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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,149 (Sat 23 Oct)/Biggles – Jerk of fate</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Dynamic</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127547</link>
		<dc:creator>Dynamic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks to Shed also for your valued comment, and your cluewriting in this memorable crossword. The willingness of esteemed setters to read our comments and reply makes the whole experience so much more rewarding. Once my PinC told me of the non-PC phrase, which wasn&#039;t in my vocabulary, I thought 11ac was a particularly good clue, especially in that its surface reading acknowledges the solution&#039;s undertones while providing the cryptic wordplay to lead to it.

To Sil@49, I&#039;ve also found a lot of interest when you&#039;ve recounted your solving experiences and enjoyment in various comments over the last few months. Where they differ from my own it&#039;s particularly interesting to me, especially as someone interested in the process from both sides - solver and setter, as one immersed in British culture and vernacular or otherwise. Hope nobody else minded my &#039;lecture&#039; on a few revelations that everybody&#039;s comments, brave guesses and official answers had given me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to Shed also for your valued comment, and your cluewriting in this memorable crossword. The willingness of esteemed setters to read our comments and reply makes the whole experience so much more rewarding. Once my PinC told me of the non-PC phrase, which wasn&#8217;t in my vocabulary, I thought 11ac was a particularly good clue, especially in that its surface reading acknowledges the solution&#8217;s undertones while providing the cryptic wordplay to lead to it.</p>
<p>To Sil@49, I&#8217;ve also found a lot of interest when you&#8217;ve recounted your solving experiences and enjoyment in various comments over the last few months. Where they differ from my own it&#8217;s particularly interesting to me, especially as someone interested in the process from both sides &#8211; solver and setter, as one immersed in British culture and vernacular or otherwise. Hope nobody else minded my &#8216;lecture&#8217; on a few revelations that everybody&#8217;s comments, brave guesses and official answers had given me.</p>
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		<title>By: Shed</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127542</link>
		<dc:creator>Shed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, it&#039;s gratifying to see we&#039;ve kept the blogging classes occupied for over a week. If it&#039;s any consolation, when the proof finally turned up, none of us could remember who had written which clues or how the nina worked, though with a bit of help from jetdoc we got there in the end. Credit to Enigmatist for having produced the grid: the rest of us just wrote our appointed clues.

Having been outed as the author of 11ac, I personally think it&#039;s OK to use &#039;to&#039; as a &#039;plus&#039; sign in an anagram (add this set of letters &#039;to&#039; this set of letters and mix them all up). But I was half-expecting to be accused of racism for this one, so I can take redundant prepositions on the chin.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s gratifying to see we&#8217;ve kept the blogging classes occupied for over a week. If it&#8217;s any consolation, when the proof finally turned up, none of us could remember who had written which clues or how the nina worked, though with a bit of help from jetdoc we got there in the end. Credit to Enigmatist for having produced the grid: the rest of us just wrote our appointed clues.</p>
<p>Having been outed as the author of 11ac, I personally think it&#8217;s OK to use &#8216;to&#8217; as a &#8216;plus&#8217; sign in an anagram (add this set of letters &#8216;to&#8217; this set of letters and mix them all up). But I was half-expecting to be accused of racism for this one, so I can take redundant prepositions on the chin.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127524</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 22:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dynamic, I only want to say that I am very impressed by your &#039;lecture&#039;. 
No not cynical, I really am. 
You hit many nails on their heads - very enjoyable to read!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dynamic, I only want to say that I am very impressed by your &#8216;lecture&#8217;.<br />
No not cynical, I really am.<br />
You hit many nails on their heads &#8211; very enjoyable to read!</p>
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		<title>By: Dynamic</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127386</link>
		<dc:creator>Dynamic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 01:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This was a fascinating and challenging crossword with some vocabulary unknown to me that my PinC (for me, that&#039;s &quot;Partner in Crosswords&quot; - I can&#039;t speak for Sil) enlightened me about, and I missed the nina.

Many thanks to all commenters, especially those with inside knowledge to elaborate on it - much appreciated, Mr &amp; Mrs H.

In the way that a setter might often start with theme words or favourite clues from their clue-bank to begin filling the grid (e.g. see Anax&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://bigdave44.com/2009/10/12/actually-setting/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Actually Setting - The Anatomy of a Crossword&lt;/a&gt; for an example or his &lt;a href=&quot;http://bigdave44.com/crosswords/from-the-top/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;From The Top - the full story of setting a cryptic&lt;/a&gt;), I&#039;d expect that when you&#039;re aiming for a perimeter nina, after choosing a grid with an unchecked perimeter you&#039;d put the nina in first then try to find words that fit and give interesting clueing options without causing bottlenecks or restricting the choice of checking solutions too much. Obviously there are other considerations at times, such as with Araucaria&#039;s alphabetical jigsaw crossword in about September with RIGHT and BOTTOM on the two sides that don&#039;t include the starting letters.

