Thanks for that. Sorry re inscrutability – its a good job I don’t set! Cheers.

Your typically thorough general approach does reveal some interesting avenues to explore, like your example B. I’m not sure if slang terms are essentially different from any other sort of language as far as their use in punning goes. The interesting thing, I think, is that most slang terms have their origin in some sort of perceived resemblance between two things. So ‘bean’ for head is itself a sort of visual pun in the first place. The urge to make, or recognise, these and more complex sorts of playful connections surely explains, at least in part, the fascination of crosswords. As with the language in 12a, ‘bean’ and ‘lid’ lead us idiomatically to the type who would wear a topi, so I call 11ac a genuine clue in the sense I outlined in 55 above.

As you say, “Overall, it may be that function is the key. A cd is designed to define in a cryptic way. A pun is a kind of joke”. So there’s the difference? Even if Samuel Beckett’s “In the beginning was the pun”, is true, I think we still need something more elaborate than just the joke to make a good clue.

So I certainly don’t feel you’ve wasted my time. Thanks for your replies.

m

Thanks. My comment to Carrots arose out of Orlando @25-29.
It seems I tried to address your question more generally than you seem to have intended. I suppose my main point is that some cds are puns and others not, and vice versa. I see no great harm in this.

I hate to come here to complain, since I think it is generally bad form, but reflecting Dave @ 12, yes, the odd cryptic def can be a nice bit of spice. But having them all over a puzzle, to me, detracts from what I came for – clue-solving.

Sil & friend, I think part of what this puzzle difficult was my pet peeve – the grid is incredibly isolated. Finishing one quadrant gives one almost nothing to work with elsewhere. It didn’t help that most of the words that connect the quadrants were so-called “cryptic definitions”, by which I mean “unsolvable”.

As far as the big E(X)TERNAL debate, once I saw it, I had no problem with something as trivial as a part of speech.

Yes, I finished this one, amazingly (with lots of research, mind you).

TOPI was part of a clue a few days ago, building TROPICAL or TROPICS or some such. But here it struck me as – I am sorry to have to say this – lazy. Why not come up with a good clue for TAPS or TYPE or TOPS or TAPE or, well, even TOPI?

Thanks or the blog, mhl, and of course, even though I complained a lot, for the puzzle, Rufus.

For 20 down I got the GIS bit but got RAT by thinking of desert rats as a nickname for certain soldiers. Probably not the right way to get at the answer but anyway.. I wasn’t familiar with RAT as a term for a deserter from the army, more as a grass or informer – probably been watching too much Sopranos.

Firstly, I’m not sure if there is ‘a simple pun’. COD gives for pun.
1. humorous use of word to suggest different meanings.

2. humorous use of words with same or similar sounds with different meanings.

3. play on words.

We can probably leave 3 out here. No doubt there may be other glosses elesewhere.

I take a cd to be a definition of something in a surprising (and often but not necessarily humorous) way.

There is clearly overlap between these areas and ‘spokesman’ seems a good example. This seems to involve Pun 2.

A. There are however some puns where no definition is involved. COD gives ‘Gout has taken him in toe’.

Another example might be a mock examination question in ‘media studies’. “Pornography is the spice of life. Disgust”.

B. There are also cds where punning (1) and (slang) metaphor seem hard to separate. 11a might be an example where ‘baked’, ‘beans’ and ‘lid’ are all played with.

C. Then there are cds like 22a where I hesitate to describe the clue as ‘a pun’ but I suppose it might be a combination of weak puns (1). But we get close to saying that any use of different meanings of the same word(s) is a pun e.g. reluctance to give credit in 12a.

Overall, it may be that function is the key. A cd is designed to define in a cryptic way. A pun is a kind of joke. When one combines both functions (as in many crossword clues) there will be overlap.

A collection of rude noises? Punnet?

In the light of 8d, can anyone tell me the difference between a cd and a simple pun?

Because surely there ought to be a difference.