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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,022 / Araucaria</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-114189</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-114189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there such a word as &#039;ernest&#039;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there such a word as &#8216;ernest&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: mhl</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110456</link>
		<dc:creator>mhl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110456</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Trench Adviser: goodness - I didn&#039;t do that puzzle myself (or apparently 24,054, which clued the same word)

I wish that the Guardian took the same care over the words and sentiments that are used in the crossword as they do in the rest of the newspaper.  Of course, I understand completely that the world of the crossword is a bizarre alternative universe (as I think Sandy Balfour described it?) but it would be a trivial matter to just be a bit more careful to not cause offence.  There have been four or five such issues over the last couple of years that I can remember off-hand.

Unfortunately, the crossword editor&#039;s past response to such questions is just completely inadequate:

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/crosswords/2004/feb/02/crossword-editor-update

Yes, it&#039;s difficult to know where to draw the line, but I don&#039;t think that someone who would defend the clue &quot;Are they capped in Ulster?&quot; on the basis that it&#039;s a &quot;joke&quot; is anywhere near drawing it in the right place.

So, my minor complaint about the clue in this puzzle should really be seen in the context of a more general problem that I have with the Guardian crossword in recent years.  (I say it&#039;s a minor complaint since in this case the surface reading as a stereotype is obviously ridiculous, and clouded by the odd grammar that the clue&#039;s construction forces.) 

(Incidentally, I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t have much time for complaints about &quot;political correctness&quot;, which is too often used as a pejorative term for honest attempts to avoid causing personal offence.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trench Adviser: goodness &#8211; I didn&#8217;t do that puzzle myself (or apparently 24,054, which clued the same word)</p>
<p>I wish that the Guardian took the same care over the words and sentiments that are used in the crossword as they do in the rest of the newspaper.  Of course, I understand completely that the world of the crossword is a bizarre alternative universe (as I think Sandy Balfour described it?) but it would be a trivial matter to just be a bit more careful to not cause offence.  There have been four or five such issues over the last couple of years that I can remember off-hand.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the crossword editor&#8217;s past response to such questions is just completely inadequate:</p>
<p>  <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/crosswords/2004/feb/02/crossword-editor-update" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/crosswords/2004/feb/02/crossword-editor-update</a></p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s difficult to know where to draw the line, but I don&#8217;t think that someone who would defend the clue &#8220;Are they capped in Ulster?&#8221; on the basis that it&#8217;s a &#8220;joke&#8221; is anywhere near drawing it in the right place.</p>
<p>So, my minor complaint about the clue in this puzzle should really be seen in the context of a more general problem that I have with the Guardian crossword in recent years.  (I say it&#8217;s a minor complaint since in this case the surface reading as a stereotype is obviously ridiculous, and clouded by the odd grammar that the clue&#8217;s construction forces.) </p>
<p>(Incidentally, I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t have much time for complaints about &#8220;political correctness&#8221;, which is too often used as a pejorative term for honest attempts to avoid causing personal offence.)</p>
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		<title>By: Trench Adviser</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110449</link>
		<dc:creator>Trench Adviser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Araucaria used &#039;mulatto&#039; in April. I think that is more questionable, yet there was no controversy at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Araucaria used &#8216;mulatto&#8217; in April. I think that is more questionable, yet there was no controversy at all.</p>
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		<title>By: ernie</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110242</link>
		<dc:creator>ernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 01:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, mhl.

Well done, Araucaria.

23d REMUS perfectly acceptable.

Laughed at 17a BOGART.

1a SECULARISATION very good, but I failed to get it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, mhl.</p>
<p>Well done, Araucaria.</p>
<p>23d REMUS perfectly acceptable.</p>
<p>Laughed at 17a BOGART.</p>
<p>1a SECULARISATION very good, but I failed to get it.</p>
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		<title>By: mhl</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110207</link>
		<dc:creator>mhl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 09:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scarpia: no problem - I should have been more clear in the post, but I had to write it very fast yesterday and (stupidly) didn&#039;t anticipate that there might be other interpretations of what I&#039;d said.

I should have said more about RAREE, but on Wikipedia it redirects to a rather Not Safe For Work page about Peep Shows, and I didn&#039;t have time to find a better reference.  The OED gives these definitions for &quot;raree-show&quot;:

&lt;em&gt;1. A set of pictures or a puppet show exhibited in a portable box for public entertainment; a peep show. Now hist.

2. a. In extended use: an exhibition, show, or spectacle of any kind, esp. one regarded as lurid, vulgar, or populist.  b. As a mass noun: spectacular or lurid display. Now rare.&lt;/em&gt;

I hadn&#039;t heard of RENDSBURG either, rather disappointingly, since I thought my knowledge of German cities was pretty good from playing the excellent board game &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Grid_%28board_game%29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Power Grid&quot;&lt;/a&gt;&#160;:)

