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	<title>Comments on: Guardian Cryptic N° 25,799 by Orlando</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: rhotician</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-216163</link>
		<dc:creator>rhotician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2012 20:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-216163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whatever.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-216079</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-216079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thomas99,  I do see why people like Rowland and Paul B object against “Tory leader” or “Abba finish”, say.

They consider crossword clues to be a set of building stones in which the surface is of no importance, perhaps even non-existent. 
For them “Tory leader” does not mean “leader of Tories”, but the leader (first letter) of the building stone “Tory” (which could have been any other word starting with a T).  While I am generally on the same wavelength (meaning: cryptic grammar comes first and the surface is an (albeit substantial) bonus), they go one step further and say that it eventually should be “Tory’s leader”. The leader of the building stone called “Tory”.  See what I mean?
They would prefer to see “Abba’s finish” instead of “Abba finish” (which wouldn’t make sense within the surface – bad luck then)

I belong to those who find “Tory leader” and “Abba finish” acceptable, even within the limits of cryptic grammar. And I am not alone, given the fact that a lot of renowned crossword setters are doing it, day in day out.

Therefore, I am also happy with “photo finish” for O – even if I am not sure whether I would use it myself. Although I am not against it, I am also someone who would like to avoid it if possible. Ambiguous, isn’t it?
However, I am not happy with people who accept “photo finish” on the basis of its surface, ie like they accept “Tory leader” because of being a “leader of Tories”, as in real life it does not mean the finish of a photo.

BTW, within the context of the above, the fact that I did not like the Abba clue is completely irrelevant. What is my personal taste should not be confused with cryptic correctness.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas99,  I do see why people like Rowland and Paul B object against “Tory leader” or “Abba finish”, say.</p>
<p>They consider crossword clues to be a set of building stones in which the surface is of no importance, perhaps even non-existent.<br />
For them “Tory leader” does not mean “leader of Tories”, but the leader (first letter) of the building stone “Tory” (which could have been any other word starting with a T).  While I am generally on the same wavelength (meaning: cryptic grammar comes first and the surface is an (albeit substantial) bonus), they go one step further and say that it eventually should be “Tory’s leader”. The leader of the building stone called “Tory”.  See what I mean?<br />
They would prefer to see “Abba’s finish” instead of “Abba finish” (which wouldn’t make sense within the surface – bad luck then)</p>
<p>I belong to those who find “Tory leader” and “Abba finish” acceptable, even within the limits of cryptic grammar. And I am not alone, given the fact that a lot of renowned crossword setters are doing it, day in day out.</p>
<p>Therefore, I am also happy with “photo finish” for O – even if I am not sure whether I would use it myself. Although I am not against it, I am also someone who would like to avoid it if possible. Ambiguous, isn’t it?<br />
However, I am not happy with people who accept “photo finish” on the basis of its surface, ie like they accept “Tory leader” because of being a “leader of Tories”, as in real life it does not mean the finish of a photo.</p>
<p>BTW, within the context of the above, the fact that I did not like the Abba clue is completely irrelevant. What is my personal taste should not be confused with cryptic correctness.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas99</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-216011</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-216011</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil van den Hoek @31 - Glad you agreed about that device. In fact rowland @19 has objected to &quot;Tory leader&quot; for T - and he was one of the 2 objectors to Alchemi - but once again has not explained why. Ironically, he seemed to think Alchemi&#039;s surface was good (as I did in fact) and that this might somehow be what made the clue bad: &quot;Youm have to be careful how you think about them in grammar, esp. when they [surfaces] sound really good!&quot; (and yes, his own grammar is rather creative here). 

