Comments on: Guardian 25,489 – Bonxie

By: Sil van den Hoek

Sil van den Hoek — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:13:57 +0000

In correct cryptic grammar: yes, I fear.
The problem is that within a cryptic construction “five” should be seen as a (one) word/object that – in your example – goes to whatever.
Of course, it’s different within the surface.
Like it or not, for (precise) setters the cryptic grammar comes first.
And that is what Paul B was trying to say.

By: dunsscotus

dunsscotus — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:51:25 +0000

Hi Sil. So ‘Five go to Billycock Hill’ should have been ‘Five goes …’? (Apologies to Enid Blyton.)

By: Paul B

Paul B — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 03:49:02 +0000

Slight miscalculation in your conjugation there duns, but nice try.

By: Stella Heath

Stella Heath — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 02:19:11 +0000

Thanks RC. Over and out

By: RCWhiting

RCWhiting — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:53:20 +0000

MB = message board

By: Sil van den Hoek

Sil van den Hoek — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:35:54 +0000

dunsscotus, why should you make 4d so complicated:
“Only. 5, enter! Answer.”? [amusing it is, though ]
Why not “Only 5 entered answer”? That would have been perfectly all right.
So, I would say, if I were a setter and had the choice ….
In the discussion on “5″ being a plural, I still share Paul B’s point of view – the crux of this is similar to the recent “I follow” discussion, which is also not cryptogrammatically correct (even though fine within a surface).
Confusing isn’t it?

By: dunsscotus

dunsscotus — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:51:25 +0000

Hi tupu @ 27. Thanks for info, and I just love the resemblance theory.

With regard to the rumbling debate abour 4 down: Stella is surely right to point to the surface reading, when ’5′ is easily construed as a ‘they’, if I may so put it. Only at the point of entering the solution does ’5′ become ‘V’ and grammatical points are not really germane.

It also occurs to me that one problem with being pedantic about parts of speech (and grammar generally) is that there are just too many options. If one accpets, as I think we must, that punctuation is ‘transparent’, I could rewrite the clue as

Only. 5, enter! Answer.

The verb, being in the imperative mood, is now OK, and I hope to have caused some amusement. Are we really going to get all het up about a single ‘s’?

By: Stella Heath

Stella Heath — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:01:03 +0000

Thanks for solving the problem at 4d, Sil.

I’m pleased about that RCW, but what’s a(n) MB in this context?

By: RCWhiting

RCWhiting — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 22:35:54 +0000

Not to worry, Stella.I am an old man who is not easily disturbed – especially by a MB full of mythical people.

By: Sil van den Hoek

Sil van den Hoek — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 22:34:59 +0000

I have to confess that Bonxie is not really my favourite setter. His cleverness normally goes over my head, meaning: I usually need more than one session to complete the job. So, while I find his puzzles sometimes a bit of a slog, I really liked this one (my PinC agreed ) – there was just a somewhat lighter touch than in his recent (mainly Saturday) offerings.

So, nice puzzle.
But I fully agree with Paul B (@12) on the use of “enter” in 4d. It is wrong. ["entered" or "entering" could have done the trick]
Moreover, I have similar feelings (as PB) about the use of “takes” in 20d, although we enter ( ) a slightly greyer area here.

Clue of the Day? Well, that’s clear enough. But I (we) also liked the silliness of the surface in 18ac (TOASTMASTER).