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	<title>Comments on: Guardian Cryptic N° 25,703 by Boatman</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 15:42:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: brucew_aus</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-202357</link>
		<dc:creator>brucew_aus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-202357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Boatman and PeterO

What a fantastic puzzle - started it when it came out and only found it half done today.  This was certainly tough - for me anyhow!

Loved the clever clue devices, the interwoven faith theme and a couple of really brain twisters - in both the solve and the parse.  Had gaps in three quadrants towards the end - SAINT in the NE until the brilliant INNER = Heart dropped, DOCTRINE, SITCOM and SECTION in the NW - they were hard work and last of all STAMP and I AM GOD in the SW.

Very satisfied to get it finished at last.

? is a gem !!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Boatman and PeterO</p>
<p>What a fantastic puzzle &#8211; started it when it came out and only found it half done today.  This was certainly tough &#8211; for me anyhow!</p>
<p>Loved the clever clue devices, the interwoven faith theme and a couple of really brain twisters &#8211; in both the solve and the parse.  Had gaps in three quadrants towards the end &#8211; SAINT in the NE until the brilliant INNER = Heart dropped, DOCTRINE, SITCOM and SECTION in the NW &#8211; they were hard work and last of all STAMP and I AM GOD in the SW.</p>
<p>Very satisfied to get it finished at last.</p>
<p>? is a gem !!</p>
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		<title>By: Boatman</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199697</link>
		<dc:creator>Boatman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 08:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil - Your quote on my website may prove immortal, though there&#039;s an outrageous comment in the Grauniad&#039;s site, which may have to join it!

For those who don&#039;t know it, I have a particular respect for Sil, as he was the first 225 solver to get the point of what I&#039;m trying to achieve, so it&#039;s always a pleasure to read his comments.

Thanks to all as ever for stimulating comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil &#8211; Your quote on my website may prove immortal, though there&#8217;s an outrageous comment in the Grauniad&#8217;s site, which may have to join it!</p>
<p>For those who don&#8217;t know it, I have a particular respect for Sil, as he was the first 225 solver to get the point of what I&#8217;m trying to achieve, so it&#8217;s always a pleasure to read his comments.</p>
<p>Thanks to all as ever for stimulating comments.</p>
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		<title>By: johnmcc</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199695</link>
		<dc:creator>johnmcc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 08:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First Graun x-word I&#039;ve not completed in months. Too many guessers for my taste. Don&#039;t like M for man at all. But some great clues in there - love 3dn once it was explained!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First Graun x-word I&#8217;ve not completed in months. Too many guessers for my taste. Don&#8217;t like M for man at all. But some great clues in there &#8211; love 3dn once it was explained!</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199677</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 23:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It has been quite a while since we’ve seen a Boatman. The last one appeared on May 1st of this year and I really wondered whether someone put him in the waiting room in favour of new setters like Qaos, Picaroon and Philistine.
So, a warm welcome back to Boatman who, according to his website (http://www.boatmancryptics.co.uk , worth taking a look), still seems to think that he’s the B of my ABC of Setters …. :)

Clever stuff all around, typical for this setter.
Of course, the Man Himself&#039;s there (I mean Boatman, not ...) in 8ac and 2d, but there are also these recurring characteriscs like using ‘article of faith’ or – as Boatman explained @25 – ‘faith leader’ in different clues in different ways.

In 10ac (the infamous SAINT), for me, the combined cleverness and elegance was far more important than the no/not discussion (which it certainly was not for my PinC!).
Also very good: the Spoonerism at 27ac (even though ‘Spooner’ himself seems to be a bit naked in the surface of the clue) and the fantastic hidden solution of 22d (SIESTA) in which the use of “ex” gave that extra dimension while “the rest” within the surface was different from its meaning as the definition. Clever, clever.

But there is room for some criticism too.
Like Gervase, I am not convinced that “Onset of” (in 23d) is suitable to indicate multiple starting letters (unlike ‘initially’, for example) but this niggle is saved by the natural surface.
I also do not like the Nimrodian (well, that’s how I feel it) constructional twists in 17ac and 19d very much.
The clue of 17ac (SKITTER) suggests that “skip” goes around K, but no, it’s the “model” that goes around K. I know, setters do it, but I still cannot get used to this interpretation of the order of things. And certainly not here, where the quotation marks and the dash are in the way. I know, punctuation doesn’t matter, but I would feel reluctant to write a clue like this.
The same applies to 19d in which “at the heart of faith” leads to “AT inside CREED”. For me, there’s something missing between “at” and “the” (like “at” is “at””the heart of faith”). Of course, it can be justified, but it feels very inelegant to me.