I think it&#039;s now safe to assume nobody&#039;s ever going to explain what the grounds for the objection are. I did have a theory that Latinists might not like it because constructions that turn nouns into adjectives by juxtaposition are probably, like half of our language, Germanic in origin - e.g. Germans, like us, can say &quot;Hausfrau&quot; etc., where the French would have to say &quot;Femme DE maison&quot; etc. (not actually what they say for housewife but you get the picture).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil van den Hoek @31 &#8211; Glad you agreed about that device. In fact rowland @19 has objected to &#8220;Tory leader&#8221; for T &#8211; and he was one of the 2 objectors to Alchemi &#8211; but once again has not explained why. Ironically, he seemed to think Alchemi&#8217;s surface was good (as I did in fact) and that this might somehow be what made the clue bad: &#8220;Youm have to be careful how you think about them in grammar, esp. when they [surfaces] sound really good!&#8221; (and yes, his own grammar is rather creative here). </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s now safe to assume nobody&#8217;s ever going to explain what the grounds for the objection are. I did have a theory that Latinists might not like it because constructions that turn nouns into adjectives by juxtaposition are probably, like half of our language, Germanic in origin &#8211; e.g. Germans, like us, can say &#8220;Hausfrau&#8221; etc., where the French would have to say &#8220;Femme DE maison&#8221; etc. (not actually what they say for housewife but you get the picture).</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215961</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thomas 99 @another9, you&#039;re right about &#039;XXX leader&#039;.
Alchemi was criticised for it, but not by me and certainly not for that reason.
Paul used it recently, and he&#039;s not the only one of the top setters.
As I said &#039;not for that reason&#039;.
For me, &#039;Abba finish&#039; was poor because of its surface.
But there we are.
Surface vs cryptic grammar.
While I didn&#039;t like it because of the surface, others objected because of the cryptic grammar.
But then there was someone who tried to justify it by saying &quot;it&#039;s just like &#039;photo finish&#039; for O&quot;.
Unlike some others in some towers, I have no problem with &#039;photo finish&#039; for O from a cryptic PoV, but I have when one uses the surface as an argument. &#039;Photo finish&#039; is not the finish of a photo, but the photo of a finish.

Yes, Thomas99, in my opinion Alchemi shouldn&#039;t have been nailed down for this from a cryptic PoV.
But I didn&#039;t like the clue because of its poor surface.
In an otherwise excellent crossword!

Excellent?
This one was too, with the NE clearly the most tricky.
Many thanks Peter O.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas 99 @another9, you&#8217;re right about &#8216;XXX leader&#8217;.<br />
Alchemi was criticised for it, but not by me and certainly not for that reason.<br />
Paul used it recently, and he&#8217;s not the only one of the top setters.<br />
As I said &#8216;not for that reason&#8217;.<br />
For me, &#8216;Abba finish&#8217; was poor because of its surface.<br />
But there we are.<br />
Surface vs cryptic grammar.<br />
While I didn&#8217;t like it because of the surface, others objected because of the cryptic grammar.<br />
But then there was someone who tried to justify it by saying &#8220;it&#8217;s just like &#8216;photo finish&#8217; for O&#8221;.<br />
Unlike some others in some towers, I have no problem with &#8216;photo finish&#8217; for O from a cryptic PoV, but I have when one uses the surface as an argument. &#8216;Photo finish&#8217; is not the finish of a photo, but the photo of a finish.</p>
<p>Yes, Thomas99, in my opinion Alchemi shouldn&#8217;t have been nailed down for this from a cryptic PoV.<br />
But I didn&#8217;t like the clue because of its poor surface.<br />
In an otherwise excellent crossword!</p>
<p>Excellent?<br />
This one was too, with the NE clearly the most tricky.<br />
Many thanks Peter O.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215959</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215959</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope you&#039;re not being rude about Guardian Grid 30!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you&#8217;re not being rude about Guardian Grid 30!</p>
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		<title>By: rrc</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215955</link>
		<dc:creator>rrc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 20:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215955</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am afraid I got bored doing this anIt and eventually gave up  it seemed to lack the bite of a few recent crosswords , i wasnt struck on the grid,  and I found some of glues were difficult to understand. It is rare that I get to this stage but I did today]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am afraid I got bored doing this anIt and eventually gave up  it seemed to lack the bite of a few recent crosswords , i wasnt struck on the grid,  and I found some of glues were difficult to understand. It is rare that I get to this stage but I did today</p>
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		<title>By: tupu</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215949</link>
		<dc:creator>tupu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 18:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215949</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks PeterO and orlando

An excellent puzzle. I ticked 12a, 14a, 24a and d, 5d, and 18d but could easily add more.

I had to check goatsucker and certes to confirm vague memories of both.

4d had to be &#039;passable&#039; but I missed the Nancy idea despite having come across it before. :) I eventually googled Nancy Pa, and there she was of course, the latest thing in Nigerian music! I have no self esteem re my knowledge/ignorance of modern music fashion, and assumed she must be better known than I realised. 

