Comments on: Guardian 25,089 (Sat 14 Aug)/Paul – Inspect a rebus

By: Martin H

Martin H — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:38:38 +0000

tupu – I’ve posted a reply on the General Crossword Discussion at 358

By: Sil van den Hoek

Sil van den Hoek — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:40:04 +0000

“Sil showed a deep understanding of what is going on and simply didn’t like it” (#31)

Well, more or less – yes.
[(1) I smiled when I saw what's going on (2) I instantly found all of them (3) it didn't stand in the way of solving the puzzle, although I think that according to the rules there should have been a 'warning' in whatever form without giving it all away]

But I can’t take this ‘device’ too seriously, and see it just as a one-off gag.
What if this Wednesday for example Gordius would have this clue:
There! A dry way to get information not immediately clear (4,7,3,5)

By: tupu

tupu — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:46:28 +0000

Hi Martin

Thanks. Forgive me if I get all theoretical about that too. According to Jakobsen, there are two main types of ‘association’ which he calls metaphor and metonymy (borrowing from but slightly altering the typical meanings of two figures of speech).

‘Metaphor’ for him is an association through similarity or opposition (opposite meanings imply each other). ‘Metonymy’ is a more arbitrary association through custom and contingency.
Association and substitution of mind for brain is thus metaphoric in this sense.

A typical metonymic assocition for him would be that between throne or crown and monarchy where one is again substitutable for the other. The association of Oliver and Stone and other well know names seems to me to be of this type. I await ‘another day’ to hear why you don’t approve – perhaps because it is not as generaly known as other examples?

The two forms lie at the heart of every level of language from phonology to discourse and also of symbolism and ‘magic’. A sorcerer who sticks pins in a doll is using a metaphoric connection and Medea burning Jason’s clothing is using a metonymic one.

By: tupu

tupu — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:30:46 +0000

Hi Eileen
Thanks. I like the surface!

By: Eileen

Eileen — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:07:01 +0000

PS, tupu

Apologies – your clue didn’t have ‘in’ either!

By: Eileen

Eileen — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:01:21 +0000

Hi tupu

I don’t feel so strongly as Martin H about first names for second names but none of Paul’s clues actually uses the word ‘in’, which is what makes them so devillish. How about ‘a fixed gate’?

By: Martin H

Martin H — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:32:03 +0000

Ah, ‘set in stone’ – neatly done tupu, but I’m afraid it doesn’t get my seal of approval because it clues a second name with a first name – one of my pet hates. But that discussion is for another day!

By: tupu

tupu — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:02:25 +0000

Hi Martin H @30, Davy @25, and Biggles @28 and Scarpia @29

Sorry if my own entry @26 was unclear and too theoretical for this site, but my sympathies are with your balanced statements.

Of course it is ultimately a matter of opinion. Sil showed a deep understanding of what is going on and simply didn’t like it.

ps I felt quite pleased with my attempt at clueing ‘set in stone’ but never mind!

By: Martin H

Martin H — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:25:03 +0000

So you find a clue apparently without a definition, solve it – probably from crossing letters. Bit of a mystery. Then there’s another, and another – what do you do? Get in a huff or play the game? I think some solvers lay too much store by definitions. If the setter gives you enough to put the right words in the grid, without ambiguity, that should be enough. I completed the grid still scratching my head until someone else pointed out what was going on. My fault, not Paul’s.

By: Scarpia

Scarpia — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:16:49 +0000

Thanks rb.
Took me a while to twig what was going on here.Got HAND IN GLOVE from check letters and enumeration and thought the M might be some cryptic reference to Morrissey!
When the proverbial penny did finally drop I had to admire Paul’s cheek.I think you could fairly say that is pushing libertarianism to it’s limits.I don’t think it’s a device that could be used this way too often,as once you know what’s going on the clues were pretty easy to solve.
Favourite clue for me,7 down.