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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,227 / Orlando</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: John McDonald</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-148032</link>
		<dc:creator>John McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jan 2011 03:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-148032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re. 22D -- Eerie is E (European) followed by Eire reversed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. 22D &#8212; Eerie is E (European) followed by Eire reversed.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-148013</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 22:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-148013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In addition to my post @30, I want to emphasise that some of the last lines are not meant to be read as cynical or so.
The smiley after the remark that some people might still be staring at a half-full grid, is possibly misplaced (and true, at the same time).

I really think that a lot of Guardian readers weren&#039;t very pleased today. 
With the posts @29 and 31 as a result.
When I say that we thought the editor&#039;s choice was a good thing, I meant that we (my PinC and I) liked it for a change.

Most of the above posts appreciated the crossword, but Fifteensquared regulars are not the average solvers.

I hope that the editor gives Rufus the Tuesday spot tomorrow.
Which would be surprise #2 this week.

mark @31:
When EERIE (22d) is indeed a mistake, then that&#039;s very annoying - I agree.
But normally Orlando is such a precise setter that I find it hard to nail him to the wall for just one misgiving (which could have any reason - who knows).
I do agree with you about the order of things in BENGALI (5d). The problem, however, is that this is Crosswordland. The clue cán be read as &quot;a tongue which when twisted gives us Belgian&quot;. I know it&#039;s not the obvious way of looking at the clue, but, you see, there&#039;s a question mark at the end too.
But I definitely see your point.

This wasn&#039;t a puzzle for Monday Solvers.
We did like the cleverness of many clues.
We do understand the imperfection of some other clues.
But there was a lot that&#039;s priceless.
But again, for us, that is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to my post @30, I want to emphasise that some of the last lines are not meant to be read as cynical or so.<br />
The smiley after the remark that some people might still be staring at a half-full grid, is possibly misplaced (and true, at the same time).</p>
<p>I really think that a lot of Guardian readers weren&#8217;t very pleased today.<br />
With the posts @29 and 31 as a result.<br />
When I say that we thought the editor&#8217;s choice was a good thing, I meant that we (my PinC and I) liked it for a change.</p>
<p>Most of the above posts appreciated the crossword, but Fifteensquared regulars are not the average solvers.</p>
<p>I hope that the editor gives Rufus the Tuesday spot tomorrow.<br />
Which would be surprise #2 this week.</p>
<p>mark @31:<br />
When EERIE (22d) is indeed a mistake, then that&#8217;s very annoying &#8211; I agree.<br />
But normally Orlando is such a precise setter that I find it hard to nail him to the wall for just one misgiving (which could have any reason &#8211; who knows).<br />
I do agree with you about the order of things in BENGALI (5d). The problem, however, is that this is Crosswordland. The clue cán be read as &#8220;a tongue which when twisted gives us Belgian&#8221;. I know it&#8217;s not the obvious way of looking at the clue, but, you see, there&#8217;s a question mark at the end too.<br />
But I definitely see your point.</p>
<p>This wasn&#8217;t a puzzle for Monday Solvers.<br />
We did like the cleverness of many clues.<br />
We do understand the imperfection of some other clues.<br />
But there was a lot that&#8217;s priceless.<br />
But again, for us, that is.</p>
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		<title>By: Carrots</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-148008</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrots</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 22:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-148008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow! Wotta Monday! This was seriously brain-mashing stuff from Orlando...and I look forward to complimenting him about it on Saturday. He beat me with LEBANON, NINON &amp; LABIATE. As I don`t use life support systems (like Chambers &amp; Google etc.) I can forgive myself the latter two, but not the former.

K`s D &quot;do&quot; seems to be shaping up really well: I can see the headlines now in the Derbyshire Evening Telegraph: &quot;FIGHTING DRUNK CRUCIVERBALISTS CLASH OVER THE SPLIT INFINITIVE!&quot;

God Speed to you all who attend.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! Wotta Monday! This was seriously brain-mashing stuff from Orlando&#8230;and I look forward to complimenting him about it on Saturday. He beat me with LEBANON, NINON &amp; LABIATE. As I don`t use life support systems (like Chambers &amp; Google etc.) I can forgive myself the latter two, but not the former.</p>
<p>K`s D &#8220;do&#8221; seems to be shaping up really well: I can see the headlines now in the Derbyshire Evening Telegraph: &#8220;FIGHTING DRUNK CRUCIVERBALISTS CLASH OVER THE SPLIT INFINITIVE!&#8221;</p>
<p>God Speed to you all who attend.</p>
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		<title>By: mark</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-148007</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 21:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-148007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes I was staring at a two-thirds full only grid and don&#039;t like some of the answers now I&#039;ve seen them.
How does a setter make the mistake that is 22D - that&#039;s so annoying and I lose faith then.
17A seemed cumbersome and I couldn&#039;t believe I&#039;d got it right.
Didn&#039;t know W was short for WITH.
And 5D - it doesn&#039;t work! Belgian is twisted not Tongue on the surface. That&#039;s more than misdirection it&#039;s lazy or clumsy.
Yuck.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes I was staring at a two-thirds full only grid and don&#8217;t like some of the answers now I&#8217;ve seen them.<br />
How does a setter make the mistake that is 22D &#8211; that&#8217;s so annoying and I lose faith then.<br />
17A seemed cumbersome and I couldn&#8217;t believe I&#8217;d got it right.<br />
Didn&#8217;t know W was short for WITH.<br />
And 5D &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t work! Belgian is twisted not Tongue on the surface. That&#8217;s more than misdirection it&#8217;s lazy or clumsy.<br />
Yuck.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-148006</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 20:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-148006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well well, it was certainly different today.
Not just more challenging than on a normal Monday [which probably will not be appreciated by the average Guardian reader], but also on top of that - in our opinion - one of the toughest Orlandos we&#039;ve seen so far.
In fact, it took us almost 90 minutes to complete, which was the same time we spent on last Saturday&#039;s Enigmatist. During the first quarter of it, we hardly put anything to paper.

