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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,474 &#8211; Gordius</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Dave Dunford</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-174385</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Dunford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2011 09:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Solved this one in around half an hour, which is quick for me. Was vaguely aware of the Belstone Fox and the allusion to Liam Fox in that clue meant WERRITY was in mind when I came across 1d.

Personally I don&#039;t have a problem with 25ac: I think compilers feel entitled in &quot;hidden word&quot; clues to use as much surrounding verbiage (within reason) as is necessary for the sake of the surface (and Gordius was presumably going for a Disneyesque surface that wouldn&#039;t have worked without &quot;in film&quot;). If FAMOUS is in &quot;oF A MOUSe&quot; then it&#039;s also in &quot;oF A MOUSe in film&quot;; it&#039;s merely a question of how much verbiage goes unused. I&#039;ve seen much longer unclued fodder in this type of clue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solved this one in around half an hour, which is quick for me. Was vaguely aware of the Belstone Fox and the allusion to Liam Fox in that clue meant WERRITY was in mind when I came across 1d.</p>
<p>Personally I don&#8217;t have a problem with 25ac: I think compilers feel entitled in &#8220;hidden word&#8221; clues to use as much surrounding verbiage (within reason) as is necessary for the sake of the surface (and Gordius was presumably going for a Disneyesque surface that wouldn&#8217;t have worked without &#8220;in film&#8221;). If FAMOUS is in &#8220;oF A MOUSe&#8221; then it&#8217;s also in &#8220;oF A MOUSe in film&#8221;; it&#8217;s merely a question of how much verbiage goes unused. I&#8217;ve seen much longer unclued fodder in this type of clue.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Yap</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173948</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Yap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=36472#comment-173948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I stand by my solution to 24Down Black stuff sounds like old chancellor (4). The name of the black stuff (for cosmetic purposes) may well be KOHL but so is the name of the former German Chancellor. So, if the clue is supposed to be a double definition, why is &quot;sounds like&quot; inserted in the clue? To me, that signals a homophone clue; hence my COAL (black stuff for fuel purposes) Perhaps, Gordius has made a mistake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stand by my solution to 24Down Black stuff sounds like old chancellor (4). The name of the black stuff (for cosmetic purposes) may well be KOHL but so is the name of the former German Chancellor. So, if the clue is supposed to be a double definition, why is &#8220;sounds like&#8221; inserted in the clue? To me, that signals a homophone clue; hence my COAL (black stuff for fuel purposes) Perhaps, Gordius has made a mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: Huw Powell</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173919</link>
		<dc:creator>Huw Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=36472#comment-173919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A fun puzzle, though I never got close to the rather arcane 1d and 7a.  OK, I do have &quot;belstone&quot; written off to the side where I was trying to grind out the anagram, but it didn&#039;t look like a word to me.  Funny that Hugh S. was just writing about the dilemma editors face over setters using people&#039;s names in puzzles.

I also wrote in COAL - the clue, to me, points more that way, but is perfectly fair IMO.  DEAD HEAT easily forced the rewrite.  I also see no need to capitalize &quot;just in&quot; - surely setters are allowed to abuse capitalization, just like punctuation, to build a tricky clue?  I also liked that clue a lot.

I agree &quot;in film&quot; is redundant.  I wonder if it was part of a different way to build the clue that went undeleted by accident?  Like &quot;Part of a mouse in film&quot;?  

Thanks for the blog, UY, and a fun exercise, Gordius!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fun puzzle, though I never got close to the rather arcane 1d and 7a.  OK, I do have &#8220;belstone&#8221; written off to the side where I was trying to grind out the anagram, but it didn&#8217;t look like a word to me.  Funny that Hugh S. was just writing about the dilemma editors face over setters using people&#8217;s names in puzzles.</p>
<p>I also wrote in COAL &#8211; the clue, to me, points more that way, but is perfectly fair IMO.  DEAD HEAT easily forced the rewrite.  I also see no need to capitalize &#8220;just in&#8221; &#8211; surely setters are allowed to abuse capitalization, just like punctuation, to build a tricky clue?  I also liked that clue a lot.</p>
<p>I agree &#8220;in film&#8221; is redundant.  I wonder if it was part of a different way to build the clue that went undeleted by accident?  Like &#8220;Part of a mouse in film&#8221;?  </p>
<p>Thanks for the blog, UY, and a fun exercise, Gordius!</p>
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		<title>By: RCWhiting</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173846</link>
		<dc:creator>RCWhiting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=36472#comment-173846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks all
After writing in half the solutions I was feeling disappointed at another washout.
Boy,was I wrong.
This was a thoroughly good struggle and I failed to get either Werrity (I knew of him), atrial (which was new to me) and although I had belstone I didn&#039;t write it in since I have never head of it.
A very good puzzle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks all<br />
After writing in half the solutions I was feeling disappointed at another washout.<br />
Boy,was I wrong.<br />
This was a thoroughly good struggle and I failed to get either Werrity (I knew of him), atrial (which was new to me) and although I had belstone I didn&#8217;t write it in since I have never head of it.<br />
A very good puzzle.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173845</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Yes, Ian, I didn&#039;t notice this, but I think you&#039;re right.
Although.
One might say &#039;part this or that&#039; (without that damned :) little word &#039;of&#039;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Ian, I didn&#8217;t notice this, but I think you&#8217;re right.<br />
Although.<br />
One might say &#8216;part this or that&#8217; (without that damned <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  little word &#8216;of&#8217;).</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173843</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 00:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=36472#comment-173843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[25 across is sloppy, isn&#039;t it? Well-known = “famous” and then “part of” signals the hidden answer, but by then we only have “a mouse…” left (with “in film” having zero function in the clue). Am I missing something?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>25 across is sloppy, isn&#8217;t it? Well-known = “famous” and then “part of” signals the hidden answer, but by then we only have “a mouse…” left (with “in film” having zero function in the clue). Am I missing something?</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173840</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 22:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=36472#comment-173840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quite an enjoyable puzzle by Gordius and, as ever, a fine blog, so many thanks Uncle Yap for that.

