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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 24,887 (Sat 19 Dec)/Araucaria Christmas Special</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:34:34 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: beermagnet</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99631</link>
		<dc:creator>beermagnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 13:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have here Chambers 9th ed: 
&lt;b&gt;quoist&lt;/b&gt; see &lt;b&gt;queest&lt;/b&gt;
Looking there:
&lt;b&gt;queest&lt;/b&gt; also &lt;b&gt;quest&lt;/b&gt;, &lt;b&gt;quoist&lt;/b&gt; and &lt;b&gt;quist&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;(Scot) n&lt;/i&gt; the ringdove or wood pigeon [See &lt;b&gt;cushat&lt;/b&gt;]
cushat also says &quot;ringdove or wood pigeon&quot; but doesn&#039;t refer back to queest]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have here Chambers 9th ed:<br />
<b>quoist</b> see <b>queest</b><br />
Looking there:<br />
<b>queest</b> also <b>quest</b>, <b>quoist</b> and <b>quist</b> <i>(Scot) n</i> the ringdove or wood pigeon [See <b>cushat</b>]<br />
cushat also says &#8220;ringdove or wood pigeon&#8221; but doesn&#8217;t refer back to queest</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99621</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From a very unexpert Aurucaria Fan -   

OK  about all the explanations with the exception of  QUOIST  . The only one I did not get after about a week .  I assume it is a Scottish Ringdove - did anyone find a dictionary with Quoist in it ???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From a very unexpert Aurucaria Fan &#8211;   </p>
<p>OK  about all the explanations with the exception of  QUOIST  . The only one I did not get after about a week .  I assume it is a Scottish Ringdove &#8211; did anyone find a dictionary with Quoist in it ???</p>
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		<title>By: Eileen</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99579</link>
		<dc:creator>Eileen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 12:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Sil

Oh dear, I&#039;m sorry for muddying the water even further - that was a silly mistake: I did mean to write &#039;return of darkness-with-raptor&#039;, as the clue says! :-(]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sil</p>
<p>Oh dear, I&#8217;m sorry for muddying the water even further &#8211; that was a silly mistake: I did mean to write &#8216;return of darkness-with-raptor&#8217;, as the clue says! <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99577</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 12:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rob, re #22,
It not really common use to take &#039;with&#039; as a container indicator, so there&#039;s my problem. 
Otherwise everything you say is correct, apart from my different view on the order of words as mentioned in the BTW below.
&#039;With&#039; normally tells us to add something to what&#039;s already there.
&#039;Without&#039; wóuld have been a suitable indicator (often used by this setter), so maybe that&#039;s what Araucaria originally wanted?

Reading the clue as:
AMEN (I agree) to (= added to) KRUM (the return of darkness) - leading to AMENEKRUM - with HAWK about (= around),
would lead to the letters of HAWK in the wrong order.

Reading it as:
AMEN to (KRUM with HAWK about), would either lead to AMEN KRUM KWAH or something like AMEN HA(KRUM)WK, depending on the meaning of &#039;about&#039;.

BTW, your (and Eileen&#039;s possible possible) way of looking at it: &#039;return of raptor-with-darkness [about]&#039; is , in my opinion, very different from the opposite thing &#039;return of darkness-with-raptor [about]&#039;(which is what the clue says).

Anyway, I don&#039;t want to make a major point of this, certainly not within the greatness of most of the rest of the crossword.
But I just always want to fully understand a clue.

[The same thing happened to me (and to Rightback) in 2d where Araucaria changed the order of &#039;a.m.&#039; and &#039;all&#039; - which could, I say could, be justified in the end]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob, re #22,<br />
It not really common use to take &#8216;with&#8217; as a container indicator, so there&#8217;s my problem.<br />
Otherwise everything you say is correct, apart from my different view on the order of words as mentioned in the BTW below.<br />
&#8216;With&#8217; normally tells us to add something to what&#8217;s already there.<br />
&#8216;Without&#8217; wóuld have been a suitable indicator (often used by this setter), so maybe that&#8217;s what Araucaria originally wanted?</p>
<p>Reading the clue as:<br />
AMEN (I agree) to (= added to) KRUM (the return of darkness) &#8211; leading to AMENEKRUM &#8211; with HAWK about (= around),<br />
would lead to the letters of HAWK in the wrong order.</p>
<p>Reading it as:<br />
AMEN to (KRUM with HAWK about), would either lead to AMEN KRUM KWAH or something like AMEN HA(KRUM)WK, depending on the meaning of &#8216;about&#8217;.</p>
<p>BTW, your (and Eileen&#8217;s possible possible) way of looking at it: &#8216;return of raptor-with-darkness [about]&#8216; is , in my opinion, very different from the opposite thing &#8216;return of darkness-with-raptor [about]&#8216;(which is what the clue says).</p>
<p>Anyway, I don&#8217;t want to make a major point of this, certainly not within the greatness of most of the rest of the crossword.<br />
But I just always want to fully understand a clue.</p>
<p>[The same thing happened to me (and to Rightback) in 2d where Araucaria changed the order of 'a.m.' and 'all' - which could, I say could, be justified in the end]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99569</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 06:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi – I can’t see the problem with 25ac.

