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	<title>Comments on: Independent 7988/Punk</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: wingate</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194306</link>
		<dc:creator>wingate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 18:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194306</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m with Quixote on this one. For me, non-Ximenean clue-writing is a sign of laziness more than anything else (&quot;Never let fairness get in the way of a neat surface reading&quot;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Quixote on this one. For me, non-Ximenean clue-writing is a sign of laziness more than anything else (&#8220;Never let fairness get in the way of a neat surface reading&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: JollySwagman</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194294</link>
		<dc:creator>JollySwagman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 14:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@PB #21 I didn&#039;t coin anything -it was a question. You brought Erhart into the discussion and the extension is rather obvious.

Personally I would prefer the term ximhole to be reserved for the traps which over-zealous Ximenes acolytes fall into when wrongly interpreting their guru&#039;s thoughts - and when wrongly accusing setters of sloppiness when in fact they are simply working to a different paradigm. 

That avoids any smutty  misinterpretation. 

It seems to me that setters slagging the work of other setters (of which you are the worst culprit) on here must raise questions about their motives in doing that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PB #21 I didn&#8217;t coin anything -it was a question. You brought Erhart into the discussion and the extension is rather obvious.</p>
<p>Personally I would prefer the term ximhole to be reserved for the traps which over-zealous Ximenes acolytes fall into when wrongly interpreting their guru&#8217;s thoughts &#8211; and when wrongly accusing setters of sloppiness when in fact they are simply working to a different paradigm. </p>
<p>That avoids any smutty  misinterpretation. </p>
<p>It seems to me that setters slagging the work of other setters (of which you are the worst culprit) on here must raise questions about their motives in doing that.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194289</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 13:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re 19, I think Quixote is, quite rightly, drawing attention not to &#039;estholes&#039;, but your own rather distasteful coining.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 19, I think Quixote is, quite rightly, drawing attention not to &#8216;estholes&#8217;, but your own rather distasteful coining.</p>
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		<title>By: Bertandjoyce</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194242</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertandjoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 07:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An enjoyable themed puzzle which we have only just finished - out all day yesterday. 
Whilst we respect Quixote&#039;s views (not forgetting his excellent puzzles) we think any device such as splitting words or combining words and playing with punctuation is acceptable. It keeps the grey matter ticking over and it&#039;s good fun working out how you&#039;ve been deceived, usually producing a smile or a groan! All part of the enjoyment of Indy puzzles.
Thanks Punk and John.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An enjoyable themed puzzle which we have only just finished &#8211; out all day yesterday.<br />
Whilst we respect Quixote&#8217;s views (not forgetting his excellent puzzles) we think any device such as splitting words or combining words and playing with punctuation is acceptable. It keeps the grey matter ticking over and it&#8217;s good fun working out how you&#8217;ve been deceived, usually producing a smile or a groan! All part of the enjoyment of Indy puzzles.<br />
Thanks Punk and John.</p>
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		<title>By: JollySwagman</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194237</link>
		<dc:creator>JollySwagman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 06:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194237</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It might have started out as a gibe by others but &quot;esthole&quot; is what they called themselves - so at least in their case their sense of humour must have survived the brainwashing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might have started out as a gibe by others but &#8220;esthole&#8221; is what they called themselves &#8211; so at least in their case their sense of humour must have survived the brainwashing.</p>
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		<title>By: Quixote etc</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194228</link>
		<dc:creator>Quixote etc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 05:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see that I am not among friends here. Just call people names, and devise a swearword starting with X, that&#039;s the idea, eh? Carry on talking among yourselves!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that I am not among friends here. Just call people names, and devise a swearword starting with X, that&#8217;s the idea, eh? Carry on talking among yourselves!</p>
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		<title>By: JollySwagman</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194218</link>
		<dc:creator>JollySwagman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 01:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Flashling #14 - &quot;indeed&quot; was so common once that you would write the DE and ED in straight away and go looking for the middle bit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Flashling #14 &#8211; &#8220;indeed&#8221; was so common once that you would write the DE and ED in straight away and go looking for the middle bit.</p>
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		<title>By: JollySwagman</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194217</link>
		<dc:creator>JollySwagman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 00:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@PB #12 - Erhard eh? He made a good few quid out of EST (Erhard seminars training) and then followed the great American tradition of &quot;let&#039;s all sue each other&quot; - the EST acolytes were dubbed &quot;estholes&quot;. Is it OK to refer to the acolytes of Ximenes as &quot;ximholes&quot;?

