Never knowingly undersolved.

Guardian 25,134 – Orlando

Posted by manehi on October 6th, 2010


A pleasant challenge from Orlando with a cute mini-theme around “11”. 14a, 16 and 17 were especially nice.

9 HINDEMITH HIND=back + EMI=record company + TH[e]
10 OPRAH rev(HARPO) Marx
11 LATERAL LATER=Succeeding + AL[l]=”almost totally”
12 VENTNOR A seaside resort. VENT=Opening + NO.=number + [singe]R
13 EMBED =plant. MBE=award inside E[rasmus] D[arwin]
14 TWO-TIMERS TWO TIMES table around R[ight]
16 ONE AFTER ANOTHER double def, I suppose.
19 YELLOWFIN YELL + (now if)*
21 FIRST F[ollowing] (e.g. biblical verses) + IR[ish] + ST=saint
22 UNEARTH (a hunter)*
23 BRONZES BR[itish] + ONZE=French 11 + S[mall]
24 DRESS double def, “Garb for bride” and “groom”
25 ALL AT ONCE A[rthur] + (Lancelot)*
1 CHALCEDONY (Cyclone had)*
3 SEE RED SE[v]ERED, where v=5
4 RILL =burn=small stream. [b]RILL
5 CHEVROTAIN A small goat-like mamal. (on the vicar)*
6 JOAN MIRO JO + (Marion)*
7 FRINGE Refers to “The Surrey with the Fringe on Top“, a number from Oklahoma!. RING=band inside F[arnham] and E[well] (both towns in Surrey).
8 CHAR double def
14 TWELFTH MAN Follows the 11th, and needs “one off” to play.
15 STRATHSPEY A dance. (shyster apt)*
17 FLOURISH A dusty miller would be FLOUR-ISH.
18 HORIZONS Where earth and sky appear to meet. cHORIZO minus c for cold + N[orth] and S[outh] poles.
20 LIEDER sounds like “leader”=kaiser
21 FLOATY FLOAT + [Jul]Y=”Fourth of July”
22 URDU Hidden in MonsieUR DUmas
23 BULB rev(BLUB)

37 Responses to “Guardian 25,134 – Orlando”

  1. NeilW says:

    Thanks, manehi. As you say, pleasant enough, perhaps more of a Monday puzzle.

    I dont know if it’s been done before but I liked 25ac very much. No doubt later on there will be the usual discussion on the pronunciation of LIEDER!

  2. grandpuzzler says:

    Thanks to Orlando and mhl. Finished this puzzle in under an hour which is excellent for me. I have to confess that I didn’t do the Funky Strathspey in college in the 60’s.

  3. grandpuzzler says:

    Oops. Sorry manehi. Now I know why there is a Preview feature.

  4. Bryan says:

    Many thanks Manehi I rather struggled with this but, in the process, I discovered that Miro was a woman!

    I already knew her surname but never her forename.

    Thanks Orlando for this enlightenment.

    I now wonder if there are any other famous women artists who have successfully masqueraded as men?

  5. Andrew says:

    Thanks Manehi – I enjoyed this: quite a few smiles along the way.

    Bryan, am I missing a joke? Miro was a man! Joan is a common Catalan male name – the equivalent of John, I think (= Johannes etc).

  6. Andrew says:

    PS I didn’t notice the homophone in 20dn when I solved the puzzle – I thought it was just a cryptic definition. With the added enlightenment I see it’s a very clue.

  7. Dave Ellison says:

    Thanks, manehi; I failed to get 21 down, thought it must be FROTHY or FROSTY, neither of which would fit. I am a bit surprised FLOATY is a word.

    There were some hard words to fit to the letters today (12a __N_N_R, 14d __E_F_H, 15d), and I had not heard of 5d.

    I thought 20d LIEDER was cleverly clued for a change.

    Bryan, I am pretty convinced Joan Miro was never a woman – see manehi’s link.

  8. tupu says:

    Thanks manehi and Orlando.

    Very enjoyable with many good clues.

