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	<title>Comments on: Independent 7738/Mordred</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Allan_C</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166721</link>
		<dc:creator>Allan_C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2011 12:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I doubt if there is actually such a person as &#039;yer average solver&#039; (pace Cumbrian).  On the one hand there are those who (attempt to) solve while commuting, hence with no access to reference works; on the other those like me who solve at their leisure and will happily go off and consult Chambers, Collins, Google, Brewer, a word finder or whatever to get there in the end. As it&#039;s often said, you can&#039;t please all of the people all of the time!  So some days we get a straightforward solve and on others we struggle.  What intrigues me, though, is that bloggers often report difficulty with puzzles I&#039;ve found easy, and vice-versa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt if there is actually such a person as &#8216;yer average solver&#8217; (pace Cumbrian).  On the one hand there are those who (attempt to) solve while commuting, hence with no access to reference works; on the other those like me who solve at their leisure and will happily go off and consult Chambers, Collins, Google, Brewer, a word finder or whatever to get there in the end. As it&#8217;s often said, you can&#8217;t please all of the people all of the time!  So some days we get a straightforward solve and on others we struggle.  What intrigues me, though, is that bloggers often report difficulty with puzzles I&#8217;ve found easy, and vice-versa.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim T</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166715</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2011 10:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great puzzle. &#039;Magnificent technical achievement&#039; undoubtedly but also highly enjoyable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great puzzle. &#8216;Magnificent technical achievement&#8217; undoubtedly but also highly enjoyable.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166704</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2011 08:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I thought this was superb - a real tour de force!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought this was superb &#8211; a real tour de force!</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166684</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 23:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think a Nina should have some kind of connection to the crossword as such.
This was a random Nina, making it &quot;a magnificent technical achievement&quot; as Anax says @4?  Well, perhaps it was.
But can I (the average solver) be bothered? Not really, I fear.

The actual cluing is a lot more important, and 13ac [deleting &#039;me&#039; = deleting &#039;mi&#039;?], 21 ac [Oxford being &#039;a city&#039; - I think &#039;a&#039; could have been incorporated in the clue], 25ac [INES is more Portuguese than Spanish], 5d [RASP defined by just &#039;sound&#039;?] and 22d [too wordy for FA] all have things to worry about.
But I liked 16ac (GHOSTWRITER) and 18d (ROAD RAGE) very much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a Nina should have some kind of connection to the crossword as such.<br />
This was a random Nina, making it &#8220;a magnificent technical achievement&#8221; as Anax says @4?  Well, perhaps it was.<br />
But can I (the average solver) be bothered? Not really, I fear.</p>
<p>The actual cluing is a lot more important, and 13ac [deleting 'me' = deleting 'mi'?], 21 ac [Oxford being 'a city' - I think 'a' could have been incorporated in the clue], 25ac [INES is more Portuguese than Spanish], 5d [RASP defined by just 'sound'?] and 22d [too wordy for FA] all have things to worry about.<br />
But I liked 16ac (GHOSTWRITER) and 18d (ROAD RAGE) very much.</p>
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		<title>By: flashling</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166683</link>
		<dc:creator>flashling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 23:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thought this was fine, did dead tree, found finishing hard with words I didn&#039;t know and missed the nina completely despite alarm bells in head screaming nina. Cheers John and Mordred]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought this was fine, did dead tree, found finishing hard with words I didn&#8217;t know and missed the nina completely despite alarm bells in head screaming nina. Cheers John and Mordred</p>
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		<title>By: twencelas</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166681</link>
		<dc:creator>twencelas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166681</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t see how you can criticise such a beautiful puzzle. Evolution is good Quixote. And to be honest Nina&#039;s are good and yes thare are a few words not in common usage but they are clued impeccably. Thanks Mordred for a puzzle that amused me!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how you can criticise such a beautiful puzzle. Evolution is good Quixote. And to be honest Nina&#8217;s are good and yes thare are a few words not in common usage but they are clued impeccably. Thanks Mordred for a puzzle that amused me!</p>
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		<title>By: anax</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166678</link>
		<dc:creator>anax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Cumbrian

I absolutely agree! However...
The main reason I think it would be good to have a sort of &#039;guide to Ninas&#039; (among guides to other quirks associated with the various crossword series) is that the presence of obscure answers can be a clue to a Nina&#039;s presence and I doubt many solvers will have latched onto that. There are lots of simple words to fit the pattern -O-T for example, so why would the setter choose something like HOUT/DOST/TOLT etc? If you examine such oddities you may - perhaps should - be persuaded to check the appropriate rows/columns to see if other letters look like contributing to a hidden string.
As K&#039;sD says, the occasional Nina is well established in the Indy. Other than sometimes forcing in uncommon words, if you spot them they can be helpful; an educated guess about one or two can give you free letters that would otherwise be unchecked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Cumbrian</p>
<p>I absolutely agree! However&#8230;<br />
The main reason I think it would be good to have a sort of &#8216;guide to Ninas&#8217; (among guides to other quirks associated with the various crossword series) is that the presence of obscure answers can be a clue to a Nina&#8217;s presence and I doubt many solvers will have latched onto that. There are lots of simple words to fit the pattern -O-T for example, so why would the setter choose something like HOUT/DOST/TOLT etc? If you examine such oddities you may &#8211; perhaps should &#8211; be persuaded to check the appropriate rows/columns to see if other letters look like contributing to a hidden string.<br />
As K&#8217;sD says, the occasional Nina is well established in the Indy. Other than sometimes forcing in uncommon words, if you spot them they can be helpful; an educated guess about one or two can give you free letters that would otherwise be unchecked.</p>
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		<title>By: Stella Heath</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166677</link>
		<dc:creator>Stella Heath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the blog, John.

