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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,077 (Sat 31 Jul)/Pasquale &#8211; Past masters</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: rightback</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116906</link>
		<dc:creator>rightback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think perhaps I have missed previous exchanges involving tupu on this subject, so my apologies if I misunderstood your post! But you make a very interesting point with regard to characters such as &#201; being actually different &lt;i&gt;letters&lt;/i&gt; from E (rather than the same letter but with an accent).

I was further interested by your parenthetic &#039;unlike the UK&#039;, because in my adopted country of Wales the alphabet is different and (say) &#039;dd&#039; is a letter in its own right. I can think of very few Welsh words used in English, but something like EISTEDDFOD would be (10) in an English puzzle and (9) in a Welsh one (with &#039;dd&#039; entered in a single square). So not a straightforward issue, but I guess the convention is that any word translated (or transliterated) into English will use only characters from the English alphabet (possibly with accents or other diacritics), and that these are the letters (with any diacritics dropped) used for crosswording purposes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think perhaps I have missed previous exchanges involving tupu on this subject, so my apologies if I misunderstood your post! But you make a very interesting point with regard to characters such as &#201; being actually different <i>letters</i> from E (rather than the same letter but with an accent).</p>
<p>I was further interested by your parenthetic &#8216;unlike the UK&#8217;, because in my adopted country of Wales the alphabet is different and (say) &#8216;dd&#8217; is a letter in its own right. I can think of very few Welsh words used in English, but something like EISTEDDFOD would be (10) in an English puzzle and (9) in a Welsh one (with &#8216;dd&#8217; entered in a single square). So not a straightforward issue, but I guess the convention is that any word translated (or transliterated) into English will use only characters from the English alphabet (possibly with accents or other diacritics), and that these are the letters (with any diacritics dropped) used for crosswording purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116897</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, rb, for your feedback.

I didn&#039;t make a point of CONNE[d] versus CONNÉ.
The pronunciation is indeed not important in Crosswordland [and my remark on that was solely addressed to tupu].
Just like you, I think that the &#039;accent aigu&#039; is something to think about.
I come from a country in which - under the influence of France and unlike in the UK - the É is part of the language.
Personally, I consider É as a character different from E.
I know and understand that, in Crosswordland we don&#039;t look at punctuation marks, apostrophes and accents etc., but my background does not always feel comfortable about how we treat the latter.
Anyway, soit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, rb, for your feedback.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t make a point of CONNE[d] versus CONNÉ.<br />
The pronunciation is indeed not important in Crosswordland [and my remark on that was solely addressed to tupu].<br />
Just like you, I think that the &#8216;accent aigu&#8217; is something to think about.<br />
I come from a country in which &#8211; under the influence of France and unlike in the UK &#8211; the É is part of the language.<br />
Personally, I consider É as a character different from E.<br />
I know and understand that, in Crosswordland we don&#8217;t look at punctuation marks, apostrophes and accents etc., but my background does not always feel comfortable about how we treat the latter.<br />
Anyway, soit.</p>
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		<title>By: rightback</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116886</link>
		<dc:creator>rightback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116886</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the comments re clerestory vs clearstory (#2, #3, #8 etc), although having consulted various references I&#039;m still not totally convinced that these are English/American alternatives respectively and wonder if the &#039;American&#039; in the clue was just to guide the solver away from &#039;clearstoreys&#039;.

With regard to the indication of the letters CONNE in CLOISONN&#201; (#16), the difference in pronunciation is surely not an issue although the accent is perhaps more arguable. The convention is that these are simply ignored in the grid and in wordplay (although occasionally a clue will indicate an accented letter), which is fine except that it doesn&#039;t seem quite right to me if a checked letter requires an accent in its across answer but not its down answer or vice versa (as in CLOISONN&#201; vs CORVETTE here). And just occasionally, accents are a critical part of a puzzle - at least one &#039;Ascot Gold Cup&#039; winner (for the best Listener puzzle of the year) made brilliant use of them (I won&#039;t say which in case anyone reading this should stumble across it one day).

