Fifteensquared

Never knowingly undersolved.

Guardian 25,337 / Crucible

Posted by Eileen on June 1st, 2011

Eileen.

I was delighted to see Crucible’s name on this puzzle and I was not disappointed.  His crosswords often have a theme and here we have a nice cheerful one, with no obscurities, I think, apart from one clue which could evince a protest of ‘parochialism’. There are some excellent clues, with characteristic story-telling surfaces and lots to amuse and entertain. Many thanks, Crucible, for a very pleasant start to the day.

[Many of the answers* can be preceded or followed by the word 'Spring', or have some reference to it. I may have missed some!]

Across

5   *SEASON: SEA [main] SON [offspring]; a great clue to start us off and set the scene
6   *SOURCE: anagram of COURSE
9   HUMBLE: double definition: Kate, presenter of the very popular SPRINGWATCH programme which is 8dn with its parts exchanged
10  ASSIGNED: anagram of DIAGNOSES minus O [none] – or ‘none the less’: an excellent clue!
11  *TIDE: reversal of EDIT, which is what sub[editor]s do
12  ARCHIMEDES: anagram of SCREAMED and H[is] I[ntuition]: and we all know that what he screamed was .’Eureka!’ – a hilarious &lit.
13  ASSESSMENTS: ASSETS around [housing] SS [ship] and MEN [crew]
18  UNILATERAL: UNI [college] + ATE [worried] RA [artist] in LL [lecturers]
21  *ROLL: hidden in patROL Leader
22  COQ AU VIN: anagram [cook] of EQUIVOCATING minus anagram [messy] of GITE
23  SPIRAL: anagram of RAILS around P [post]. I’ve only met P as an abbreviation for ‘post’ in P.O, G.P.O. or p.m. but Collins gives it for ‘after’. This is another great &lit.
24  SCENTS: sounds [a bit] like SENSE
25  *BOARDS: double definition

Down

1   *WARBLERS: anagram [unseemly - nice!] of BRAWL + ERS [Queens]
2   BODEGA: odd characters of B. OdDiE + GA[ve] – a favourite crossword word. Bill Oddie also used to present ‘Springwatch’.
3   SOLSTICE: cryptic [?] definition
4   *PRAGUE:  PR [Public Relations - 'publicity'] + AGUE [fever]
5   STUDIO: anagram [broadcast] of OUTSID[e] [cut] – another excellent clue
7   ELEVEN: XI [middle letters of Mexico]
8   *WATCHSPRING: WATCH [guard] + SPRING [jump]; the definition is 23 ['spiral']
14  ESTIVATE: IV [four] in E[ast] STATE [Vermont, say]: the less well known equivalent of ‘hibernate’, which I would spell ‘aestivate’, but this, appropriately, is the usual American spelling.
15  TERTIARY: double definition: ‘rock group’ [!]  belonging to the geological time, system of rocks, or sedimentary deposits of the first period of the Cenozoic Era
16  *ONIONS; cryptic definition: I didn’t know the origin of the phrase ‘to know one’s onions but there are some suggestions here
17  *CLEANS: C[ontact] + A [one] in LENS
19  *LOADED: anagram of EL DORADO minus OR [gold]

20  LESSON: LESS ON

65 Responses to “Guardian 25,337 / Crucible”

  1. Brian H says:

    Theme can be prefixed to 16dn, 17dn and 17dn.
    Never heard of SPRINGWATCH. What is it? Some Brit TV programme?

  2. Brian H says:

    24a is a very bad clue – it sounds nothing like it.

  3. Eileen says:

    Thank you, Brian H. I indicated the theme words with a * and I’ve given the link to the TV programme.

  4. Mystogre says:

    Thank you Eileen and Crucible. A reasonably gentle solve but I initially got stuck in the NW corner as Springwatch has not made it to my part of the world.

    18ac was a problem (thanks for the explanation) and I got it from the UNI and LATERAL from the side bit. And I couldn’t see the TICE bit of 3d although it was the only word that fitted. Shakespeare didn’t seem to make the word mean “career”. I think I agree with your 15d, although I spent a bit of time looking for a rock group that made music instead. Good bit of misleading there.

    I did like 7d though – inventive.

  5. tupu says:

    Many thanks Eileen and Crucible

    An excellent and very helpful blog.

