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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,362 / Chifonie</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162869</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162869</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Taxi Phil,
&quot;In my opinion this compiler should appear on a Monday, or not at all&quot;
That&#039;s (meaning: that is :)) indeed an opinion.
I fully understand that, if you can solve this puzzle with an average of 10 seconds per clue, this is certainly not your cup of tea.
But many Guardian solvers are probably not as experienced as you and perhaps they found this puzzle a gentle start to their working day (did I say: working day? today? :)).

Chifonie has been around for ages and all at once it looks like we need another setter to shoot at. Chifonie&#039;s style has always been similar to today&#039;s offering. And to be fair, normally his cluing isn&#039;t sloppy at all. Yes, a limited number of devices, but rather precise and generally smooth surfaces. I admit, today was not his best.
The Monday, fine (but we need Rufus too!). But saying &#039;or not at all&#039; is not really fair on this setter.
Maybe you (and others) shouldn&#039;t just do Chifonies any more.
Or turn to the Indie instead, for a greater challenge.

BTW, we found 8d one of his smilier clues (glad he didn&#039;t make an ellipsis with 7d).
And we thought, 10ac was very nice.
But twice &#039;dodgy&#039; as an anagrind (5ac, 18ac) should have been avoided.

Just like Eileen we found the container indicator in 24d (&#039;found stowing away in&#039;) unnecessarily wordy - one can take away half of it. My PinC thought that it should have been &#039;stowed away&#039; instead of &#039;stowing away&#039;. I have no opinion on that.

Finally, I fully agree with John who made clear that Chifonie could (should!) have said &quot;Stunt man died? A ruddy disaster!&quot;.
Then this whole discussion on &quot;apostrophe s&quot; would not have taken place.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting one.

I knew already Geoff&#039;s opinion on this &#039;device&#039;.
On the one hand I do agree (and I see his point, no mistake about that), on the other hand it is not that black and white.
In real life there are in fact 3 uses of &quot;apostrophe s&quot;:
- meaning: is
- meaning: has
- as a genitive (indicating possession)
In Crosswordland the use is often limited to &quot;has&quot; (becoming +).
And there we have the problem.

Let&#039;s take: &quot;Dad&#039;s Army&quot;
This clearly means: &quot;Army of Dad&quot;, but in extremis it cán be read as &quot;Dad is Army&quot; or &quot;Dad has Army&quot;.
In that sense it is very different from &quot;That&#039;s OK&quot;, which can only be seen as &quot;That is OK&quot;.
Therefore I have no problem with &quot;Dad&#039;s Army&quot; for DAD+ARMY, but I do object when someone uses &quot;That&#039;s OK&quot; for THAT+OK.

This is where I draw the line , just like the majority of setters.
What Chifonie did in 5d (and also in 7d and 23d) wouldn&#039;t be my choice, as in each of these cases &quot;has&quot; is out of place in the surface.
Even so, setters do it nowadays as they are breaking down clues into independent units. Like it or not.
Many of us favour things like &quot;Sad journalists indeed&quot; for DEPRESSED, but for the same reasons Geoff disapproves of  the &quot;apostrophe s&quot; device we could reject this one, because &quot;Sad journalists in deed&quot; doesn&#039;t mean anything. Or does it?

One more example:
&quot;Setter&#039;s workplace&quot; is clearly meant to be &quot;Workplace of setter&quot;.
But it can be read as &quot;Setter has workplace&quot; (by which I mean: &quot;Setter has workplace&quot; is not meaningless), so I+&#039;WORKPLACE&#039; is fine by me.
&quot;Setter&#039;s work is crap&quot; is something I would nót convert into I+&#039;WORK&#039;, because &quot;Setter has work is crap&quot; is, um, crap. :)

But be aware! Setters do, even Araucaria. He is a setter that finds construction more important than surfaces. At times you first have to cut the clues in little pieces and then fit the pieces together (regardless of the surface and/or the grammar).

