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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,450 &#8211; Philistine</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171806</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul (@45), don&#039;t get me wrong, I know exactly what you mean.
While Eileen @6 opened up the problem, especially your own post @36 makes things very clear. And it&#039;s not that very long ago that Anax gave me a &#039;reprimand&#039; for a similar thing.

As I find this thing about &#039;flexibility&#039; an interesting issue, I will give one more example.
And don&#039;t look at the nonsensical solutions below (nor at the number of letters in each solution).

Clue: I am behind a tree.
[let&#039;s say this tree is an &#039;ash&#039;]

ASHIAM: ok? [because the letters IAM are behind ASH]
ASHIM: ok, too? [because &quot;I&#039;m&quot; for &quot;I am&quot; is ok?]
ASHI: wrong [because the letter I *is* behind the ash tree]

But now I look at the clue again: I am behind a tree.
The imagery is very strong here - I see myself hiding behind that tree. And therefore I opt for ASH+I. 
Of course, I know, the surface reading (or that what it evokes) and the cryptic construction (based on doing something with symbols) are mixed up now. But see, my intuition tells me that this is reasonable this time because of the visual aspect of what happens in the clue - and so I want to be &#039;flexible&#039;.

Apparently, the Guardian&#039;s crossword editor was flexible too in this case, but I also want to add that I think &quot;I should be promoted&quot; would have been a much better option anyway (apart from the discussion above).
Why? Because moving the &quot;I&quot; up is a movement. And I think that an imperative-like &quot;I should be promoted&quot; or &quot;I must be promoted&quot; is a better way to indicate that movement. &quot;I am promoted&quot; feels like something static.
In everything I do intuition plays a big part and this is another example of that - whether one might tune into that or not.

Finally, your Sabre clue did confuse me.
Do you think it is right or not?
When you cut up the clue in separate pieces you&#039;ll get WEED/WITH/DEAD LEAVES RIPPED OFF. I do like the misdirecting use of &#039;leaves&#039;, but I am not convinced by the cryptic use of that word in the last part of the clue [I would have preferred &#039;leaving&#039; but, of course, that would wreck the clue].
So?
Maybe you are so kind to return this &#039;Ball of Confusion&#039;. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul (@45), don&#8217;t get me wrong, I know exactly what you mean.<br />
While Eileen @6 opened up the problem, especially your own post @36 makes things very clear. And it&#8217;s not that very long ago that Anax gave me a &#8216;reprimand&#8217; for a similar thing.</p>
<p>As I find this thing about &#8216;flexibility&#8217; an interesting issue, I will give one more example.<br />
And don&#8217;t look at the nonsensical solutions below (nor at the number of letters in each solution).</p>
<p>Clue: I am behind a tree.<br />
[let's say this tree is an 'ash']</p>
<p>ASHIAM: ok? [because the letters IAM are behind ASH]<br />
ASHIM: ok, too? [because "I'm" for "I am" is ok?]<br />
ASHI: wrong [because the letter I *is* behind the ash tree]</p>
<p>But now I look at the clue again: I am behind a tree.<br />
The imagery is very strong here &#8211; I see myself hiding behind that tree. And therefore I opt for ASH+I.<br />
Of course, I know, the surface reading (or that what it evokes) and the cryptic construction (based on doing something with symbols) are mixed up now. But see, my intuition tells me that this is reasonable this time because of the visual aspect of what happens in the clue &#8211; and so I want to be &#8216;flexible&#8217;.</p>
<p>Apparently, the Guardian&#8217;s crossword editor was flexible too in this case, but I also want to add that I think &#8220;I should be promoted&#8221; would have been a much better option anyway (apart from the discussion above).<br />
Why? Because moving the &#8220;I&#8221; up is a movement. And I think that an imperative-like &#8220;I should be promoted&#8221; or &#8220;I must be promoted&#8221; is a better way to indicate that movement. &#8220;I am promoted&#8221; feels like something static.<br />
In everything I do intuition plays a big part and this is another example of that &#8211; whether one might tune into that or not.</p>
<p>Finally, your Sabre clue did confuse me.<br />
Do you think it is right or not?<br />
When you cut up the clue in separate pieces you&#8217;ll get WEED/WITH/DEAD LEAVES RIPPED OFF. I do like the misdirecting use of &#8216;leaves&#8217;, but I am not convinced by the cryptic use of that word in the last part of the clue [I would have preferred 'leaving' but, of course, that would wreck the clue].<br />
So?<br />
Maybe you are so kind to return this &#8216;Ball of Confusion&#8217;. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Matt.vantage</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171756</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt.vantage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Really enjoyed the theme in this one, and on the whole found it solvable. The only new word for me was &#039;firmament&#039;.