    I missed the theme, I’m afraid. Too much of a rush. I will try to remember for my next encounter with this entertaining setter.

    I also got 11d wrong. I put in ‘dive’ in desperation as my last answer thinking of e.g. a dive in prices. The correct answer (thanks again) is rather good.

    I enjoyed 10a, 12a, 21a, 23a, 3d, 7d, 8d, 15d.

  6. Wanderer says:

    Thanks Eileen and Crucible. I am new enough and inexperienced enough to derive great pleasure from observing the ways in which different setters use themes. While some recent offerings, such as Essex towns or London Underground stations, have shouted “here I am”, this one gently and gradually revealed itself, allowing more and more “aha” moments as it built up. I certainly don’t want to suggest that I enjoy one type of theme more than another, but the variety is great fun!

    A very good week in the Guardian so far, in my book.

  7. Ian says:

    Thanks Eileen for a typically comprehensive summary and also to Crucible for a most enjoyable puzzle.

    Eileen, I couldn’t agree more about the quality of the surfaces.

    Like Mystogre @4 I found myself becalmed but in the NE corner.

    Both 12 and 23 across are undoubtedly terrific crypyic clues of the highest order
    whilst 10 across is as smooth as silk. Beautifully written.

    Re Bodega at 2 down: Although another good clue, I’ve always thought of a bodega as a cave/cellar in somewhere like Jerez where lovers of the sadly unfashionable fortified wines of the regions can taste them at their leisure. I realise that today even a humble liquor store can classify itself as one.

  8. liz says:

    Thanks for a great blog, Eileen. And thanks to Crucible for a very entertaining puzzle.

    I’ve just about managed to remember that Brendan likes themes — must add Crucible to the list. MIssed it today :-( despite the word repeatedly appearing in clues.

    I think you could include (SPRING) SOLSTICE to your list.

    As others have pointed out, some superb surfaces here. I liked 12ac and 23ac in particular. Other gems were 11ac and 22ac.

  9. Eileen says:

    Hi liz

    I did have SOLSTICE on the list – but Gaufrid very swiftly sent me a message to the effect that it’s Summer and Winter solstice and Vernal and Autumnal equinox!

  10. Kathryn's Dad says:

    Many thanks, Eileen. I did enjoy this one, but had four or five solutions where I couldn’t understand the parsing. The theme passed my by, but I was none the worse off for that. Plenty of good clues today: SEASON, COQ AU VIN and SPIRAL were particular favourites.

    Is the fact that by most people’s definition spring ended at midnight last night and the crossword appeared on line at exactly that time serendipity?

    Fine puzzle, thank you to Crucible for it.

  11. Stella Heath says:

    Thanks Eileen. I now know there’s a good reason why I couldn’t understand 9ac, or fully parse 2d. BTW Ian@7, you are right about the origin of “bodega”, although it’s not limited to fortified wines. There are many underground dugouts all around the region where I live, whose Rioja-type produce is rapidly gaining well-earned renown.

    However, it is also the word used for a shop which specialises in alcoholic beverages, the equivalent of an off-licence.

    I totally missed the theme, but was able to complete without aids – although a couple of answers were guesses from the definition, with no idea how they worked. Having read the blog, I now appreciate even more what a great puzzle this was. Thank you Crucible.

  12. tupu says:

    Hi Ian

    Your comment re bodega tempted me to verify my hunch that it is one of a number of related words including boutique (it appears as ‘puoti’ in Finnish). It seems to derive from Greek ‘apotheka’ a place where things are stored i.e. a store!

  13. liz says:

    Hi Eileen

    I stand corrected!

  14. Stella Heath says:

    Hi tupu, we crossed! You might be interested to know there’s another related Spanish word, “botica”, which is a medical store nowadays, and an old word for chemists’ (or do you say ‘pharmacy’ these days?)

  15. molonglo says:

    Thanks Eileen. I worried ‘about ‘worried’ in 18a but you set me right. Wild, accurate guesses gave me 8d and 9a and these led to my getting the last two: 5d and 11a, both very nice clues. Eureka I screamed, getting 12a.

  16. Matt says:

    Great puzzle today.
    It could be a spring chicken in the coq au vin!

  17. tupu says:

    Hi Stella
    Thanks. The link to ‘pharmacies’, came as a very interesting surprise to me when I checked. Many languages use words like apotheque, apotheke, apoteek etc. for chemist shops, and we have apothecary etc. for various related uses in English.