ChrisUnemployed (#34), any use of Google or other references will be during blog-writing. The solving time refers to the point at which I feel I can do more on the grid (without references). If I have to correct anything subsequently (e.g. had I guessed &#039;Nalier&#039; instead of LANIER at 10ac), I indicate these mistakes after giving the solving time. I hope that clears things up, and assure you that I haven&#039;t yet ventured into blood doping. Watching Vinokourov &quot;win&quot; Stage 13 of this year&#039;s Tour de France left a somewhat sour taste.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments re clerestory vs clearstory (#2, #3, #8 etc), although having consulted various references I&#8217;m still not totally convinced that these are English/American alternatives respectively and wonder if the &#8216;American&#8217; in the clue was just to guide the solver away from &#8216;clearstoreys&#8217;.</p>
<p>With regard to the indication of the letters CONNE in CLOISONN&#201; (#16), the difference in pronunciation is surely not an issue although the accent is perhaps more arguable. The convention is that these are simply ignored in the grid and in wordplay (although occasionally a clue will indicate an accented letter), which is fine except that it doesn&#8217;t seem quite right to me if a checked letter requires an accent in its across answer but not its down answer or vice versa (as in CLOISONN&#201; vs CORVETTE here). And just occasionally, accents are a critical part of a puzzle &#8211; at least one &#8216;Ascot Gold Cup&#8217; winner (for the best Listener puzzle of the year) made brilliant use of them (I won&#8217;t say which in case anyone reading this should stumble across it one day).</p>
<p>ChrisUnemployed (#34), any use of Google or other references will be during blog-writing. The solving time refers to the point at which I feel I can do more on the grid (without references). If I have to correct anything subsequently (e.g. had I guessed &#8216;Nalier&#8217; instead of LANIER at 10ac), I indicate these mistakes after giving the solving time. I hope that clears things up, and assure you that I haven&#8217;t yet ventured into blood doping. Watching Vinokourov &#8220;win&#8221; Stage 13 of this year&#8217;s Tour de France left a somewhat sour taste.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisUnemployed</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116831</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisUnemployed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;...C[o]USINS – I thought of this early on ...&quot;

but the puzzle only took you 12 minutes, so does &#039;early on&#039; really apply?

Your timings, as u admit using scientific assistance (ie Google) are as fraudulent as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Vinokourov in the 2007 Tour.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;C[o]USINS – I thought of this early on &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>but the puzzle only took you 12 minutes, so does &#8216;early on&#8217; really apply?</p>
<p>Your timings, as u admit using scientific assistance (ie Google) are as fraudulent as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Vinokourov" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Vinokourov</a> in the 2007 Tour.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116673</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2010 00:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the insight, Huw.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the insight, Huw.</p>
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		<title>By: Huw Powell</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116670</link>
		<dc:creator>Huw Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 23:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116670</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, and Claire @ 20, my feeling is there are three levels of solving - the hardest of course, is using no aids outside one&#039;s head.  Then there is an intermediate, using one or some reference works to find or check answers (and that two sub levels - finding vs. checking).  I have a large atlas with tiny print leaning against my table leg, a (Webster&#039;s) dictionary on one chair and a Bible on the other.  In the old days I would use them as much as I wanted, since otherwise I would virtually never complete a puzzle, with occasional trips out to the office to use the internet to verify truly difficult answers.  Since then, though, I&#039;ve added a laptop to the table, and feel comfortable going to the third level, which is to have google and wikipedia at my fingertips.  They really aren&#039;t much different than using books, since you still have to figure out what to search for or research.  One advantage is for geographic terms I no longer need to triple-stack my reading glasses!

Anyone who ever takes a look at my edits to wp might notice a vague correspondence to topics raised in guardian puzzle clues, although the timing is a bit off since I rarely do puzzles on the day I print them.

I actually think that level 3 (using the net) adds an extra layer of enjoyment - the &quot;distraction&quot; of reading entire wp (and other) articles on interesting topics.  I know a lot more about cricket, for instance, than I did a year ago.  I also think I memorized a list of world war two aeroplanes somewhere along the way.

But in the end, I think whatever aids one is comfortable with are fine.  If puzzles get too easy, restrict oneself.  If they get too hard, loosen up a bit.  I usually try to get as much as I can in working &quot;alone&quot;, and then add research to chase the harder clues.  Yesterday&#039;s Prize puzzle had me staring at a blank sheet for a really long time, and the first clue I finally got was a term I remember learning when researching some other clue in the past.

