Comments on: Guardian 25,285 / Puck

By: Martin H

Martin H — Sat, 02 Apr 2011 00:21:01 +0000

Hi tupu – I find Eileen’s/Thomas99′s/mhl’s reading coherent, and so I say it’s valid. ’11′s first’ could equally have been S or SWAN, but they weren’t what Puck intended. There are often two or more possible coherent readings of a part of a clue. This one is unusual because the intended reading is conceptually so different from the alternatives, rather like those optical illusions – ie where you see either the old crone or the young girl, but it’s difficult to comprehend the two images at the same time.

By: RCWhiting

RCWhiting — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 20:22:29 +0000

…….like 11′s double first……maybe?

By: taxi phil

taxi phil — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 20:20:20 +0000

Quite simply the most enjoyable puzzle of the year so far. Enigmatist please note !

By: tupu

tupu — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 19:14:39 +0000

Hi Martin
I have felt uneasy about this without any link to the first/last juxtaposition.

Eileen says the clue is VIRTUALLY Swan Hunter’s first, but it is nonetheless not quite that.

Peter seems to me to give the clearest picture of what is going on. The clue seems more like (Swan + Hunter)’s first as he points out. But it can be read as Swan + Hunter + ‘s + first, and one can then rejoin them in crosswordland as Swan + Hunter’s first (just about).

I still don’t feel it is a ‘perfect clue’ however and some other wording with a decent surface would, if possible, have been preferable IMHO.

By: RCWhiting

RCWhiting — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 18:18:53 +0000

BTW
a) I don’t expect you to agree with me !
b) I quite liked the clue but still think it is seriously flawed.

By: RCWhiting

RCWhiting — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 18:15:20 +0000

Sorry Eileen,one last try (?!)
“If the clue had been ‘Swan Hunter’s first, etc…’, which is, virtually, what it is”
But it isn’t. It is 11 and 11′s first is ‘swan’
It is very common when cross referring to a two word solution to refer to the first or second (or last)if only one part is required.
This leaves no ‘first’ to indicate H(unter).

By: Martin H

Martin H — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:47:58 +0000

Thanks Eileen and others – 12a is actually very good. The interesting thing is why some of us found/find it so hard to accept. I suggest it has something to do with the use of the word ‘last’ as well as ‘first’ in the clue; as apparently complementary words – and in the absence of any further material other than the number references – they feel as if they ought to be treated in the same way – standard trap, but this time very effective.

By: Peter

Peter — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:44:40 +0000

Thanks to mhl for the blog, and Puck for an absolute joy of a xword! Quite a few real beauties in it.

Re 11ac: I agree with Eileen (46) and Thomas (43) on their parsing, and that it is a perfect clue. But I think I can also see why RCWhiting is troubled. In the language of algebra, programming, or grammer, there’s a change of bracketing/parsing:

“9’s first” suggests “(Swan Hunter)’s first”, while the cryptic reading groups it as “Swan (Hunter’s first)”.

Compare how in 1d, the surface suggests “What builder gets from (designer glasses)”, but the cryptic reading requires parsing it as “(What builder gets from designer); glasses”. Discarding groupings from the surface reading like this often troubles newcomers, but I think we’d all agree it’s quite kosher.

Doing the same thing to a reference is much less usual, but it seems quite reasonable to me — indeed, quite ingeniously elegant!

By: Eileen

Eileen — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:22:07 +0000

Hi RCWhiting

I really do hesitate to prolong this [I think this is one of those where either you see it or you don't and it's been expressed in practically every way possible by those who do.]

If the clue had been ‘Swan Hunter’s first, etc…’, which is, virtually, what it is, as mhl suggested @30, surely you would have arrived at COBH?

I’m going out now.

By: nmsindy

nmsindy — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:21:29 +0000

An American tourist landing at COBH from a liner once described it as COB H. A phrase that went into the folklore and would be understood and recognized by most people in that area of the country now.