I think variation in boundary conditions or methods of seeding the grid can add interest to the challenge of setting and sustain interesting variations for solvers too.

Personally, I find ninas enjoyable from time to time, but also appreciate simple great clueing, interesting themes and mini themes and use of cross-references, as I also appreciate four-headed hybrid setters! So I&#039;d say to all setters, keep up the variation and enjoy it and I&#039;m sure we solvers will too far more often than not.

It&#039;s also fascinating to see that it&#039;s not always that obvious even to seasoned solvers what looks like a &quot;typical John Halpern&quot; clue as opposed to a &quot;typical John Henderson&quot; clue. Clearly the constraints of the word in question and its wordplay possibilities ensure that the lines are blurred, and possibly it&#039;s the grid fill as much as the clue construction that makes their characteristic styles shine through in single-setter crosswords.

When a particular setter isn&#039;t setting all the solutions in the grid, they&#039;re not able to put in words that they&#039;d personally have chosen, for example to suit John Halpern&#039;s cheeky/risqué predelictions or to deliberately mislead or subvert (e.g. notice the trend for Henry = H and subvert it using Thiery Henry by using Thievery as a solution, or to set a grid filled with every kind of &#039;flower&#039; clue you can think of, or a grid where each across clue ends as the next one starts, or every solution contains a double-letter, all of which I&#039;ve seen recently, and all of which have caused enjoyment and admiration.

I&#039;d also suggest that the target publication&#039;s setting rules and target difficulty will have an influence on clue style. For example, Ray T setting Telegraph Toughies as Beam (which he&#039;s done twice) differs to a degree from his regular, but anonymous, Daily Telegraph cryptics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a fascinating and challenging crossword with some vocabulary unknown to me that my PinC (for me, that&#8217;s &#8220;Partner in Crosswords&#8221; &#8211; I can&#8217;t speak for Sil) enlightened me about, and I missed the nina.</p>
<p>Many thanks to all commenters, especially those with inside knowledge to elaborate on it &#8211; much appreciated, Mr &amp; Mrs H.</p>
<p>In the way that a setter might often start with theme words or favourite clues from their clue-bank to begin filling the grid (e.g. see Anax&#8217;s <a href="http://bigdave44.com/2009/10/12/actually-setting/" rel="nofollow">Actually Setting &#8211; The Anatomy of a Crossword</a> for an example or his <a href="http://bigdave44.com/crosswords/from-the-top/" rel="nofollow">From The Top &#8211; the full story of setting a cryptic</a>), I&#8217;d expect that when you&#8217;re aiming for a perimeter nina, after choosing a grid with an unchecked perimeter you&#8217;d put the nina in first then try to find words that fit and give interesting clueing options without causing bottlenecks or restricting the choice of checking solutions too much. Obviously there are other considerations at times, such as with Araucaria&#8217;s alphabetical jigsaw crossword in about September with RIGHT and BOTTOM on the two sides that don&#8217;t include the starting letters.</p>
<p>I think variation in boundary conditions or methods of seeding the grid can add interest to the challenge of setting and sustain interesting variations for solvers too.</p>
<p>Personally, I find ninas enjoyable from time to time, but also appreciate simple great clueing, interesting themes and mini themes and use of cross-references, as I also appreciate four-headed hybrid setters! So I&#8217;d say to all setters, keep up the variation and enjoy it and I&#8217;m sure we solvers will too far more often than not.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also fascinating to see that it&#8217;s not always that obvious even to seasoned solvers what looks like a &#8220;typical John Halpern&#8221; clue as opposed to a &#8220;typical John Henderson&#8221; clue. Clearly the constraints of the word in question and its wordplay possibilities ensure that the lines are blurred, and possibly it&#8217;s the grid fill as much as the clue construction that makes their characteristic styles shine through in single-setter crosswords.</p>
<p>When a particular setter isn&#8217;t setting all the solutions in the grid, they&#8217;re not able to put in words that they&#8217;d personally have chosen, for example to suit John Halpern&#8217;s cheeky/risqué predelictions or to deliberately mislead or subvert (e.g. notice the trend for Henry = H and subvert it using Thiery Henry by using Thievery as a solution, or to set a grid filled with every kind of &#8216;flower&#8217; clue you can think of, or a grid where each across clue ends as the next one starts, or every solution contains a double-letter, all of which I&#8217;ve seen recently, and all of which have caused enjoyment and admiration.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also suggest that the target publication&#8217;s setting rules and target difficulty will have an influence on clue style. For example, Ray T setting Telegraph Toughies as Beam (which he&#8217;s done twice) differs to a degree from his regular, but anonymous, Daily Telegraph cryptics.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127315</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One mistake: you haven&#039;t finished it yet, so the clock&#039;s still running.  