Just don&#039;t brag about solving at a more difficult level than one really uses, that would be rude ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Claire @ 20, my feeling is there are three levels of solving &#8211; the hardest of course, is using no aids outside one&#8217;s head.  Then there is an intermediate, using one or some reference works to find or check answers (and that two sub levels &#8211; finding vs. checking).  I have a large atlas with tiny print leaning against my table leg, a (Webster&#8217;s) dictionary on one chair and a Bible on the other.  In the old days I would use them as much as I wanted, since otherwise I would virtually never complete a puzzle, with occasional trips out to the office to use the internet to verify truly difficult answers.  Since then, though, I&#8217;ve added a laptop to the table, and feel comfortable going to the third level, which is to have google and wikipedia at my fingertips.  They really aren&#8217;t much different than using books, since you still have to figure out what to search for or research.  One advantage is for geographic terms I no longer need to triple-stack my reading glasses!</p>
<p>Anyone who ever takes a look at my edits to wp might notice a vague correspondence to topics raised in guardian puzzle clues, although the timing is a bit off since I rarely do puzzles on the day I print them.</p>
<p>I actually think that level 3 (using the net) adds an extra layer of enjoyment &#8211; the &#8220;distraction&#8221; of reading entire wp (and other) articles on interesting topics.  I know a lot more about cricket, for instance, than I did a year ago.  I also think I memorized a list of world war two aeroplanes somewhere along the way.</p>
<p>But in the end, I think whatever aids one is comfortable with are fine.  If puzzles get too easy, restrict oneself.  If they get too hard, loosen up a bit.  I usually try to get as much as I can in working &#8220;alone&#8221;, and then add research to chase the harder clues.  Yesterday&#8217;s Prize puzzle had me staring at a blank sheet for a really long time, and the first clue I finally got was a term I remember learning when researching some other clue in the past.</p>
<p>Just don&#8217;t brag about solving at a more difficult level than one really uses, that would be rude <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Huw Powell</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116669</link>
		<dc:creator>Huw Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 23:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There were a few nice clues, I thought, with a fun anagram at 14 among them.  I also liked 7 and 8.  I guessed at 10 early on from the obvious anagram fodder and wikipedia taught me they were a family of court musicians, and decided to ink in 19 due to the musical theme, but missed 2 and 22.

In fact, I missed almost the entire SW corner, with only the obvious 24 and 18 and the end of 4 intruding on its &quot;perfect&quot; unmarred state.

So, some little bits of fun, but a tough row to hoe.  Thanks for the explanations, rightback, to Pasquale, since it&#039;s always good to face a real stumper once in a while.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There were a few nice clues, I thought, with a fun anagram at 14 among them.  I also liked 7 and 8.  I guessed at 10 early on from the obvious anagram fodder and wikipedia taught me they were a family of court musicians, and decided to ink in 19 due to the musical theme, but missed 2 and 22.</p>
<p>In fact, I missed almost the entire SW corner, with only the obvious 24 and 18 and the end of 4 intruding on its &#8220;perfect&#8221; unmarred state.</p>
<p>So, some little bits of fun, but a tough row to hoe.  Thanks for the explanations, rightback, to Pasquale, since it&#8217;s always good to face a real stumper once in a while.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulG</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116600</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 00:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dull, dull, dull. No humour, no interest, obscure theme. I agree with some comments above -yes, like an academic exercise, but pointless. Not a good Saturday puzzle. Let&#039;s hope we don&#039;t get the Don on Saturdays too often.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dull, dull, dull. No humour, no interest, obscure theme. I agree with some comments above -yes, like an academic exercise, but pointless. Not a good Saturday puzzle. Let&#8217;s hope we don&#8217;t get the Don on Saturdays too often.</p>
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		<title>By: Scarpia</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116599</link>
		<dc:creator>Scarpia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 00:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks rightback.
I really enjoyed this puzzle.In fact I love puzzles with unusual vocabulary and esoteric themes.As already stated all clues were fair.
I knew of Lanier as the first holder of the post of MOTKM and also knew Cusins as he composed a concert overture called &quot;Les Travailleurs de la Mer&quot;.Significant for me as the original novel on which it is based,was written and is set in my island home.
Claire @20  I only use the internet as a (very) last resort,but I have amassed  quite a library of reference
books over the years.
Sidey @17  You will find all the MOTKM in the Oxford Dictionary of Music.I picked up my paperback copy for a couple of quid from a charity shop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks rightback.<br />
I really enjoyed this puzzle.In fact I love puzzles with unusual vocabulary and esoteric themes.As already stated all clues were fair.<br />
I knew of Lanier as the first holder of the post of MOTKM and also knew Cusins as he composed a concert overture called &#8220;Les Travailleurs de la Mer&#8221;.Significant for me as the original novel on which it is based,was written and is set in my island home.<br />
Claire @20  I only use the internet as a (very) last resort,but I have amassed  quite a library of reference<br />
books over the years.<br />
Sidey @17  You will find all the MOTKM in the Oxford Dictionary of Music.I picked up my paperback copy for a couple of quid from a charity shop.</p>
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		<title>By: rrc</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/08/07/guardian-25077-sat-31-julpasquale-past-masters/#comment-116591</link>
		<dc:creator>rrc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=19679#comment-116591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I started the crossword in the morning, had the day in London, then completed it in the evening.  I had googled cusins early on and to no avail.    Later on the evening when I had discovered a list of music masters I was somewhat irritated then to find his name there.  I thought the theme was obscure although clued fairly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started the crossword in the morning, had the day in London, then completed it in the evening.  I had googled cusins early on and to no avail.    Later on the evening when I had discovered a list of music masters I was somewhat irritated then to find his name there.  I thought the theme was obscure although clued fairly.</p>
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