I wouldn&#039;t have done what Chifonie did in 5d, all the more as it was unnecessary.
I wouldn&#039;t want to do it as in 7d and 23d, but it happens.
If you don&#039;t believe me, keep your eyes open from now on.

Phew! :)

Thank you, Mark, for your blog.
If you want my Birmingham puzzle, just send an email to me (as a blogger you should have it).
Alternatively - and others are more than welcome too - contact me at dalibor1@virginmedia.com .
And please, don&#039;t dismiss 29ac as a poor cryptic definition ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taxi Phil,<br />
&#8220;In my opinion this compiler should appear on a Monday, or not at all&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s (meaning: that is <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ) indeed an opinion.<br />
I fully understand that, if you can solve this puzzle with an average of 10 seconds per clue, this is certainly not your cup of tea.<br />
But many Guardian solvers are probably not as experienced as you and perhaps they found this puzzle a gentle start to their working day (did I say: working day? today? <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).</p>
<p>Chifonie has been around for ages and all at once it looks like we need another setter to shoot at. Chifonie&#8217;s style has always been similar to today&#8217;s offering. And to be fair, normally his cluing isn&#8217;t sloppy at all. Yes, a limited number of devices, but rather precise and generally smooth surfaces. I admit, today was not his best.<br />
The Monday, fine (but we need Rufus too!). But saying &#8216;or not at all&#8217; is not really fair on this setter.<br />
Maybe you (and others) shouldn&#8217;t just do Chifonies any more.<br />
Or turn to the Indie instead, for a greater challenge.</p>
<p>BTW, we found 8d one of his smilier clues (glad he didn&#8217;t make an ellipsis with 7d).<br />
And we thought, 10ac was very nice.<br />
But twice &#8216;dodgy&#8217; as an anagrind (5ac, 18ac) should have been avoided.</p>
<p>Just like Eileen we found the container indicator in 24d (&#8216;found stowing away in&#8217;) unnecessarily wordy &#8211; one can take away half of it. My PinC thought that it should have been &#8216;stowed away&#8217; instead of &#8216;stowing away&#8217;. I have no opinion on that.</p>
<p>Finally, I fully agree with John who made clear that Chifonie could (should!) have said &#8220;Stunt man died? A ruddy disaster!&#8221;.<br />
Then this whole discussion on &#8220;apostrophe s&#8221; would not have taken place.<br />
Nevertheless, it is an interesting one.</p>
<p>I knew already Geoff&#8217;s opinion on this &#8216;device&#8217;.<br />
On the one hand I do agree (and I see his point, no mistake about that), on the other hand it is not that black and white.<br />
In real life there are in fact 3 uses of &#8220;apostrophe s&#8221;:<br />
- meaning: is<br />
- meaning: has<br />
- as a genitive (indicating possession)<br />
In Crosswordland the use is often limited to &#8220;has&#8221; (becoming +).<br />
And there we have the problem.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take: &#8220;Dad&#8217;s Army&#8221;<br />
This clearly means: &#8220;Army of Dad&#8221;, but in extremis it cán be read as &#8220;Dad is Army&#8221; or &#8220;Dad has Army&#8221;.<br />
In that sense it is very different from &#8220;That&#8217;s OK&#8221;, which can only be seen as &#8220;That is OK&#8221;.<br />
Therefore I have no problem with &#8220;Dad&#8217;s Army&#8221; for DAD+ARMY, but I do object when someone uses &#8220;That&#8217;s OK&#8221; for THAT+OK.</p>
<p>This is where I draw the line , just like the majority of setters.<br />
What Chifonie did in 5d (and also in 7d and 23d) wouldn&#8217;t be my choice, as in each of these cases &#8220;has&#8221; is out of place in the surface.<br />
Even so, setters do it nowadays as they are breaking down clues into independent units. Like it or not.<br />
Many of us favour things like &#8220;Sad journalists indeed&#8221; for DEPRESSED, but for the same reasons Geoff disapproves of  the &#8220;apostrophe s&#8221; device we could reject this one, because &#8220;Sad journalists in deed&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean anything. Or does it?</p>
<p>One more example:<br />
&#8220;Setter&#8217;s workplace&#8221; is clearly meant to be &#8220;Workplace of setter&#8221;.<br />
But it can be read as &#8220;Setter has workplace&#8221; (by which I mean: &#8220;Setter has workplace&#8221; is not meaningless), so I+&#8217;WORKPLACE&#8217; is fine by me.<br />
&#8220;Setter&#8217;s work is crap&#8221; is something I would nót convert into I+&#8217;WORK&#8217;, because &#8220;Setter has work is crap&#8221; is, um, crap. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But be aware! Setters do, even Araucaria. He is a setter that finds construction more important than surfaces. At times you first have to cut the clues in little pieces and then fit the pieces together (regardless of the surface and/or the grammar).</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t have done what Chifonie did in 5d, all the more as it was unnecessary.<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t want to do it as in 7d and 23d, but it happens.<br />
If you don&#8217;t believe me, keep your eyes open from now on.</p>
<p>Phew! <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Thank you, Mark, for your blog.<br />
If you want my Birmingham puzzle, just send an email to me (as a blogger you should have it).<br />
Alternatively &#8211; and others are more than welcome too &#8211; contact me at <a href="mailto:dalibor1@virginmedia.com">dalibor1@virginmedia.com</a> .<br />
And please, don&#8217;t dismiss 29ac as a poor cryptic definition &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Taxi Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162863</link>
		<dc:creator>Taxi Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In view of earlier comments, I asked my partner to tackle this puzzle (it had taken me a shade under 5 minutes, and the slack clueing really hacked me off !)