Nice puzzle, full of Orlando&#039;s trademark misdirections.
A quasi-simple clue like 12ac (NIAGARA) could take you anywhere - I mean &quot;Russia&#039;s borders&quot; were clear, but it could have been just as easily a &quot;river&quot; (flowing backwards) with RA inside, giving &quot;Border&quot;. 
One or two unusual things like, for example, LONDRES.

We forgive Orlando 2x &quot;fish&quot; in 1ac [yes, Dave @10], with its well-hidden anagrind, and perhaps the EERIE clue too [although, when John Doe is right @28, there is nothing tó forgive].
While others weren&#039;t completely happy with &quot;observing&quot; in 3d, we weren&#039;t convinced of the necessity of &quot;needed&quot; (16ac PORTRAYAL), other than for the (splendid) surface.

Good, but tough puzzle.
Generally very well-written, as we&#039;ve come to expect from Orlando.

But we suspect that there will be some Guardian readers out there, still staring at an half-full grid. :)
[Wonder what the policy behind today&#039;s choice was, but we thought it was a good one]

And of course, mhl, thanks for the blog.
Hope to meet you and others this Saturday!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well well, it was certainly different today.<br />
Not just more challenging than on a normal Monday [which probably will not be appreciated by the average Guardian reader], but also on top of that &#8211; in our opinion &#8211; one of the toughest Orlandos we&#8217;ve seen so far.<br />
In fact, it took us almost 90 minutes to complete, which was the same time we spent on last Saturday&#8217;s Enigmatist. During the first quarter of it, we hardly put anything to paper.</p>
<p>Nice puzzle, full of Orlando&#8217;s trademark misdirections.<br />
A quasi-simple clue like 12ac (NIAGARA) could take you anywhere &#8211; I mean &#8220;Russia&#8217;s borders&#8221; were clear, but it could have been just as easily a &#8220;river&#8221; (flowing backwards) with RA inside, giving &#8220;Border&#8221;.<br />
One or two unusual things like, for example, LONDRES.</p>
<p>We forgive Orlando 2x &#8220;fish&#8221; in 1ac [yes, Dave @10], with its well-hidden anagrind, and perhaps the EERIE clue too [although, when John Doe is right @28, there is nothing tó forgive].<br />
While others weren&#8217;t completely happy with &#8220;observing&#8221; in 3d, we weren&#8217;t convinced of the necessity of &#8220;needed&#8221; (16ac PORTRAYAL), other than for the (splendid) surface.</p>
<p>Good, but tough puzzle.<br />
Generally very well-written, as we&#8217;ve come to expect from Orlando.</p>
<p>But we suspect that there will be some Guardian readers out there, still staring at an half-full grid. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
[Wonder what the policy behind today's choice was, but we thought it was a good one]</p>
<p>And of course, mhl, thanks for the blog.<br />
Hope to meet you and others this Saturday!</p>
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		<title>By: Rosmarinus</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-148005</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosmarinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 20:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-148005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Being new to cryptics I found this one hard and had to make fair use of my check button. I can usually finish Rufus now and look forward to him on a Monday. I also dismissed 1ac to begin with as I believed the answer to an anagram should not be in the clue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being new to cryptics I found this one hard and had to make fair use of my check button. I can usually finish Rufus now and look forward to him on a Monday. I also dismissed 1ac to begin with as I believed the answer to an anagram should not be in the clue.</p>
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		<title>By: John Doe</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-147993</link>
		<dc:creator>John Doe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 17:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-147993</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re 22d: set-up of European republic gives ERIE E, as has been pointed out