Many thanks for the blog]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really enjoyed the theme in this one, and on the whole found it solvable. The only new word for me was &#8216;firmament&#8217;.</p>
<p>Many thanks for the blog</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171746</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Sil, but your flexible shield isn&#039;t enough to defend 6D - it just won&#039;t parse! Eileen, who clearly has an excellent grasp of the difference between cryptic (deep &amp; murky) grammar and what&#039;s going on up top (sunny surface), explains the fault very well. The thing is, preserving the distinction I&#039;ve already rattled on about seems to me to be what clue composition is all about: it&#039;s that very tension (excruciating) that makes it all worth doing in the first place. Here&#039;s one from Sabre, who is no fool on grammar, obviously:

Weed with dead leaves ripped off (7)

W/ (D)IDDLED]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sil, but your flexible shield isn&#8217;t enough to defend 6D &#8211; it just won&#8217;t parse! Eileen, who clearly has an excellent grasp of the difference between cryptic (deep &amp; murky) grammar and what&#8217;s going on up top (sunny surface), explains the fault very well. The thing is, preserving the distinction I&#8217;ve already rattled on about seems to me to be what clue composition is all about: it&#8217;s that very tension (excruciating) that makes it all worth doing in the first place. Here&#8217;s one from Sabre, who is no fool on grammar, obviously:</p>
<p>Weed with dead leaves ripped off (7)</p>
<p>W/ (D)IDDLED</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171732</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 07:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil @42 mentions that this was the third outing of Philistine. We thought it was his first, having not come across the name before, but we have been on holiday for a couple of weeks. Finished it – except for a couple in NE corner. Got the &#039;theme&#039; fairly early on, but neither the wife or I enjoyed this offering. If Philistine is going to become a regular he may well grow on us, but it had the appearance of someone trying too hard to be clever. I will suspend judgement for now and will search the archive for two we missed and see if we like them any better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil @42 mentions that this was the third outing of Philistine. We thought it was his first, having not come across the name before, but we have been on holiday for a couple of weeks. Finished it – except for a couple in NE corner. Got the &#8216;theme&#8217; fairly early on, but neither the wife or I enjoyed this offering. If Philistine is going to become a regular he may well grow on us, but it had the appearance of someone trying too hard to be clever. I will suspend judgement for now and will search the archive for two we missed and see if we like them any better.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Yap</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171721</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Yap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I can solve and parse every clue (even though wrongly as a homophone for those A for E clues but with the right answers) without referring to Chambers or Wikipedia, it is a stroll which means very much quicker than 30 minutes. While solving this one, I needed to refer to my dictionary only once to confirm FIRMAMENT as vault. Yes, that was a pleasant stroll.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I can solve and parse every clue (even though wrongly as a homophone for those A for E clues but with the right answers) without referring to Chambers or Wikipedia, it is a stroll which means very much quicker than 30 minutes. While solving this one, I needed to refer to my dictionary only once to confirm FIRMAMENT as vault. Yes, that was a pleasant stroll.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171718</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171718</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Philistine&#039;s third puzzle and a corker it was, we thought.
Splendid feature device which was especially nice in 5ac and 24ac (even if we weren&#039;t happy with just &#039;a pain&#039; for ANGINA).
That said, I would have left it there. And not have written two more clues with a similar device (14ac and 1ac, in which Philistine surely didn&#039;t mean anything else than replacing &#039;Michael&#039; by &#039;Co&#039;).

There were a lot of very well-written clues, like 5ac (with the &#039;wrap-up warm&#039; combination), the superb 13ac in which &#039;Former&#039; and &#039;minister&#039; should be unlinked, 3d,7 (with the neat definition (&#039;above&#039;)) and 2d.

Not sure though whether &#039;Feeling mortified?&#039; is a good definition for CHAGRIN, even if &#039;Feeling&#039; might be seen as noun.
And the STATIONA/ERY clue was, in our opinion, ambiguous because the first part was described insufficiently. Just &#039;needed to write&#039; for STATIONERY is a bit meagre. We had a feeling that there should have been something between &#039;3&#039; and &#039;needed&#039;: the word &#039;in&#039; or &#039;in + a noun&#039;, for example. It looked like it was edited out.

A lot of the discussion tonight is about 6d, which we thought was clever.
Paul B @41 makes it very clear: it is simply wrong.
Well, I would say, if you follow the crossword rules of Ximenes, yes.
But why should you?
For me, seeing &#039;I&#039; as the person that goes up (with the accompanying &#039;am&#039;) is quite defendable. I see me , the person that I am, going up, nót the letter.
Isn&#039;t it time to be a bit more flexible and less rigid, without, btw, handing oneself over to &quot;anything goes&quot;?