  18. Stella Heath says:

    Hi tupu,

    I actually knew “apotheke” in German, but didn’t want to spoil the surprise :)

  19. Dave Ellison says:

    I was up observing all night, so this was the first time I have done the Guardian Xword on line, as soon as it appeared. I completely missed the theme, failed on 11 ac (I was another DIVEr), and thought it a fairly mediocre offering. But seeing the theme transforms it to something good.

    Memos to self, don’t start at 12.30 in the morning if you want to appreciate a crossword; and, like others, remember a theme with Crucible.

  20. sidey says:

    Rather a lot of springs are spiral too.

  21. medici says:

    I just thought 24a was missing an “S”. Detects = scents = aromas. But then “say” would be redundant.

  22. Robi says:

    Absolute torture (but masochistically enjoyable,) although I got there in the end, despite p=post (yuk!) – it’s supposed to be a medical abbreviation as in (PAR) post anesthesia recovery. Maybe someone medical could enlighten us as to whether it is ever used.

    Thanks Eileen for a great blog – I, of course, completely missed the theme in wrestling to find the answers. Kate Humble is not on my radar; I thought it was something to do with tUMBLErs that ‘receive the thrust of the mainspring [Chambers],’ although in a firearm. Are there tumblers also in old-fashioned watches?

    As medici @21, I thought detect=SCENTS; as Brian H @2 says, if it is supposed to sound like sense it’s a naff clue. In UNILATERAL, I was about to object about ATE=take until I read the blog and found it related to worried. I thought TIDE was clever; my last one in. Can’t say that I’ve heard of ESTIVATE before, although it was a good clue.

  23. Robi says:

    Kathryn’s Dad @10; well spotted about June 1st, although my Spring doesn’t end until June 21st (but I’m a scientific nerd.)

  24. grandpuzzler says:

    Thanks to Crucible for the puzzle and to Eileen for explaining how it all came together. Looked for a theme but couldn’t spot it. Must try harder. Brian H @2 and Robi @22 state that SCENTS does not sound like SENSE. You may be right so I need to find out which word I’ve been mispronouncing for seventy years. Could be my NW accent is the problem.

    Cheers…

  25. Wolfie says:

    I enjoyed this very much, despite being one of those who missed the theme. I do have a couple of scientific quibbles though:

    A ‘Solstice’ is a point in the earth’s orbit around our star when day length starts to increase in one hemisphere and decrease in the other. It has nothing to with movement of the sun. The clue would be correct if it read ‘APPARENT biannual turning point in star’s career.

    When a female mammal is ‘in season’ she (or more precisely her egg) is ready to be fertilised, rather than to fertilise. The active verb ‘to fertilise’ in the context of sexual reproduction represents a male function.

    Thank you to Eileen for the blog, which helped me to resolve some issues of parsing.

  26. RCWhiting says:

    Thanks all
    Grandpuzzler,my accent is west country and I cannot envisage any way in which ‘scents’ differs from ‘sense’. Perhaps the objectors could explain how they pronounce the two words.
    I know that some single initial letter abbreviations are often dodgy but surely P=Post is extremely familiar and widely used in Post Ofice = PO.

  27. Robi says:

    RCWhiting @26; ‘scents’ has a ‘t,’ which is pronounced without a similar sound in sense. I knew, of course, that PO=post office, but ‘p’ by itself is rarely, if ever, used as an abbreviation for post. As I have said before RBC=red blood cells, or RGB=red, blue, green in monitors but r=red seems to be forbidden in these circles. What’s the difference?

  28. Robi says:

    Wolfie @25; I agree with your points, which I also noticed when solving the puzzle.

  29. tupu says:

    HI Wolfie and robi

    I read ready to fertilise as ready for fertilisation. I think you could ask of a letter ‘is this ready to post?’. Perhaps better examples are ‘ready to wear’ or ‘ready to eat’.

  30. Thomas99 says:

    Wolfie (25) Robi (29)
    Re 5a
    You must both get very scared when you’re told the dinner’s ready to eat!

  31. Thomas99 says:

    Sorry Tupu – cross-posting; don’t know how that happened.

  32. Stella Heath says:

    Sense/scents – do homophones have to be exact in crosswords? Likewise, is scientific accuracy so important as for its absence to render a clue “poor”?