*Disturbing* does double duty as the definition and a further instruction, so 

disturbing (instruction) ERIE E gives E ERIE, anyway you like it, anagram or swap]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re 22d: set-up of European republic gives ERIE E, as has been pointed out</p>
<p>*Disturbing* does double duty as the definition and a further instruction, so </p>
<p>disturbing (instruction) ERIE E gives E ERIE, anyway you like it, anagram or swap</p>
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		<title>By: Dynamic</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-147988</link>
		<dc:creator>Dynamic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-147988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@muz - a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_bar&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nail bar&lt;/a&gt; is also known as a nail salon, where mostly ladies go to have their quicks treated and their nail polish or false nails applied by a beautician or manicurist. I think somebody set one up with that title in Albert Square (Eastenders) in the last few years as they started popping up in many towns around the country, so I&#039;d imagine it&#039;s a fairly well-known phrase in the UK.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@muz &#8211; a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_bar" rel="nofollow">nail bar</a> is also known as a nail salon, where mostly ladies go to have their quicks treated and their nail polish or false nails applied by a beautician or manicurist. I think somebody set one up with that title in Albert Square (Eastenders) in the last few years as they started popping up in many towns around the country, so I&#8217;d imagine it&#8217;s a fairly well-known phrase in the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: Dynamic</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-147986</link>
		<dc:creator>Dynamic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-147986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;22&lt;/b&gt; Disturbing set-up of European republic? (5)

I too was puzzled by 22d which really looks like ERIEE from the wordplay. I guess we could all be missing something, like I did for quite a while with 26a.

Unlike mathematics, there&#039;s no precise order to things and no brackets to change that order or lump words together to undergo the same process, so there&#039;s some flexibility, but I really couldn&#039;t make it become EERIE.

Discussing it with my PinC, the best justification I could come up with was the rather unsatisfying, but technically accurate:

Take the abbreviation for European (&lt;b&gt;E&lt;/b&gt;) and reverse that (still &lt;b&gt;E&lt;/b&gt;!)
then take the name of a republic (&lt;b&gt;EIRE&lt;/b&gt;) and reverse that too (&lt;b&gt;ERIE&lt;/b&gt;) and append it:
&lt;E&lt; + &lt;EIRE&lt; = E + ERIE = EERIE

Not very satisfying to reverse a single letter and then carry over the same reversicator to act on the next word, which is placed after the first reversed letter.

Likewise it&#039;s not satisfying to say that a reversal can use an anagram indicator because reversal is technically a special case of an anagram, or that a double reversal (for surface reading&#039;s sake, I guess) would count as the same word forward, acting either as part of a charade or a double-definition. These things are frowned upon unless there&#039;s an unusual special reason (maybe a theme of double-negatives).

However, I thought this was a marvellous crossword, with some lovely misdirection, plenty of well disguised &#039;lift and separate&#039; moments such as &quot;French capital&quot; and &quot;South American city&quot;. This is rather unusually challenging for a Monday Guardian, but I&#039;d enjoy this any day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>22</b> Disturbing set-up of European republic? (5)</p>
<p>I too was puzzled by 22d which really looks like ERIEE from the wordplay. I guess we could all be missing something, like I did for quite a while with 26a.</p>
<p>Unlike mathematics, there&#8217;s no precise order to things and no brackets to change that order or lump words together to undergo the same process, so there&#8217;s some flexibility, but I really couldn&#8217;t make it become EERIE.</p>
<p>Discussing it with my PinC, the best justification I could come up with was the rather unsatisfying, but technically accurate:</p>
<p>Take the abbreviation for European (<b>E</b>) and reverse that (still <b>E</b>!)<br />
then take the name of a republic (<b>EIRE</b>) and reverse that too (<b>ERIE</b>) and append it:<br />
&lt;E&lt; + &lt;EIRE&lt; = E + ERIE = EERIE</p>
<p>Not very satisfying to reverse a single letter and then carry over the same reversicator to act on the next word, which is placed after the first reversed letter.</p>
<p>Likewise it&#039;s not satisfying to say that a reversal can use an anagram indicator because reversal is technically a special case of an anagram, or that a double reversal (for surface reading&#039;s sake, I guess) would count as the same word forward, acting either as part of a charade or a double-definition. These things are frowned upon unless there&#039;s an unusual special reason (maybe a theme of double-negatives).</p>
<p>However, I thought this was a marvellous crossword, with some lovely misdirection, plenty of well disguised &#039;lift and separate&#039; moments such as &quot;French capital&quot; and &quot;South American city&quot;. This is rather unusually challenging for a Monday Guardian, but I&#039;d enjoy this any day.</p>
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		<title>By: muz</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/01/24/guardian-25227-orlando/#comment-147984</link>
		<dc:creator>muz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=25568#comment-147984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks mhl for blogging under difficult circumstances.

A nice puzzle today, really.

Can anybody explain what a NAIL BAR is? I had NAIL BED; if you can be treated in a burns ward, maybe you can be treated in nail bed?? This slowed me down some, but 3d is precisely enough clued to reveal my mistake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks mhl for blogging under difficult circumstances.</p>
<p>A nice puzzle today, really.</p>
<p>Can anybody explain what a NAIL BAR is? I had NAIL BED; if you can be treated in a burns ward, maybe you can be treated in nail bed?? This slowed me down some, but 3d is precisely enough clued to reveal my mistake.</p>
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