@23 kenj complains about the use of single letters.
I wondered where M = Man came from - it’s not in the dictionaries I have.
Does Boatman use it because IoM = Isle of Man?
If so, then that’s rather dubious.
In 14ac (EQUERRY) there’s another example: R = Royal.
It is not in my dictionaries as a stand-alone abbreviation, but only in combination with something else. Although, I must admit, I have less problems with R than with M.
But generally speaking, I am not sure whether this is allowed in crosswords.
But I am happy to learn that what I say is wrong.

Even though one might think that I am negative about this puzzle now, that’s not the case.
It was a really satisfying solve.
Boatman has an unique style and it was good to see him at the front again.

So, many thanks to setter and to PeterO for the excellent blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has been quite a while since we’ve seen a Boatman. The last one appeared on May 1st of this year and I really wondered whether someone put him in the waiting room in favour of new setters like Qaos, Picaroon and Philistine.<br />
So, a warm welcome back to Boatman who, according to his website (<a href="http://www.boatmancryptics.co.uk" rel="nofollow">http://www.boatmancryptics.co.uk</a> , worth taking a look), still seems to think that he’s the B of my ABC of Setters …. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Clever stuff all around, typical for this setter.<br />
Of course, the Man Himself&#8217;s there (I mean Boatman, not &#8230;) in 8ac and 2d, but there are also these recurring characteriscs like using ‘article of faith’ or – as Boatman explained @25 – ‘faith leader’ in different clues in different ways.</p>
<p>In 10ac (the infamous SAINT), for me, the combined cleverness and elegance was far more important than the no/not discussion (which it certainly was not for my PinC!).<br />
Also very good: the Spoonerism at 27ac (even though ‘Spooner’ himself seems to be a bit naked in the surface of the clue) and the fantastic hidden solution of 22d (SIESTA) in which the use of “ex” gave that extra dimension while “the rest” within the surface was different from its meaning as the definition. Clever, clever.</p>
<p>But there is room for some criticism too.<br />
Like Gervase, I am not convinced that “Onset of” (in 23d) is suitable to indicate multiple starting letters (unlike ‘initially’, for example) but this niggle is saved by the natural surface.<br />
I also do not like the Nimrodian (well, that’s how I feel it) constructional twists in 17ac and 19d very much.<br />
The clue of 17ac (SKITTER) suggests that “skip” goes around K, but no, it’s the “model” that goes around K. I know, setters do it, but I still cannot get used to this interpretation of the order of things. And certainly not here, where the quotation marks and the dash are in the way. I know, punctuation doesn’t matter, but I would feel reluctant to write a clue like this.<br />
The same applies to 19d in which “at the heart of faith” leads to “AT inside CREED”. For me, there’s something missing between “at” and “the” (like “at” is “at””the heart of faith”). Of course, it can be justified, but it feels very inelegant to me.</p>
<p>@23 kenj complains about the use of single letters.<br />
I wondered where M = Man came from &#8211; it’s not in the dictionaries I have.<br />
Does Boatman use it because IoM = Isle of Man?<br />
If so, then that’s rather dubious.<br />
In 14ac (EQUERRY) there’s another example: R = Royal.<br />
It is not in my dictionaries as a stand-alone abbreviation, but only in combination with something else. Although, I must admit, I have less problems with R than with M.<br />
But generally speaking, I am not sure whether this is allowed in crosswords.<br />
But I am happy to learn that what I say is wrong.</p>
<p>Even though one might think that I am negative about this puzzle now, that’s not the case.<br />
It was a really satisfying solve.<br />
Boatman has an unique style and it was good to see him at the front again.</p>
<p>So, many thanks to setter and to PeterO for the excellent blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin P</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199675</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Thomas99: that was precisely my blind spot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Thomas99: that was precisely my blind spot.</p>
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		<title>By: Giovanna</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199673</link>
		<dc:creator>Giovanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Boatman for something different and PeterO for a great blog.

I  came to this late this evening but found it fascinating. Agree with RCW - you don&#039;t need a Nina - just faith to carry on!!