    I liked 10a, 14a, 2d, 4d (good misleading link to 8), 7d, and especially 17d and 18d.

    I had to check chevrotain.

    I’ll take the bait. What’s the problem with the pronunciation of lieder? ‘Just take me to them, Franz!’ as the musical Martian said.

    Another tichy comment from Bryan – cf. his ‘pangram’ re Araucaria’s last alphabetical.

  9. Kathryn's Dad says:

    Many thanks, manehi. One or two unusual words, but generally on the easy side. Good puzzle – I especially liked HORIZONS, ONE AFTER ANOTHER and ALL AT ONCE.

  10. liz says:

    Thanks, manehi. I’ve never come across 1dn, 5dn or 15dn, which made these anagrams difficult for me — needed the check button! Also came a cropper on 21dn — I had FROTHY for no better reason than it fit. But no quibbles with FLOATY as a word — a ‘floaty’ dress, for example.

  11. tupu says:

    Re Miro

    Like Manuel, who was also from Barcelona, ‘I know nothing’ about the extent he considered himself a Catalonian rather than a Spaniard.

  12. Stella Heath says:

    I had to make up 1ac. ( and more or less invent the anagrams at 5 and 15d, but apart from that, this was quite gettable.

    Great surface at 25ac. :)

    Thanks Manehi and Orlando

  13. tupu says:

    Hi Stella

    I too had trouble at first with Strathspey, and thought it must end in ‘step’, but then I remembered a long and instructive discussion (in an Araucaria puzzle blog) earlier in the year.

  14. Eileen says:

    Thanks for the blog, manehi, and Orlando for the puzzle.

    1dn and 5dn were the anagrams I didn’t know.

    Hi Stella and tupu

    It was I who introduced you to the Strathspey in this puzzle:

    Here’s the dance again:

  15. liz says:

    Eileen — re Strathspey, I should pay more attention :-)

  16. duncandisorderly says:

    did anyone else have “train” in for 24ac & get in a mess because of it? no? just me then….

    re “lieder”, the general rule with german I/E combinations is to pronounce the second vowel. so “leader”, but “stein” would rhyme with “line”.


    p.s. typo in 14d solution, manehi.

  17. tupu says:

    Hi Eileen
    Sorry. I should have cited you since we exchanged so many comments on the clue! I knew the dance – but we differed on the parsing of the clue. I’m still not wholly convinced about it, but you are of course generally right, and to set the record straight, ‘instructive’ above refers at least as much to what I learned from your input as to what my own web searches at the time revealed.

    ps. Where has Myrvin gone?

  18. tupu says:

    Hi Duncan

    I agree and you are right to specify German. In the case of another European language, Finnish, ‘ei’ is pronounced more or less like ‘ay’ in ‘hay’, and ‘ie’ is pronounced as in ‘Siena’.

  19. Kathryn's Dad says:

    I don’t want to get us all discombobulated about homophones again, but Duncan’s surely right – LIEDER and LEADER are pronounced the same, innit? Was there some previous discussion of this, NeilW?

  20. NeilW says:

    K’s Dad – you’re quite right… I searched the site history and can’t find anything so I must have dreamt it! I, personally, have no issue with the pronunciation and that is why my false memory is so strong!

  21. Kathryn's Dad says:

    Thanks, Neil. Just wanted to avoid another 2,000 word discussion about homophones. False memory? It’s my proper memory I’m most worried about at the minute …

  22. Stella Heath says:

    Hi tupu and Eileen,

    I did remember the strathspey discussion once I’d come up with the anagram – I thought it would end in ‘step’, too – but my memory as far as specific puzzles/blogs are concerned is a lot more shady than yours, and I wouldn’t know where to start to look it up :)

    Regarding Lieder, which in German is spelt with a capital, the main confusion is for those of us who have studied the language, and therefore know that there are two possible spellings and pronunciations with radically different meanings: ‘Leid’ means pity or hurt; ‘es tut mir Leid’ is an expression of regret.