  33. walruss says:

    I agree with Wanderer, that the theme revealed in an unassuming way, much to its credit. Well done to Crucible. Re Stella and Brian I would say that setters should be more careful! Nothing seems to annoy people more than a disregard for their own dialect! My roots are in Cheshire, so I get my fair share.

  34. tupu says:

    Hi Stella et al

    We have had all this many times. The word homophone never actually appears in such clues which should always be read, as you imply, as ‘sounds something like’. The key element is the unvoiced ‘s’ sound at the end of both words. :) We have a Swedish friend who asked for ‘pans’ in a department store but pronounced it with an unvoiced ‘s’ and was directed to the underwear (pants) department.

  35. Ian says:

    Thanks to both tupu and Stella for the input on the linguistics on bodega. Much appreciated.

  36. MattD says:

    Wolfie, the sun rising and setting points move north and south throughout the year and the solstice is when it changes direction. From where I stand the sun is moving and as all motion in the universe is relative to the observer I prefer to think that I am stationary and everything is moving around me. Does that make me sound a tad arrogant?

    Valid clue def in my opinion unless you need every clue involving motion to include the point from where the motion is viewed

  37. RCWhiting says:

    Robi #27
    “RCWhiting @26; ‘scents’ has a ‘t,’ which is pronounced without a similar sound in sense.”
    I do love your air of certainty. I do not pronounce the ‘t’ and clearly I am not alone.

  38. Robi says:

    RCWhiting @37; maybe it’s a dialect thing, but I have never come across someone who doesn’t pronounce the ‘t’ in scents. Perhaps we should meet at the next Sloggers & Betters to have a conversation.

    Thomas99 @30; the issue is not ‘ready to,’ but fertilise, which females usually do not do. It’s a small point, but whenever there is a slight inaccuracy in a reference to classics there seems to be an outcry. Scientific accuracy should be just as precious. Having said that, as Stella @32 says, it’s just a crossword so we shouldn’t get too exercised about exact terminology. I think Wolfie @25 was just pointing out the possible issue with the clues for the benefit of those without a scientific training. We all learn something when we visit this site.

  39. Roger says:

    Hi Eileen. As sidey suggests, 23a probably merits an “*” for spiral spring . Bath physicist was just brilliant.

    Robi @22. I don’t think you’ll find any tumblers in a clock or watch … more likely as part of a lock mechanism (or circus !).

    … and here’s me thinking that Bodega drove a chariot !

  40. Wolfie says:

    Hi MattD @36. I live in a post-Copernican world!

    (I am going to London next week. Would it surprise you if I said that London was coming to me?)

    Tupu and Thomas: point taken!

  41. Stella Heath says:

    You may be right, Robi.

    Just for the record, some years ago ( I think they were about ten or twelve, and mine’s now 28) my North London-born nephew informed my Spanish-born son that “you don’t pronouce t’s”! :lol:

  42. RCWhiting says:

    Robi #38
    Now you have got me very intrigued. I am no expert in this field. It could even be that I am pronouncing an invisible ‘t’ in sense.
    What I am certain of is that if I randomly pronounced one of the two in your presence you would be unable to say which it was.

  43. MatthewD says:

    Hi Wolfie@40

    Didn’t Copernicus recant his outlandish theory? Someone should tell the Vatican if he was right!

    I only mean that relative to me, the sun “careers” across the horizon, turning from a northerly direction to a southerly direction (and v.v.) at the solstices.

    London coming to you? I believe Einstein is attributed to having said something similar about a floor whilst he was in a lift – and who am I to argue with an apocryphal saying of a genius?

    Would like to add that I do enjoy crosswords like this that don’t require me to have learnt random poems or to be able to recite Hamlet by heart.

  44. tupu says:

    Hi robi @38

    See Wolfie @40 (thanks Wolfie)

    The point is that if clothes are ready to wear, you wear them. The clothes don’t do the wearing. Or if food is ready to eat, you eat it: the food does not do the eating. Or if a letter is ready to post, the letter is posted. Thus, if a female said to be ready to fertilise, you can read it as ‘to be fertilised’.

  45. Robi says:

    tupu @44; probably not worth the effort, but I can’t agree. If a letter is ready to post, it is not posted; if clothes are ready-to-wear, you don’t have to wear them; if food is ready to eat, you don’t have to eat it etc. If a female is ready to fertilise this is not the same as ready to be fertilised IMHO.