Sleep well one and all!

Giovanna x]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Boatman for something different and PeterO for a great blog.</p>
<p>I  came to this late this evening but found it fascinating. Agree with RCW &#8211; you don&#8217;t need a Nina &#8211; just faith to carry on!!</p>
<p>Sleep well one and all!</p>
<p>Giovanna x</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199669</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not entirely clear on the ins and outs of the subjunctive mood, but that&#039;s what this feels like to me. Whatever, the grammar is perfect on the surface, and for the cryptic reading too: nice to see the possessive used for the first letter indication in this one.

As to 99&#039;s meaning, it&#039;s this influential fool, you see, who persuades some cult leader or other to hold onto his (and not her) recent dupes&#039; cash. Personally, I&#039;ve never known a Goddist of any sort need any persuasion in grabbing someone&#039;s cash. Or jewels. As it were.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not entirely clear on the ins and outs of the subjunctive mood, but that&#8217;s what this feels like to me. Whatever, the grammar is perfect on the surface, and for the cryptic reading too: nice to see the possessive used for the first letter indication in this one.</p>
<p>As to 99&#8242;s meaning, it&#8217;s this influential fool, you see, who persuades some cult leader or other to hold onto his (and not her) recent dupes&#8217; cash. Personally, I&#8217;ve never known a Goddist of any sort need any persuasion in grabbing someone&#8217;s cash. Or jewels. As it were.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas99</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199667</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Martin P -
Re 26a - Are you resisting &quot;has&quot; in the sense of &quot;makes [someone do something]&quot;? &quot;Fool has faith leader hold...&quot; in the surface means &quot;Fool makes faith leader hold...&quot; It&#039;s perfectly good English, if a bit rarer than it was. Compare &quot;He had me sit down...&quot; I just googled that phrase and a lot of bits of what looks like recently written cheap fiction came up. One of them, randomly chosen (from &quot;Castle of Spirits&quot;): &quot;He had me sit down in his office and asked me if I believed in ghosts. I told him that I did...&quot; Sounds rubbish but I think it shows the usage is still around. And it&#039;s a good meaningful surface - about a perhaps not entirely virtuous faith leader who&#039;s being trusted with a lot of cash.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin P -<br />
Re 26a &#8211; Are you resisting &#8220;has&#8221; in the sense of &#8220;makes [someone do something]&#8220;? &#8220;Fool has faith leader hold&#8230;&#8221; in the surface means &#8220;Fool makes faith leader hold&#8230;&#8221; It&#8217;s perfectly good English, if a bit rarer than it was. Compare &#8220;He had me sit down&#8230;&#8221; I just googled that phrase and a lot of bits of what looks like recently written cheap fiction came up. One of them, randomly chosen (from &#8220;Castle of Spirits&#8221;): &#8220;He had me sit down in his office and asked me if I believed in ghosts. I told him that I did&#8230;&#8221; Sounds rubbish but I think it shows the usage is still around. And it&#8217;s a good meaningful surface &#8211; about a perhaps not entirely virtuous faith leader who&#8217;s being trusted with a lot of cash.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin P</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199666</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I abhor everything to do with religion, especially the Blair-milked euphemism &quot;faith&quot; for it.

However, once I got stuck in I found the devices so fascinating as to make me forget the raw material.

I still can&#039;t make the clue for 26a read as prose though!

Otherwise brilliant :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I abhor everything to do with religion, especially the Blair-milked euphemism &#8220;faith&#8221; for it.</p>
<p>However, once I got stuck in I found the devices so fascinating as to make me forget the raw material.</p>
<p>I still can&#8217;t make the clue for 26a read as prose though!</p>
<p>Otherwise brilliant <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: nametab</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/08/01/guardian-cryptic-n-25703-by-boatman/#comment-199665</link>
		<dc:creator>nametab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=47202#comment-199665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@33:  a glitch: The last sentence should have read:  I think 12a would parse if &#039;before that?&#039; were omitted (which somehow it was @33).

Satan @32: It&#039;s a crossword blog, not a soapbox.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@33:  a glitch: The last sentence should have read:  I think 12a would parse if &#8216;before that?&#8217; were omitted (which somehow it was @33).</p>
<p>Satan @32: It&#8217;s a crossword blog, not a soapbox.</p>
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