Also the music of the day is obviously Buffalo Tom&#039;s Soda Jerk,
but obviously this is news to you.
Good puzzle this one, though even for those of us who admit the time taked to slog it out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One mistake: you haven&#8217;t finished it yet, so the clock&#8217;s still running.  </p>
<p>Also the music of the day is obviously Buffalo Tom&#8217;s Soda Jerk,<br />
but obviously this is news to you.<br />
Good puzzle this one, though even for those of us who admit the time taked to slog it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Carrots</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127311</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrots</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK Sil....I`ll rise to the bait. What, exactly is a &quot;PinC&quot;? The only thing I can think of is &quot;Partner-in-Crime&quot;, but somehow I can`t imagine you as an Al Capone figure. (As Machine-Gun-Kelly maybe, especially when winding tupu up with scatter-shot!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK Sil&#8230;.I`ll rise to the bait. What, exactly is a &#8220;PinC&#8221;? The only thing I can think of is &#8220;Partner-in-Crime&#8221;, but somehow I can`t imagine you as an Al Capone figure. (As Machine-Gun-Kelly maybe, especially when winding tupu up with scatter-shot!)</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127273</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And there&#039;s one more thing.
I was just talking to my PinC when I asked myself who&#039;s done the grid (including the words). For example, I can imagine that someone like the editor was responsible for that, giving each of the Johns their share (in which case we eg should unlink Paul and a word like Vindaloo).
I&#039;m sure our Gang of Four would have a good time together, but designing a grid together is a bit dullish, isn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And there&#8217;s one more thing.<br />
I was just talking to my PinC when I asked myself who&#8217;s done the grid (including the words). For example, I can imagine that someone like the editor was responsible for that, giving each of the Johns their share (in which case we eg should unlink Paul and a word like Vindaloo).<br />
I&#8217;m sure our Gang of Four would have a good time together, but designing a grid together is a bit dullish, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127272</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, Enigmatist (or dare I say John), then I had at least the Across ones right (and so my Dream World collapsed :)).
But I swapped Paul and you [I still feel that the last bunch of seven is more John the Other H. (not just because of Vindaloo)]. 
Funny, isn&#039;t it?
 
Looking back at my first post (#12) I did 9 predictions: only 3 of them were right ... !! 
[but poor Bryan (#6), he was completely wrong]
And, although I hardly had any criticism: 2 out of 3 times Paul was the victim.

I think, the result makes very clear that some styles and certainly those of you, more or less Libertarian topsetters, are very close or at least show an overlap.

I will not express my feelings about who or what I liked most.
It was a giant team effort, and so it shall be remembered.
And I/we enjoyed it immensely - and look at that number of posts for a Saturday puzzle!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Enigmatist (or dare I say John), then I had at least the Across ones right (and so my Dream World collapsed <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).<br />
But I swapped Paul and you [I still feel that the last bunch of seven is more John the Other H. (not just because of Vindaloo)].<br />
Funny, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>Looking back at my first post (#12) I did 9 predictions: only 3 of them were right &#8230; !!<br />
[but poor Bryan (#6), he was completely wrong]<br />
And, although I hardly had any criticism: 2 out of 3 times Paul was the victim.</p>
<p>I think, the result makes very clear that some styles and certainly those of you, more or less Libertarian topsetters, are very close or at least show an overlap.</p>
<p>I will not express my feelings about who or what I liked most.<br />
It was a giant team effort, and so it shall be remembered.<br />
And I/we enjoyed it immensely &#8211; and look at that number of posts for a Saturday puzzle!</p>
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		<title>By: Eileen</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127270</link>
		<dc:creator>Eileen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127270</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John H

Very many thanks all round - for your part in a super puzzle and your hint at #33. With that bit of help, I cracked it! [You must have had some fun! :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John H</p>
<p>Very many thanks all round &#8211; for your part in a super puzzle and your hint at #33. With that bit of help, I cracked it! [You must have had some fun! <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2010/10/30/guardian-25149-sat-23-octbiggles-jerk-of-fate/#comment-127268</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=22309#comment-127268</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many thanks John H @ 41

It was amazing how all of you managed to fit everything together and also to include the Nina.

Well done!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many thanks John H @ 41</p>
<p>It was amazing how all of you managed to fit everything together and also to include the Nina.</p>
<p>Well done!</p>
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