Rishi: I don&#039;t like &quot;of&quot; as connector much either, but I think it just deserves a shrug in this case - I didn&#039;t see the print version, but I don&#039;t think &quot;on&quot; would work in the surface reading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scarpia: no problem &#8211; I should have been more clear in the post, but I had to write it very fast yesterday and (stupidly) didn&#8217;t anticipate that there might be other interpretations of what I&#8217;d said.</p>
<p>I should have said more about RAREE, but on Wikipedia it redirects to a rather Not Safe For Work page about Peep Shows, and I didn&#8217;t have time to find a better reference.  The OED gives these definitions for &#8220;raree-show&#8221;:</p>
<p><em>1. A set of pictures or a puppet show exhibited in a portable box for public entertainment; a peep show. Now hist.</p>
<p>2. a. In extended use: an exhibition, show, or spectacle of any kind, esp. one regarded as lurid, vulgar, or populist.  b. As a mass noun: spectacular or lurid display. Now rare.</em></p>
<p>I hadn&#8217;t heard of RENDSBURG either, rather disappointingly, since I thought my knowledge of German cities was pretty good from playing the excellent board game <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Grid_%28board_game%29" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Power Grid&#8221;</a>&nbsp;:)</p>
<p>Rishi: I don&#8217;t like &#8220;of&#8221; as connector much either, but I think it just deserves a shrug in this case &#8211; I didn&#8217;t see the print version, but I don&#8217;t think &#8220;on&#8221; would work in the surface reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Coffee</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110186</link>
		<dc:creator>Coffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 02:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110186</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have to agree with Scarpia, 


Lots of good stuff here which has somehow become overshadowed by the debate over 23 down.

Loved the inter connection between 10,11,14.27 across and 5 down.

- Also liked 1a and 1d  -more than what I see of Paul&#039;s today, at which I&#039;ve just had a glance....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to agree with Scarpia, </p>
<p>Lots of good stuff here which has somehow become overshadowed by the debate over 23 down.</p>
<p>Loved the inter connection between 10,11,14.27 across and 5 down.</p>
<p>- Also liked 1a and 1d  -more than what I see of Paul&#8217;s today, at which I&#8217;ve just had a glance&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Rishi</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110185</link>
		<dc:creator>Rishi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 01:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re
&lt;i&gt;4a Make new disposition, almost completely, of king on back row (4,4)REAR RAN(ge)+ K&lt;/i&gt;

What&#039;s &#039;of&#039; doing there? Can it be taken as a connector? I don&#039;t think so!

Is it a typo for &#039;on&#039;? What was the print version?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re<br />
<i>4a Make new disposition, almost completely, of king on back row (4,4)REAR RAN(ge)+ K</i></p>
<p>What&#8217;s &#8216;of&#8217; doing there? Can it be taken as a connector? I don&#8217;t think so!</p>
<p>Is it a typo for &#8216;on&#8217;? What was the print version?</p>
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		<title>By: Scarpia</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110179</link>
		<dc:creator>Scarpia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 22:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110179</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mhl:
 I apologise - my comment was influenced by the (very large amount)of other posts and I mistakenly misconstrued your original comment.As you also say, enough said about this matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mhl:<br />
 I apologise &#8211; my comment was influenced by the (very large amount)of other posts and I mistakenly misconstrued your original comment.As you also say, enough said about this matter.</p>
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		<title>By: tupu</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110177</link>
		<dc:creator>tupu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 22:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Noel. I think the problem if any is not that it has a clear surface reading but one that might possibly be, and has been, read in a negative way. In the end it is surely at most an unhappily worded clue (see Bill Taylor @ 19 for a troublefree alternative) from a much loved, positively avuncular setter, designed to lead us to the harmless answer. I for one do not consider that it merits any letter to the editor or other such intervention beyond the friendly interchanges between &#039;logophile&#039; bloggers here.  

Fn re Avuncular. The word means &#039;with the quality of an uncle&#039;. It may be purely descriptive of the genealogical condition of being someone&#039;s mother&#039;s brother or father&#039;s brother etc. And/Or it may refer to the quality of such a relationship, and here it usually has positive connotations though there are plenty of wicked uncles about in life and literature. Originally, for what it is worth, the Latin term &#039;avunculus&#039; was literally &#039;a little grandfather&#039; and I seem to remember it referred only to the relatively friendly mother&#039;s brother in contrast to the authoriarian father in patriarchal Roman society.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Noel. I think the problem if any is not that it has a clear surface reading but one that might possibly be, and has been, read in a negative way. In the end it is surely at most an unhappily worded clue (see Bill Taylor @ 19 for a troublefree alternative) from a much loved, positively avuncular setter, designed to lead us to the harmless answer. I for one do not consider that it merits any letter to the editor or other such intervention beyond the friendly interchanges between &#8216;logophile&#8217; bloggers here.  </p>
<p>Fn re Avuncular. The word means &#8216;with the quality of an uncle&#8217;. It may be purely descriptive of the genealogical condition of being someone&#8217;s mother&#8217;s brother or father&#8217;s brother etc. And/Or it may refer to the quality of such a relationship, and here it usually has positive connotations though there are plenty of wicked uncles about in life and literature. Originally, for what it is worth, the Latin term &#8216;avunculus&#8217; was literally &#8216;a little grandfather&#8217; and I seem to remember it referred only to the relatively friendly mother&#8217;s brother in contrast to the authoriarian father in patriarchal Roman society.</p>
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		<title>By: noel</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/05/28/guardian-25022-araucaria/#comment-110171</link>
		<dc:creator>noel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 20:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=17855#comment-110171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Without &#039;discussing&#039; 23d, I&#039;d just like to add another &#039;no&#039; vote - I found it had a clear racist surface reading and should have been edited out. I shall write to the crossword editor about this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without &#8216;discussing&#8217; 23d, I&#8217;d just like to add another &#8216;no&#8217; vote &#8211; I found it had a clear racist surface reading and should have been edited out. I shall write to the crossword editor about this.</p>
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