  23. otter says:

    …let’s Strathspey again, like we did last summer…

  24. Frank says:

    Is everyone else too caught up with singing and dancing to notice that Manehi has mis-spelled “Twelfth”?

  25. Bryan says:


    Please see 16 above where duncandisorderly brought this to Manehi’s attention @ 12.14 pm.

    I guess that Manehi has been so shocked by the revelations about Senorita Miro that he’s become rather duncandisorderly himself.

  26. Eileen says:

    Hi Stella

    If ever you do want to look anything up, all you have to do is go to the ‘Site search’ box under the calendar at the right of this page and type in the word you’re looking for. [It only applies to setters and answers.]

    Typing in STRATHSPEY this morning got me nowhere and then I remembered that the solution had actually been SPEY – and there it was. As tupu had already remembered that it was an Araucaria puzzle, it was easy to find.

    I was thrilled to bits when someone directed me to this facility – and, if I can do it, anybody can!

  27. Stella Heath says:

    Thanks, Eileen, I’ll know next time :)

  28. Sil van den Hoek says:

    When I printed off the pdf this morning [yes, for us that is still the most satisfying way to solve a crossword – better even than the Real Paper Tree version which has a smaller font], I caught a glimpse of the first clue (9ac) and I saw the answer rightaway.
    A typical Orlando clue – appropriate surface, although, they didn’t have record companies in the days of the “Unfinished”.

    I didn’t get the impression from the previous posts that this was a puzzle that set our souls on fire, but Orlando’s style was omnipresent, we thought.

    Indeed, the triple use of ’11’ was rather nice, especially in the magnificent 16ac – probably our Clue of the Day.
    However, 25ac (ALL AT ONCE) was a strong contender as well – what a beautiful surface!

    I don’t understand all that fuss about LIEDER.
    In Germany it is pronounced exactly like the English pronounce ‘leader’ (so, with a long ‘ie’ cq ‘ea’ – which is crucial). And the thing about ‘two spellings’ I don’t get at all, ‘Leid’ is completely different from ‘Lied’ – ‘ei’ and ‘ie’ have nothing to do with each other [but then I come from a country where double-vowels are a common thing – anyone out there to pronounce (Dirk) Kuijt the right way? :)].

    7d’s FRINGE was quickly found, but we were convinced that there had to be a Fringe Festival in Surrey, too – only to find out, thanks to manehi (and thanks to you anyway), that it was about musicals.
    [which btw, I don’t like at all – but let’s nót start a discussion on that]

    So, we liked the ’11’ device, but 14d wasn’t that good, was it?
    Just like the cheapish DRESS of 24ac.
    And my PinC wasn’t keen on 17d (FLOURISH), because she doesn’t like clues in which words are ‘misleadingly’ capitalised [I tried to convince her many times that’s it is allowed unlike the other way around (words bearing a capital shouldn’t be in lower case), but she keeps on telling me that The Times wouldn’t do that – ah well, that’s life].

    Talking about 17d, usually Orlando is very precise in choosing combinations of proper nouns, so I thought Dusty Miller must be someone in real life.
    I googled, the result being that Dusty Miller is a flower.
    [and an artist, but I’m not going to link you to You Tube again after yesterday’s dances and today’s STRATHSPREY].
    Although initially I found Erasmus Darwin a bit strange [I know (fellow countryman) Erasmus ánd (fellow citizen) Darwin], but indeed Erasmus Darwin wás someone: Darwin’s grandad.

    And now I come to the sensitive point: we couldn’t complete this crossword ….
    ‘Cyclone had’ had to be transformed into a stone.
    Nobody complained about it so far, so CHALCEDONY must be pretty well-known, I guess.
    Not for us, though.
    We had CHAL_E_O_Y with C,D,N left.
    Any mathematician can tell you that there are 6 choices (=3!) to fill the gaps. And I must say, that most of them were equally likely (when you hadn’t heard of it). So, I think this wasn’t what we call a “gettable solution”.

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, enjoyable crossword – should have been on a Tuesday when there is something like a weekday scale.

    Thanks, manehi and Orlando.