Some obscure words indeed (WERRITTY, MISPRISION) but they were perfectly gettable from the construction.
In 4d we were very careless, entering DISCRETE instead of DISCREET [not a very good clue anyway, because &#039;its creed&#039; echoes quite clearly (though in the distance) &#039;discreet&#039;]. As a result we couldn&#039;t find ATRIAL (17ac) which was however in hindsight a nice clue.
We weren&#039;t taken the double crap in 3d, but thought just like others that KNOT (24ac) was excellent. 
That said, just like quite a few words in the SE, it fell rather late in place. 
Reason for that, of course I would say, the COAL/KOHL dilemma in 24d.

Gervase @8 says: &quot;I spotted the homophone at 24d immediately but read the clue the wrong way round and inserted COAL at first, which rather banjaxed the SE corner until I realised my mistake&quot;.
Your mistake?
We think the clue is clearly pointing in the direction of KOHL (although COAL might be justifiable).
One that tupu @14 liked was 21d (despite indeed being a chestnut), but we didn&#039;t like this one at all because this is another example of an ambiguous clue. I know it&#039;s a &quot;cross&quot;word, but when looking at it as a stand-alone clue, the solution could just as easily have been LAMINA.

A nice twist in TIMBERLAKE (23ac), original too. But it not fair to nót capitalise &quot;just&quot; (and also against the rules). It must have been possible to do something about that without ruining this great idea.

Finally, 8d (ENTREE) is a really nice clue, but I have my doubts about the use of that little word &quot;of&quot; here. I know, it&#039;s just a linking word, often used by other setters including Araucaria.
Gordius uses it here as: &quot;construction&quot; OF &quot;definition&quot;, while IMO this is less acceptable than: &quot;definition&quot; OF &quot;construction&quot; (which is perfectly all right).
Eventually I cannot be bothered too much because I know setters do it like that, but my occasional alter ego Dalibor made clear that he &#039;would keep far from it&#039;. :)

But overall, a well-spent little hour.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite an enjoyable puzzle by Gordius and, as ever, a fine blog, so many thanks Uncle Yap for that.</p>
<p>Some obscure words indeed (WERRITTY, MISPRISION) but they were perfectly gettable from the construction.<br />
In 4d we were very careless, entering DISCRETE instead of DISCREET [not a very good clue anyway, because 'its creed' echoes quite clearly (though in the distance) 'discreet']. As a result we couldn&#8217;t find ATRIAL (17ac) which was however in hindsight a nice clue.<br />
We weren&#8217;t taken the double crap in 3d, but thought just like others that KNOT (24ac) was excellent.<br />
That said, just like quite a few words in the SE, it fell rather late in place.<br />
Reason for that, of course I would say, the COAL/KOHL dilemma in 24d.</p>
<p>Gervase @8 says: &#8220;I spotted the homophone at 24d immediately but read the clue the wrong way round and inserted COAL at first, which rather banjaxed the SE corner until I realised my mistake&#8221;.<br />
Your mistake?<br />
We think the clue is clearly pointing in the direction of KOHL (although COAL might be justifiable).<br />
One that tupu @14 liked was 21d (despite indeed being a chestnut), but we didn&#8217;t like this one at all because this is another example of an ambiguous clue. I know it&#8217;s a &#8220;cross&#8221;word, but when looking at it as a stand-alone clue, the solution could just as easily have been LAMINA.</p>
<p>A nice twist in TIMBERLAKE (23ac), original too. But it not fair to nót capitalise &#8220;just&#8221; (and also against the rules). It must have been possible to do something about that without ruining this great idea.</p>
<p>Finally, 8d (ENTREE) is a really nice clue, but I have my doubts about the use of that little word &#8220;of&#8221; here. I know, it&#8217;s just a linking word, often used by other setters including Araucaria.<br />
Gordius uses it here as: &#8220;construction&#8221; OF &#8220;definition&#8221;, while IMO this is less acceptable than: &#8220;definition&#8221; OF &#8220;construction&#8221; (which is perfectly all right).<br />
Eventually I cannot be bothered too much because I know setters do it like that, but my occasional alter ego Dalibor made clear that he &#8216;would keep far from it&#8217;. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But overall, a well-spent little hour.</p>
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		<title>By: Plotinus</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173839</link>
		<dc:creator>Plotinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Oh dear. Thank you, Wolfie - and, as you say, a satisfying struggle!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear. Thank you, Wolfie &#8211; and, as you say, a satisfying struggle!</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfie</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173838</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Plotinus @20 - the answer is hidden in the clue: ..oF A MOUSe.. I think the film is a red herring.

I found this much harder than usual for Gordius, but very satisfying to solve.

Thank you for the blog UY]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plotinus @20 &#8211; the answer is hidden in the clue: ..oF A MOUSe.. I think the film is a red herring.</p>
<p>I found this much harder than usual for Gordius, but very satisfying to solve.</p>
<p>Thank you for the blog UY</p>
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		<title>By: Plotinus</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/11/08/guardian-25474-gordius/#comment-173836</link>
		<dc:creator>Plotinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Could someone please spell out for me how 25ac works?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could someone please spell out for me how 25ac works?</p>
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