    Whilst on your letter theme; if I have a letter which I want to p; what does that mean? P=post is still not very good, even if it is in P.O., p.m. etc as Eileen said.

  46. tupu says:

    HI Robi

    I’m afraid you’ve lost me. If clothes are ready to wear, you don’t have to wear them of course! But they are ready to be worn. If food is ready to eat, it is ready to be eaten. If a letter is ready to post, it is ready to be posted. If a female is ready to fertilise, she is ready to be fertilised. All 4 have the same construction with passive rather than active implications. :) At least that’s how I see it.

  47. Sil van den Hoek says:

    Spring is in the air!
    A theme? Well, perhaps, but at least there was a nice flavour of new life etc.

    And the crossword?
    I fear that we found it a mixed bag.
    No question about the Great Surfaces.
    But the hilariously good 12ac (ARCHIMEDES) was typical of what we thought was missing today.
    In our opinion today’s puzzle suffered, at places, a bit from Philistine’s Disease: splendidly written clues with fine surfaces, but also with definitions that gave it all away too soon.
    Once I read “Bath physicist”, I knew it was Archimedes.
    Similar things in 4d (“spring 1968″, Prague – what else?), in 7d (“team” – first thing I think of is Eleven), in 20d (Less, so obvious), in another winning surface 17d (Cleans – it took only 10 seconds) and in 6ac (Source, of course).

    Only the NW gave us some trouble (esp. Studio, Tide and Humble) ; we would have liked to have struggled a bit more.

    I find it hard to be that critical because Crucible is high on my list, but this one was a bit lightish – ah well, it’s Spring after all :). Maybe the setter spoiled us somewhat with his eminent Redshank (FT), a real cracker, last week.

    When so many enjoyed this crossword to such an extent, then who are we to think (slightly) differently.
    Superb writing, yet not fully satisfying to us.
    I guess it’s just us.

  48. grandpuzzler says:

    Thanks for all the sense/scents input. I’ve decided to cancel my appointment with the Speech Pathologist and not change my pronunciation.

    Cheers…

  49. Wolfie says:

    Hi Matthew @ 43. I think you’ll find it was Galileo who recanted, albeit after being threatened with torture. Copernicus managed to avoid the attentions of the Inquisition. My point about the solstice being a result of the earth’s movement rather than the sun’s is valid, I think. I am pleased to have triggered some discussion of the science though – makes a change from Latin gerundives and Greek mythology.

  50. Paul B says:

    Robi’s P = post as in Post Office = no-no I like: I don’t much care for single-letter indicators borrowed from the pairs that appear in Chambers. If it’s there in its own right, fine. That is my pronouncement in the matter.

    Speaking (as it were) of which, like that most intelligent of fish Mr RC Whiting I too can sense no discernible T in my enunciation of SCENTS. I am from Hampshire, if that helps.

    Good puzzle though, and from a smashing compiler.

  51. Stella Heath says:

    My dear Wolfie, I don’t think anyone doubts the science in this day and age; the only question is whether it is relevant to crossword setting, which is I believe, based on a fairly broad concept of “general” knowledge.

    I think Greek mythology falls into this concept, and as for Latin gerundives, that’s the sort of thing we discuss on this site, rather than something setters or solvers need to be aware of.

    Personally, I enjoy crosswords, first for the challenge, and then from what I can learn from them; so any discussion, whether scientific, linguistic, classical, geographical etc. that ensues is welcome.

  52. Geoff says:

    Thanks, Eileen and everyone.

    I came late to the puzzle today and signally failed to spot the theme, although as WATCHSPRING was one of my last entries (and finally explained for me the clue for HUMBLE) I am not entirely surprised.

    Favourite clues were 5a and 12a. In the expression ‘ready to….’ the following verb can have a passive sense (as tupu says), provided it is transitive; in ‘ready to go’, for instance, the verb is intransitive and therefore cannot have a passive sense. This construction is not limited to English: ‘pret a porter’ means ‘ready to be worn’. Therefore I am relaxed about ‘ready to fertilise’. The definition for ARCHIMEDES is pretty obvious, as Sil says, but this is compensated for by a clue which is an amusing &lit.