We enjoyed this crossword very much.
And unlike you, UY, we found it a bit more than just a pleasant stroll through the park.
He&#039;s a clever setter, Philistine, and we look forward to see more of him in the future.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philistine&#8217;s third puzzle and a corker it was, we thought.<br />
Splendid feature device which was especially nice in 5ac and 24ac (even if we weren&#8217;t happy with just &#8216;a pain&#8217; for ANGINA).<br />
That said, I would have left it there. And not have written two more clues with a similar device (14ac and 1ac, in which Philistine surely didn&#8217;t mean anything else than replacing &#8216;Michael&#8217; by &#8216;Co&#8217;).</p>
<p>There were a lot of very well-written clues, like 5ac (with the &#8216;wrap-up warm&#8217; combination), the superb 13ac in which &#8216;Former&#8217; and &#8216;minister&#8217; should be unlinked, 3d,7 (with the neat definition (&#8216;above&#8217;)) and 2d.</p>
<p>Not sure though whether &#8216;Feeling mortified?&#8217; is a good definition for CHAGRIN, even if &#8216;Feeling&#8217; might be seen as noun.<br />
And the STATIONA/ERY clue was, in our opinion, ambiguous because the first part was described insufficiently. Just &#8216;needed to write&#8217; for STATIONERY is a bit meagre. We had a feeling that there should have been something between &#8217;3&#8242; and &#8216;needed&#8217;: the word &#8216;in&#8217; or &#8216;in + a noun&#8217;, for example. It looked like it was edited out.</p>
<p>A lot of the discussion tonight is about 6d, which we thought was clever.<br />
Paul B @41 makes it very clear: it is simply wrong.<br />
Well, I would say, if you follow the crossword rules of Ximenes, yes.<br />
But why should you?<br />
For me, seeing &#8216;I&#8217; as the person that goes up (with the accompanying &#8216;am&#8217;) is quite defendable. I see me , the person that I am, going up, nót the letter.<br />
Isn&#8217;t it time to be a bit more flexible and less rigid, without, btw, handing oneself over to &#8220;anything goes&#8221;?</p>
<p>We enjoyed this crossword very much.<br />
And unlike you, UY, we found it a bit more than just a pleasant stroll through the park.<br />
He&#8217;s a clever setter, Philistine, and we look forward to see more of him in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171709</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I was trying to say, the clue at 6D is simply wrong: it&#039;s not a question of its being Ximenean or otherwise. And so there&#039;s every reason why we should expect discussion (as opposed to a &#039;to-do&#039;) about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I was trying to say, the clue at 6D is simply wrong: it&#8217;s not a question of its being Ximenean or otherwise. And so there&#8217;s every reason why we should expect discussion (as opposed to a &#8216;to-do&#8217;) about it.</p>
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		<title>By: john goldthorpe</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171705</link>
		<dc:creator>john goldthorpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A very enjoyable puzzle - and yes, more Philistine, please. I agree that 6d is not Ximenean but I&#039;m a bit surprised by all the to-do in view of what other eminent setters - you know who I mean - get away with.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very enjoyable puzzle &#8211; and yes, more Philistine, please. I agree that 6d is not Ximenean but I&#8217;m a bit surprised by all the to-do in view of what other eminent setters &#8211; you know who I mean &#8211; get away with.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan (not that one)</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171704</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan (not that one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;A pleasant stroll through the park ...&quot; ?????

Just how short a stroll was this UY? 5 mins? 30 mins? 

Personally I found it more of a hike. A very enjoyable hike but a hike nonetheless!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A pleasant stroll through the park &#8230;&#8221; ?????</p>
<p>Just how short a stroll was this UY? 5 mins? 30 mins? </p>
<p>Personally I found it more of a hike. A very enjoyable hike but a hike nonetheless!</p>
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		<title>By: caretman</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/10/11/guardian-25450-philistine/#comment-171702</link>
		<dc:creator>caretman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=35382#comment-171702</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, UY, for the blog.

Like others who have responded, my way in to the theme came from FLASH and FLESH.  Since I already had A . . . E for 3d, AFORE came to mind quickly, and there aren&#039;t a lot of common words with AFORE as the first five letters.  That point finally broke the puzzle open for me; I had only about half completed and was thinking this could be another time I couldn&#039;t quite get it.

Thanks, Philistine, for a fun puzzle.  I echo the request for more from this setter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, UY, for the blog.</p>
<p>Like others who have responded, my way in to the theme came from FLASH and FLESH.  Since I already had A . . . E for 3d, AFORE came to mind quickly, and there aren&#8217;t a lot of common words with AFORE as the first five letters.  That point finally broke the puzzle open for me; I had only about half completed and was thinking this could be another time I couldn&#8217;t quite get it.</p>
<p>Thanks, Philistine, for a fun puzzle.  I echo the request for more from this setter.</p>
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