Eileen ~ #18 said:

“I wondered about thinking of it as ‘return of raptor-with-darkness [about] but I know that’s not very good. Wouldn’t it be good if Araucaria were one of those setters who drop by to help clear up this kind of problem?”

But if:

Raptor = Bird of prey = Hawk.
Darkness = Murk
Amen = “So be it” which I think is a valid way of hinting at “I agree” (although when I say it to myself I feel there’s a ‘hint’ of reluctance in said agreement!) then:

Return of Hawk with (including) Darkness = Kw….Krumah
About (around) Amen seems fine to me. Given this was the name (5,6) of a well known person born in 1909 then I would say this was an excellent clue and I doubt if Araucaria himself could add anything to clear it up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi – I can’t see the problem with 25ac.</p>
<p>Eileen ~ #18 said:</p>
<p>“I wondered about thinking of it as ‘return of raptor-with-darkness [about] but I know that’s not very good. Wouldn’t it be good if Araucaria were one of those setters who drop by to help clear up this kind of problem?”</p>
<p>But if:</p>
<p>Raptor = Bird of prey = Hawk.<br />
Darkness = Murk<br />
Amen = “So be it” which I think is a valid way of hinting at “I agree” (although when I say it to myself I feel there’s a ‘hint’ of reluctance in said agreement!) then:</p>
<p>Return of Hawk with (including) Darkness = Kw….Krumah<br />
About (around) Amen seems fine to me. Given this was the name (5,6) of a well known person born in 1909 then I would say this was an excellent clue and I doubt if Araucaria himself could add anything to clear it up.</p>
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		<title>By: Sylvia</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99564</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 03:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil:  Many thanks and HNY to you!   The FT crossword looks interesting and I have struggled for ages to get my printer to print in Landscape without success.   Finally got a printable copy after reducing margins.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil:  Many thanks and HNY to you!   The FT crossword looks interesting and I have struggled for ages to get my printer to print in Landscape without success.   Finally got a printable copy after reducing margins.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99552</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Liz, one final word about this.
I am totally convinced now re Helen (as I am re Hyannis).
If my PinC would have been around, she wouldn&#039;t have given me the chance to make a point of it. These things are due to my non-English background, so do crop up every now and then (after which I sometimes feel a bit silly)- but I learn a lot from it!
(BTW, Chunter&#039;s mH unit is just brilliant, I think)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Liz, one final word about this.<br />
I am totally convinced now re Helen (as I am re Hyannis).<br />
If my PinC would have been around, she wouldn&#8217;t have given me the chance to make a point of it. These things are due to my non-English background, so do crop up every now and then (after which I sometimes feel a bit silly)- but I learn a lot from it!<br />
(BTW, Chunter&#8217;s mH unit is just brilliant, I think)</p>
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		<title>By: liz</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99547</link>
		<dc:creator>liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 20:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, Sil :-). I just didn&#039;t think the quotation was that obscure -- the play isn&#039;t widely read, I&#039;m sure, but the quote crops up quite a lot! HNY to you too!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Sil <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> . I just didn&#8217;t think the quotation was that obscure &#8212; the play isn&#8217;t widely read, I&#8217;m sure, but the quote crops up quite a lot! HNY to you too!</p>
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		<title>By: Eileen</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99546</link>
		<dc:creator>Eileen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=13588#comment-99546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for that, Chunter - lovely :-)

Although I haven&#039;t read or seen the play, I did think the quotation was better known than it appears to be [and it was in rightback&#039;s link].

Sil, I don&#039;t think we&#039;re going to get a satisfactory explanation of 25ac. I wondered about thinking of it as &#039;return of raptor-with-darkness [about] but I know that&#039;s not very good. Wouldn&#039;t it be good if Araucaria were one of those setters who drop by to help clear up this kind of problem?

I&#039;m with liz in feeling rather sorry that this Christmas special was published so early [I know that it&#039;s all to do with the way Christmas fell this year.] I tried to keep it but managed to resist only until the Saturday afternoon, which means that it&#039;s a couple of weeks since I did it and it&#039;s not easy to remember one&#039;s thought processes. There have been a lot of puzzles in between!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that, Chunter &#8211; lovely <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Although I haven&#8217;t read or seen the play, I did think the quotation was better known than it appears to be [and it was in rightback's link].</p>
<p>Sil, I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re going to get a satisfactory explanation of 25ac. I wondered about thinking of it as &#8216;return of raptor-with-darkness [about] but I know that&#8217;s not very good. Wouldn&#8217;t it be good if Araucaria were one of those setters who drop by to help clear up this kind of problem?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m with liz in feeling rather sorry that this Christmas special was published so early [I know that it's all to do with the way Christmas fell this year.] I tried to keep it but managed to resist only until the Saturday afternoon, which means that it&#8217;s a couple of weeks since I did it and it&#8217;s not easy to remember one&#8217;s thought processes. There have been a lot of puzzles in between!</p>
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		<title>By: Chunter</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/01/01/guardian-24877-sat-19-decaraucaria-christmas-special/#comment-99545</link>
		<dc:creator>Chunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[29dn. The milliHelen (mH) unit has been defined as the amount of beauty required to launch one ship.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>29dn. The milliHelen (mH) unit has been defined as the amount of beauty required to launch one ship.</p>
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