There&#039;s been much interesting discussion above, and I find myself in the camp that enjoy a good challenge, and the occasional surprise is always welcome, but not at the expense of an overly obscure puzzle, however fair the clues, once solved.

My only real contribution here is the suggestion that the tail of the oriental tiger is indeed very long, financially speaking :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the blog, John.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s been much interesting discussion above, and I find myself in the camp that enjoy a good challenge, and the occasional surprise is always welcome, but not at the expense of an overly obscure puzzle, however fair the clues, once solved.</p>
<p>My only real contribution here is the suggestion that the tail of the oriental tiger is indeed very long, financially speaking <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Cumbrian</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166674</link>
		<dc:creator>Cumbrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 21:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m probably yer average solver. Over many years I&#039;ve had periods of religiously having a bash at a puzzle on a daily basis interspersed with long periods - months - of not touching one following a decision to stop forking out for dead trees; so an addict with periods of remission - a sporaddict, perhaps? I&#039;d never spent time discussing a puzzle with others, and it wasn&#039;t until I happened to chance upon this blogsite that I&#039;d even heard of, let alone noticed, a nina. Now I frequently find them to be an enjoyable minor extra, an example being the recent Fawlty Towers reference. 

My gripe is not with the construction, nor lack of presence, of a nina. It&#039;s with the inclusion in the grid of several words which, as yer average solver, I couldn&#039;t reasonably be expected to have ever come across in a normal lifetime. Or even two. Saggar? Biga? Tael? Yes, all solvable from the wordplay, but I find it unsatisfying to arrive at a string of letters which mean nothing to me, other than they fit the clue. Such words may be buried in Chambers, but if it was stated upfront that some solutions were only to be found in a Klingon dictionary, would that make them acceptable just because they could be derived from the wordplay?

I can accept that sometimes a setter has to use an overly obscure word, and its inclusion at least broadens one&#039;s vocabulary, but several such words in the same grid points to something beyond necessity.

To repeat, I&#039;m nothing more than yer average solver. But average solvers do represent the vast majority of the target audience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m probably yer average solver. Over many years I&#8217;ve had periods of religiously having a bash at a puzzle on a daily basis interspersed with long periods &#8211; months &#8211; of not touching one following a decision to stop forking out for dead trees; so an addict with periods of remission &#8211; a sporaddict, perhaps? I&#8217;d never spent time discussing a puzzle with others, and it wasn&#8217;t until I happened to chance upon this blogsite that I&#8217;d even heard of, let alone noticed, a nina. Now I frequently find them to be an enjoyable minor extra, an example being the recent Fawlty Towers reference. </p>
<p>My gripe is not with the construction, nor lack of presence, of a nina. It&#8217;s with the inclusion in the grid of several words which, as yer average solver, I couldn&#8217;t reasonably be expected to have ever come across in a normal lifetime. Or even two. Saggar? Biga? Tael? Yes, all solvable from the wordplay, but I find it unsatisfying to arrive at a string of letters which mean nothing to me, other than they fit the clue. Such words may be buried in Chambers, but if it was stated upfront that some solutions were only to be found in a Klingon dictionary, would that make them acceptable just because they could be derived from the wordplay?</p>
<p>I can accept that sometimes a setter has to use an overly obscure word, and its inclusion at least broadens one&#8217;s vocabulary, but several such words in the same grid points to something beyond necessity.</p>
<p>To repeat, I&#8217;m nothing more than yer average solver. But average solvers do represent the vast majority of the target audience.</p>
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		<title>By: ele</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/08/04/independent-7738mordred/#comment-166673</link>
		<dc:creator>ele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 21:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=32548#comment-166673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As one of the &#039;civilians&#039;, I agree with K&#039;sD comments. I didn&#039;t see the Nina but enjoyed attempting this puzzle - gave up with a few last words (FLORA, TAEL, EARDRUM) unsolved as time ran out - and it didn&#039;t seem that much more difficult or contrived than others. Ignorance is bliss presumably.  Keep up the good work setters and thanks to John for the blog - BTW I agree with his reading of the me/mi clue. For 29ac, I just assumed Angus was the definition of an area on the North Sea and the good university simply gives you the GU? But it did seem all wordplay with no definition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one of the &#8216;civilians&#8217;, I agree with K&#8217;sD comments. I didn&#8217;t see the Nina but enjoyed attempting this puzzle &#8211; gave up with a few last words (FLORA, TAEL, EARDRUM) unsolved as time ran out &#8211; and it didn&#8217;t seem that much more difficult or contrived than others. Ignorance is bliss presumably.  Keep up the good work setters and thanks to John for the blog &#8211; BTW I agree with his reading of the me/mi clue. For 29ac, I just assumed Angus was the definition of an area on the North Sea and the good university simply gives you the GU? But it did seem all wordplay with no definition.</p>
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