Most of the devices described by Ximenes as &quot;unfair to the solver&quot; are in fact quite fair and logical as long as you know they are possibilities. Actually Ximenes did make some sort of distinction between punctuation which intentionally deceives and that which happens to deceive but is naturally there anyway; a distinction which I can&#039;t be bothered with. 

Of course Ximenes and his ilk would have writen that as &quot;a distinction with which I can’t be bothered&quot; despite Fowler, Gowers, Churchill, many others having pointed out that there is actually no &quot;rule&quot; of English grammar against it - other than a schoolmasterly invention.

Please setters - deceive me as you will with punctuation, word-splitting, what you will. I learnt at my father&#039;s knee (pre-Ximenes) rule #1 for solvers: ignore all punctuation, capitalisation and word-splitting (or lack thereof) - it may be there to deceive - that&#039;s the whole idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PB #12 &#8211; Erhard eh? He made a good few quid out of EST (Erhard seminars training) and then followed the great American tradition of &#8220;let&#8217;s all sue each other&#8221; &#8211; the EST acolytes were dubbed &#8220;estholes&#8221;. Is it OK to refer to the acolytes of Ximenes as &#8220;ximholes&#8221;?</p>
<p>Most of the devices described by Ximenes as &#8220;unfair to the solver&#8221; are in fact quite fair and logical as long as you know they are possibilities. Actually Ximenes did make some sort of distinction between punctuation which intentionally deceives and that which happens to deceive but is naturally there anyway; a distinction which I can&#8217;t be bothered with. </p>
<p>Of course Ximenes and his ilk would have writen that as &#8220;a distinction with which I can’t be bothered&#8221; despite Fowler, Gowers, Churchill, many others having pointed out that there is actually no &#8220;rule&#8221; of English grammar against it &#8211; other than a schoolmasterly invention.</p>
<p>Please setters &#8211; deceive me as you will with punctuation, word-splitting, what you will. I learnt at my father&#8217;s knee (pre-Ximenes) rule #1 for solvers: ignore all punctuation, capitalisation and word-splitting (or lack thereof) &#8211; it may be there to deceive &#8211; that&#8217;s the whole idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Dormouse</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194207</link>
		<dc:creator>Dormouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 21:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found this hard.  10/18 was obvious from the preamble in the paper and the word division, but it took me ages to parse the actual clue.  12/11 was a phrase I didn&#039;t know, but from crossing letters I could work out how it started and guess all but the the last word, which google provided.  (I was sure the last word started with a &#039;b&#039; and wondered if it was &quot;You couldn&#039;t run a bean&quot;, which has a nice sound to it.)  But a lot of the clues I could guess the answer without knowing why.  I&#039;d never heard of &quot;oloroso&quot; and had to do a word search for that and also for 24/22, where &quot;back marker&quot; was the only answer that fit.  That was the last in, and about five minutes later, I finally realised why it was the answer and groaned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this hard.  10/18 was obvious from the preamble in the paper and the word division, but it took me ages to parse the actual clue.  12/11 was a phrase I didn&#8217;t know, but from crossing letters I could work out how it started and guess all but the the last word, which google provided.  (I was sure the last word started with a &#8216;b&#8217; and wondered if it was &#8220;You couldn&#8217;t run a bean&#8221;, which has a nice sound to it.)  But a lot of the clues I could guess the answer without knowing why.  I&#8217;d never heard of &#8220;oloroso&#8221; and had to do a word search for that and also for 24/22, where &#8220;back marker&#8221; was the only answer that fit.  That was the last in, and about five minutes later, I finally realised why it was the answer and groaned.</p>
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		<title>By: flashling</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/05/22/independent-7988punk/#comment-194204</link>
		<dc:creator>flashling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 21:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=44492#comment-194204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doesn&#039;t the Indy always aim for new and misleading devices? Inform, intent detailed seem fine to me - Thanks John. A thought flashed through my mind that no-one had mentioned on line completion messages recently whilst I did dead tree and lo and behold there was one apparently.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t the Indy always aim for new and misleading devices? Inform, intent detailed seem fine to me &#8211; Thanks John. A thought flashed through my mind that no-one had mentioned on line completion messages recently whilst I did dead tree and lo and behold there was one apparently.</p>
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