    SOLSTICE is from the Latin ‘solstitium’, meaning ‘sun standing still’. Clearly we now know that the Sun does no such thing, but the clue refers to its ‘career’ across the sky, which can only mean its apparent motion across the sky as viewed from the Earth – so in this sense it is a turning point and the clue is perfectly valid.

  53. tupu says:

    Hi Wolfie

    Thanks for your comment @40

    :) So Coppernickers (as Dick Bentley – I think – once called him)was right and Ptolemy with all his epicycles was wrong after all! As a Roman Greek-speaker he didn’t stand a chance, I suppose, with all that grammar and mythology to cope with. But the sun, like other great stars, is a great pretender, and perhaps as in the theatre or here in a crossword we can fancifully suspend our disbelief with no great harm.

  54. MatthewD says:

    Wolfie

    D’Oh! I stand corrected – Copernicus was careful to make clear it was a neat mathematical trick to explain the planetary motions and in no way contradicted doctrine.

    For what it’s worth, am with you on the fertilise question, but do enjoy a bit of Greek mythology.

  55. Wolfie says:

    Sorry Stella and Tupu, and pax vobiscum!

    I hope we have all moved on from the CP Snow/FR Leavis debates about the ‘Two Cultures’ but I do appreciate it when setters display as much insight into science as they do of the classical arts. (Araucaria is a shining example of someone who does.)

    I do like a good gerundive though!

  56. tupu says:

    Hi Wolfie
    Thanks again!
    :) I met C.P.Snow only once. I went into a room where he was sitting, and he said ‘I’m Snow’. I recognised him and replied ‘I know’ and added ‘I’m tupu’ (more or less) but conversation did not blossom!
    I never met Leavis, but did once drop a horse chestnut into a half-open umbrella he was holding behind his back in the market square. I suppose I was hoping for a Newtonian apple moment for him as it bounced off his head when he next opened the thing. Perhaps fortunately, it stayed dry but I would like to think it gave him food for thought eventually.

  57. Carrots says:

    I`m ashamed to admit that I failed to finish this by quite a margin. Eileen`s helpful blog had me fired up with self-reproach, but the foregoing posts have put me firmly in my place. I shall remember Wolfie`s (@55) “I do like a good Gerundive though” for as long as I don`t discover what it means.

    I always sensed Tupu was a bit of a rascal at heart and his confessions delight.

    Maybe it will be the pleb`s turn tomorrow….where I can, once again, be a Flash Harry

  58. rob in wolves says:

    looking for themed clues would I be right to say that coq au vin is no spring chicken

  59. Robi says:

    Hi tupu @46 :) . Last comment on this. When you say: ‘If a female is ready to fertilise,’ that is the nub of the discussion. A female is never ready to fertilise and there is no object to the verb because it can’t happen. I would submit, therefore, that this expression cannot be turned around to ‘she is ready to be fertilised.’

    Anyway, another day another puzzle – let’s see what today’s brings if I have time to look at it.

  60. Geoff says:

    Robi: You can say ‘the dinner is ready to eat’, ‘the suit is ready to wear’, ‘the latter is ready to post’, ‘the car is ready to drive’, ‘the house is ready to occupy’ etc etc. This is a construction that can be employed with any transitive verb and gives it an unusual passive sense. Why not ‘the female is ready to fertilise’?

  61. Wolfie says:

    Geoff, I hesitate to return to this issue, but it seems to me that in all the examples you quote the subject of the verb is an inanimate thing. The implied passive construction therefore gives rise to no ambiguity because nobody would imagine that a house could occupy, or a car could drive.

    The situation is different if the verb subject is animate. If I am told that my grandson is ‘ready to eat’ I go and get his tea ready, I do not imagine that he is being offered up for cannibalism. There is a real distinction between the two constructions. Given that fertlisation is an active process involving an animate female I believe that Robi has a point.

  62. Robi says:

    Geoff @60; basically, females don’t fertilise anything; it’s only the males.

  63. Geoff says:

    It’s perfectly possible to say, when Sunday lunch is ready: ‘The chicken is ready to eat’. In context (and so many cryptic clues rely on phraseology taken out of context) this would be interpreted as ‘the chicken is ready to be eaten’. So the construction doesn’t only work with inanimate subjects.

  64. Wolfie says:

    Geoff – is a cooked chicked an animate object?

  65. Geoff says:

    How about ‘the oysters are ready to eat’?

    Just admit defeat!

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