Thanks for the parsing of that one and also 4d and the final O in 23 which I forgot to reckon with.

I recently sparred a little with RCW re ambiguous reversals. As a firm believer in the importance of crossing letters I have nothing much against these clues. But I&#039;m not convinced, a la RCW, that their ambiguity actually enhances them, though it is an interesting idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks PeterO and orlando</p>
<p>An excellent puzzle. I ticked 12a, 14a, 24a and d, 5d, and 18d but could easily add more.</p>
<p>I had to check goatsucker and certes to confirm vague memories of both.</p>
<p>4d had to be &#8216;passable&#8217; but I missed the Nancy idea despite having come across it before. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I eventually googled Nancy Pa, and there she was of course, the latest thing in Nigerian music! I have no self esteem re my knowledge/ignorance of modern music fashion, and assumed she must be better known than I realised. </p>
<p>Thanks for the parsing of that one and also 4d and the final O in 23 which I forgot to reckon with.</p>
<p>I recently sparred a little with RCW re ambiguous reversals. As a firm believer in the importance of crossing letters I have nothing much against these clues. But I&#8217;m not convinced, a la RCW, that their ambiguity actually enhances them, though it is an interesting idea.</p>
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		<title>By: RCWhiting</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215944</link>
		<dc:creator>RCWhiting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think some posters are seriously underestimating the importance of crossing letters in the solution of cryptic crosswords. This goes much further than deciding between homophones or reversals.
Time after time I will have (with some but not entire certainty) solved part of a clue. Maybe one of several words but more often a prefix or suffix. Say I am fairly sure that a solution ends in -ing, that &#039;g&#039; might well enableme to solve the crossing clue. These little wrinkles are what makes cryptics so much fun.
This also reinforces my view that no puzzle should be considered or judged by individual clues but as a whole.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think some posters are seriously underestimating the importance of crossing letters in the solution of cryptic crosswords. This goes much further than deciding between homophones or reversals.<br />
Time after time I will have (with some but not entire certainty) solved part of a clue. Maybe one of several words but more often a prefix or suffix. Say I am fairly sure that a solution ends in -ing, that &#8216;g&#8217; might well enableme to solve the crossing clue. These little wrinkles are what makes cryptics so much fun.<br />
This also reinforces my view that no puzzle should be considered or judged by individual clues but as a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215941</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Rowly.
I had wolf for 10A on a first run through the clues, before finding that it didn&#039;t work. If a clue leads to two equally sound solutions then it&#039;s not a good clue. Of course it&#039;s possible to cope with the ambiguity using crossing letters, and some might say that&#039;s why we have crossing letters, but for me it&#039;s too much like a quick crossword.
I just think that it&#039;s a pity that a bit of inelegance spoils an otherwise fine puzzle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Rowly.<br />
I had wolf for 10A on a first run through the clues, before finding that it didn&#8217;t work. If a clue leads to two equally sound solutions then it&#8217;s not a good clue. Of course it&#8217;s possible to cope with the ambiguity using crossing letters, and some might say that&#8217;s why we have crossing letters, but for me it&#8217;s too much like a quick crossword.<br />
I just think that it&#8217;s a pity that a bit of inelegance spoils an otherwise fine puzzle.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitz</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/11/21/guardian-cryptic-n-25799-by-orlando/#comment-215940</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fifteensquared.net/?p=51656#comment-215940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Rowly,

Thanks for responding, and as I have said before: each to his or her own!  Wouldn&#039;t the world be a boring place if we all liked the same things?  Just one final thought from me on the subject: perhaps &quot;clumsy&quot; is an apt description if the ambiguity is unintentional, but what if the setter has constructed the clue that way on purpose?  They could be clearly indicating that the answer is one of two things, making it up to you to sort out which is required by filling in some crossing letters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rowly,</p>
<p>Thanks for responding, and as I have said before: each to his or her own!  Wouldn&#8217;t the world be a boring place if we all liked the same things?  Just one final thought from me on the subject: perhaps &#8220;clumsy&#8221; is an apt description if the ambiguity is unintentional, but what if the setter has constructed the clue that way on purpose?  They could be clearly indicating that the answer is one of two things, making it up to you to sort out which is required by filling in some crossing letters.</p>
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