Denise is certainly a novice, and takes an hour to do the Daily Mail down to the last couple of clues before waving a white flag under my nose.

This kept her occupied for 20 minutes, by which time she gave it up having failed to get 12A, 14A, 18A (which she hadn&#039;t heard of), and 8D (she groaned over that one !)

She didn&#039;t really enjoy it at all. Her comment was &quot;I quite enjoy Rufus occasionally, even if I get left with half a dozen, but this didn&#039;t float my boat.&quot;

In my opinion this compiler should appear on a Monday, or not at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In view of earlier comments, I asked my partner to tackle this puzzle (it had taken me a shade under 5 minutes, and the slack clueing really hacked me off !)</p>
<p>Denise is certainly a novice, and takes an hour to do the Daily Mail down to the last couple of clues before waving a white flag under my nose.</p>
<p>This kept her occupied for 20 minutes, by which time she gave it up having failed to get 12A, 14A, 18A (which she hadn&#8217;t heard of), and 8D (she groaned over that one !)</p>
<p>She didn&#8217;t really enjoy it at all. Her comment was &#8220;I quite enjoy Rufus occasionally, even if I get left with half a dozen, but this didn&#8217;t float my boat.&#8221;</p>
<p>In my opinion this compiler should appear on a Monday, or not at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Stella Heath</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162843</link>
		<dc:creator>Stella Heath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Tuck@35, very witty, but no. Meanings depend on context.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tuck@35, very witty, but no. Meanings depend on context.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: RCWhiting</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162842</link>
		<dc:creator>RCWhiting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I often wonder whether some setters deliberately go looking for the most obscure definition they can find in the dreaded Chambers.&quot;
Azed does, almost invariably. I always start looking from the last definition!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I often wonder whether some setters deliberately go looking for the most obscure definition they can find in the dreaded Chambers.&#8221;<br />
Azed does, almost invariably. I always start looking from the last definition!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162837</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks chas and RC for pointing out my need of the &quot;a&quot; in 5dn, but my point remains.
And to mike04 for being the one this time to scour Chambers for a defendable definition. If you asked a roomful of reasonably educated people for a list of definitions of the word &quot;with&quot;, I doubt whether &quot;in spite of having&quot; would make an appearance. I often wonder whether some setters deliberately go looking for the most obscure definition they can find in the dreaded Chambers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks chas and RC for pointing out my need of the &#8220;a&#8221; in 5dn, but my point remains.<br />
And to mike04 for being the one this time to scour Chambers for a defendable definition. If you asked a roomful of reasonably educated people for a list of definitions of the word &#8220;with&#8221;, I doubt whether &#8220;in spite of having&#8221; would make an appearance. I often wonder whether some setters deliberately go looking for the most obscure definition they can find in the dreaded Chambers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tuck</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162836</link>
		<dc:creator>Tuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162836</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stella@15 do you mean they just about sit water?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stella@15 do you mean they just about sit water?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Carrots</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162829</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrots</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162829</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From early on in a fairly quick solve, I suspected this puzzle would give the Usual Suspects a few bones to chew over....and from the foregoing posts, it seems I wasn`t far wrong. But I thought the focus would be on rare usages, stretched definitions and clumsy structures:

(lay)MAN= Fiance
VEIN= Mood
SI(f)T = Hold
SIFT = Investigate
(Dared)EVIL = Disaster

....but that darned apostrophe got in the way. (I`m jealous, really, because I have as much linguistic analysis at my disposal as a Jersey Cow.

I hope tomorrrow`s puzzle takes more than half-a-pint to solve!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From early on in a fairly quick solve, I suspected this puzzle would give the Usual Suspects a few bones to chew over&#8230;.and from the foregoing posts, it seems I wasn`t far wrong. But I thought the focus would be on rare usages, stretched definitions and clumsy structures:</p>
<p>(lay)MAN= Fiance<br />
VEIN= Mood<br />
SI(f)T = Hold<br />
SIFT = Investigate<br />
(Dared)EVIL = Disaster</p>
<p>&#8230;.but that darned apostrophe got in the way. (I`m jealous, really, because I have as much linguistic analysis at my disposal as a Jersey Cow.</p>
<p>I hope tomorrrow`s puzzle takes more than half-a-pint to solve!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: NeilW</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162827</link>
		<dc:creator>NeilW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi all.

My point at the start was to highlight what I see as the basic problem of this puzzle: solvability with no satisfaction, only irritation. Sorry if I was a little contentious but, probably a little vitriol was required - if not this really didn&#039;t merit much comment at all. I guess, finally, my point is: if a crossword is going to be doable at twenty paces, at least the clueing should be tight! Araucaria delights when he stretches or even breaks the rules but there&#039;s a gulf between the puckish and the careless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all.</p>
<p>My point at the start was to highlight what I see as the basic problem of this puzzle: solvability with no satisfaction, only irritation. Sorry if I was a little contentious but, probably a little vitriol was required &#8211; if not this really didn&#8217;t merit much comment at all. I guess, finally, my point is: if a crossword is going to be doable at twenty paces, at least the clueing should be tight! Araucaria delights when he stretches or even breaks the rules but there&#8217;s a gulf between the puckish and the careless.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: apiarist</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162824</link>
		<dc:creator>apiarist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think fiance is fine. It has to be a man as surely a woman would be a fiancee ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think fiance is fine. It has to be a man as surely a woman would be a fiancee ?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mike04</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/06/30/guardian-25362-chifonie/#comment-162818</link>
		<dc:creator>mike04</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=31208#comment-162818</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi John @27, and previous posts

&quot;in spite of having&quot; is given as a definition of &quot;with&quot; in Chambers.
The following example is provided: &quot;With all his money he&#039;s still unhappy&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John @27, and previous posts</p>
<p>&#8220;in spite of having&#8221; is given as a definition of &#8220;with&#8221; in Chambers.<br />
The following example is provided: &#8220;With all his money he&#8217;s still unhappy&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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