  29. Davy says:

    Thanks manehi,

    I didn’t find this as easy as some people but got there in the end. NeilW says it was more of a Monday puzzle but quite often I don’t finish Rufus due to his clueing style. There is so little to go on especially with double definitions where it’s all down to thinking of a particular word.

    Was today’s that easy though ?. Are chalcedony and chevrotain so obvious ?. Could someone say that they got the anagrams without using the internet for help ?. Both words are unlikely sequences of letters and I don’t think they are guessable unless you happen to know the words. Also, HINDEMITH and JOAN MIRO are unknown to me but no doubt they are eminently guessable. I found HINDEMITH in a list of composers and saw that it fitted the clue.

    I did enjoy today’s offering though and thought that ALL AT ONCE was brilliant plus VENTNOR was pretty good.
    Thanks Orlando.

  30. Gerry says:

    I almost didn’t finish because of 5d, but ground it out.

    No-one has mentioned, re 6d, that ‘Jo’ is a character in Louisa May Alcott’s ‘Little Women’.

  31. tupu says:

    Hi Sil

    I hope I am not missing more subtle points you are making in what follows. If so, I apologise.

    I’m not sure what you did not like in 14d. I imagine you know it refers to the first reserve in a cricket team who only plays if one of the other eleven drops out.

    Re Dusty Miller – Dusty is a common nickname for men with the surname Miller – the reference being to the fact that a miller makes flour and gets covered with it and as such dusty. So ‘flourish’ might also mean floury or associated with flour. A more complicated case of such customary nicknames comes with Spud Murphy. Murphy is an Irish name and is associated through that with potatoes. Spud (another word for potato) is then used as common nickname for people with Murphy as their surname.

    Best wishes, Tupu

    Re lieder, NeilW mentioned a problem but then withdrew his point in a later comment. You are right – no fuss warranted and all straightforward.

  32. Sil van den Hoek says:

    Well, tupu (or Tupu), why I didn’t like 14d?
    I find it not cryptic enough.
    [I do understand the context – not just cricket, I guess]

    Dusty Miller, though, is unfamiliar to me as a combination.
    [and my PinC couldn’t enlighten me either]
    I think, though, you won’t blame me for that.
    [and everybody else knows?]
    Given this information, the clue might now be even worse (to me).
    Because if Dusty Miller is a well-known character, obviously connected with ‘flour’ [of course, we did see the link], then 17d is just a simple dd.
    However, if Dusty Miller were something/someone else, it would be a much better clue [in a similar way as yesterday’s ‘Murphy’s Law’] – if you see what I mean.

  33. stiofain says:

    Windy Miller is a more common nickname I think. I didnt like this xword much.

  34. Carrots says:

    A pleasant enough diversion, but I wonder about “FIRST” :there are more precise words for “at the outset” and more appropriate definitions for “FIRST”. “FROTHY” seemed to me a tad nearer the definition than “FLOATY” especially having seen copious amounts of foam used on Independence Day Parades in the USA. Last carp: I wouldn`t have said Henry Moore`s bronzes were in any way “small works of art”…on the contrary!! Some good clues though. As for Lieder/Leader, let`s call the whole thing off.

  35. Ell says:

    Carrots #34

    In 23ac the definition is “works of art”; the “small” gives you the “s” following “BR-ONZE”

  36. tupu says:

    Hi Sil
    Thanks and sorry – I wasnn’t sure where the problem lay for you.
    I like 14d more than you do. It is nicely worded cd though, I agree, not hard.

    Re Dusty Miller. There is no single well known character – it is simply a widespread nickname. I could have mentioned Nobby Clark as another, more obscure, example. Also I think the clue is more than a simple dd. The word flourish (as an adjective re flour) does not really exist – the normal word is floury – so there is a playful pun. And the pun itself only works in writing because of the shift of pronunciation. But each to his own gout as the drunkard said.

    Incidentally, I have only realised when checking parts of this that flour and flower are originally the same word.

  37. tupu says:

    Sil ps

    I don’t know where the idea of blame comes in.

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