate him close to being in the first team.
    We must be a very old lot around here, nobody even says “Harry Lauder, who’s that”.

  9. Ian W. says:

    What a disappointing end to an otherwise grand week. (I didn’t share most contributors’ complaints about yesterday’s Gordius.) I do like a crossword to take more than five minutes to solve, especially on a Friday. If Rufus is back on Monday, I’ll scream.

  10. Andrew says:

    Eileen, thanks for your research. I don’t mind this “trick” occasionally, as it can be quite nicely misleading, but four times in one puzzle seems a bit much. I quite liked “Be in luck” for LUBECK (though not “in N. Germany” as a def.) as it’s a standard phrase and so leads to a smooth surface.

    With your classical background I hesitate to ask, but are you sure about the word order in the Caesar saying? I’ve always thought it was “alea iacta est”, but I found this source giving it as “iacta alea est”.

  11. Eileen says:

    Congratulations on your research, too, Andrew! I’ve seen the phrase written in various orders. Suetonius [your source] was writing about 150 years after Julius Caesar said it [if he did ;-)] but the beauty of Latin is that the order doesn’t matter – it still means the same thing!

  12. Gareth Rees says:

    10a CAST. Chambers (1988) has the definitions “cast n. a mould” and “die² n. a stamp for impressing coin, etc.” which seem close enough for crossword purposes if not quite synonymous.

  13. Gareth Rees says:

    Since today’s grid was rather under-checked (5-letter words with 2 checks, and 7-letter words with 3 checks etc), I think it was a good idea to have plenty of straightforward clues. For example, for 16a there are well over 100 words matching the pattern .I.T.

  14. Mick H says:

    I always thought it was ‘alea jacta est’, but then Goscinny and Uderzo were writing almost 2,000 years later in French, so Asterix may not be the best source!
    Re 19ac, I wonder whether the phrase ‘knock the living daylights out of’ has anything to do with lights as in in innards.

  15. liz says:

    Thanks for the blog. I got most of the lefthand side out quickly, but took a while to see 9dn, which held me up on the right. (It was one of those situations when you go away and do something else, then come back to the clue and the answer jumps out.)

    26ac was my favourite clue. Also had reservations about 10ac at first, but I think on balance it’s fair.

  16. Derek Lazenby says:

    Didn’t like bits of this one. Too many obsolete parts. Never heard of lights for innards. UN for world? It would be a loose association if the UN actually contained all the countries, but it doesn’t, so it does not represent the world. I’m not young, but woos never meant make love even in my young day all those decades ago, so that is pretty obsolete.

    Having said that, I was quite happy with some of the things others didn’t like, so swings and roundabouts then. For example, why should cut just mean cut off the last letter? You can cut anything anywhere in real life, so why should it have a restricted meaning in a crossword? So, I found ASTER to be pretty obvious.

    I think IanP was saying that if you say “die is cast” then because the word “is” can be used as “equals” the phrase can be rewritten as “die equals cast” which then reads as though it is a synonym definition.

  17. ray says:

    There is a process known as die-casting (e.g. production of die-cast models). Perhaps this is where the closeness appears ?

  18. Testy says:

    Derek, it’s not that an old meaning of “woo” is to “make love”: it’s that “make love” has an old meaning, to wit, to “woo”.
    )\_/(
    (ºvº)
    () ()

  19. muck says:

    19ac DAYLIGHTS. I wondered, with MickH #14, whether this had anything to do with ‘knock the living … out of’ as in a blow to the solar plexus (and therefore an attack on the innards). But, I think the ‘living daylights’ in this phrase refer to being awake.

  20. muck says:

    Re previous comment see:
    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/living-daylights.html

  21. Mr Beaver says:

    Testy – congratulations on spotting an opportunity for the lovely pun, and your ‘emoticowl’ !

  22. liz says:

    re 19ac. Day = Dawn. Lights = innards, specifically lungs. I don’t think it’s mpre complicated than that. Lungs are called lights because they aren’t as heavy as other internal organs. Old offal term.

    Testy — I loved your owl!

  23. Bryan says:

    Off Topic:

    Oh dear, The Grauniad has screwed up again with the Saturday Prize Puzzle #24725.

    The Print Version differs from the Online version and only the PDF version appears OK.

    Bryan

  24. Neil says:

    Liz #22: I agree about 19a.

    Collins agrees with you and my late Mum, who used to buy and boil up ‘lights’ for the cat. These were always lungs, not any old innards. Pretty smelly process!

    Couldn’t find it in Chambers though, Derek.

    My doubt is whether ‘Dawn’s’ can be quite right as a definition of ‘daylights’?

  25. chunter says:

    19ac: Chambers Dictionary (2003 ed) has ‘lights n pl The lungs of an animal (as lighter than the adjoining parts)’.

  26. Neil says:

    Thanks Chunter. 19a.

    Yes, I looked again and found it WAS there in Chambers, but a bit buried amongst a heap of definitions, Sorry Derek!

  27. Derek Lazenby says:

    Another point totally missed, I wasn’t actually bothered which way round you turn woos and make love, the point was that the modern relationship between the two wasn’t that modern, and therefore any other relationship between them was seriously old. Which one changed, or whether both changed, I couldn’t give a monkeys about.

  28. golgonooza says:

    Oh for God’s sake.

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