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	<title>Comments on: Independent 8159 / Phi</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
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		<title>By: Bertandjoyce</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-217024</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertandjoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 00:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-217024</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whew! Thank goodness - we&#039;re not fans of Andrew Lloyd Webber but we do like the Practical Cats. We agree with you that Phi must have been referring to the Theatre Cat! It just didn&#039;t come up on our original  Google search.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whew! Thank goodness &#8211; we&#8217;re not fans of Andrew Lloyd Webber but we do like the Practical Cats. We agree with you that Phi must have been referring to the Theatre Cat! It just didn&#8217;t come up on our original  Google search.</p>
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		<title>By: Bertandjoyce</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-217020</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertandjoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 00:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-217020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pelham Barton, we thought Phi was referring to Asparagus in &#039;Cats&#039; rather than T S Eliot&#039;s cat called  Gus! However on checking again it sems that Gus was short for Asparagus!! We will have to check the original.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pelham Barton, we thought Phi was referring to Asparagus in &#8216;Cats&#8217; rather than T S Eliot&#8217;s cat called  Gus! However on checking again it sems that Gus was short for Asparagus!! We will have to check the original.</p>
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		<title>By: Pelham Barton</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-217010</link>
		<dc:creator>Pelham Barton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 21:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Bertandjoyce @7: I sincerely hope that Phi is referring to a character created by T.S. Eliot. I see no need to bring Andrew Lloyd Webber into it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bertandjoyce @7: I sincerely hope that Phi is referring to a character created by T.S. Eliot. I see no need to bring Andrew Lloyd Webber into it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bertandjoyce</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-217008</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertandjoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-217008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phi - You wouldn&#039;t be referring to a character from Andrew Lloyd Webber&#039;s musical adaptation would you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phi &#8211; You wouldn&#8217;t be referring to a character from Andrew Lloyd Webber&#8217;s musical adaptation would you?</p>
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		<title>By: Phi</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-217007</link>
		<dc:creator>Phi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-217007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Sphinxes we&#039;ve encountered at cat shows have all been Y-less.  Which would leave one row without a cat - or would it...?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Sphinxes we&#8217;ve encountered at cat shows have all been Y-less.  Which would leave one row without a cat &#8211; or would it&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Pelham Barton</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-216996</link>
		<dc:creator>Pelham Barton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-216996</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Phi for the crossword and Bert and Joyce for the blog. I must add my name to the list of those who enjoyed the puzzle without noticing the theme.

14dn: The parsing above is clearly far better than the one I had. I took &quot;Story&quot; in the sense of biography to give me LIFE, leaving ESTYL to account for. &quot;Liberal&quot; gives the L, and I got ESTY as ZESTY (spirited) losing its initial letter (&quot;one abandonding&quot;). The reason I am bothering to mention this is that I thought at one time that we might have an interesting variation on the idea of a pangram, where there would be no Z in the grid, but every letter of the alphabet was used in the wordplay, in some cases as an excluded letter. Has anyone ever seen that idea used in practice?

A small grumble about 12ac: I cannot account for the words &quot;with appearance of&quot; in the clue. As always, I will be delighted if someone can provide a good justification for these words beyond simply saying that they improve the surface reading, which they undoubtedly do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Phi for the crossword and Bert and Joyce for the blog. I must add my name to the list of those who enjoyed the puzzle without noticing the theme.</p>
<p>14dn: The parsing above is clearly far better than the one I had. I took &#8220;Story&#8221; in the sense of biography to give me LIFE, leaving ESTYL to account for. &#8220;Liberal&#8221; gives the L, and I got ESTY as ZESTY (spirited) losing its initial letter (&#8220;one abandonding&#8221;). The reason I am bothering to mention this is that I thought at one time that we might have an interesting variation on the idea of a pangram, where there would be no Z in the grid, but every letter of the alphabet was used in the wordplay, in some cases as an excluded letter. Has anyone ever seen that idea used in practice?</p>
<p>A small grumble about 12ac: I cannot account for the words &#8220;with appearance of&#8221; in the clue. As always, I will be delighted if someone can provide a good justification for these words beyond simply saying that they improve the surface reading, which they undoubtedly do.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn's Dad</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-216988</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn's Dad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 14:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-216988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, both.  Generally pretty straightforward, with just a couple of the four-letter answers holding me up at the end.  The theme, as usual, passed me by.  I&#039;m with you on cats.   Sinister creatures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, both.  Generally pretty straightforward, with just a couple of the four-letter answers holding me up at the end.  The theme, as usual, passed me by.  I&#8217;m with you on cats.   Sinister creatures.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas99</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-216974</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-216974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[allan_c

Your assumption is right. But &quot;definition by example&quot; is normally used to describe cases where, for example, &quot;marmalade&quot; indicates &quot;preserve&quot;, not the other way round. As you say, for a definition by example there should be an indication that it&#039;s only an example - &quot;Marmalade, say&quot;, &quot;Marmalade?&quot; etc. 

People sometimes confuse the two cases and complain when a category is used to clue one of its members, calling it &quot;definition by example&quot;, but this is a mistake. You can&#039;t object to &quot;actor&quot; on its own indicating &quot;Pacino&quot; or &quot;tree&quot; indcating &quot;oak&quot;, obviously. If you look at today&#039;s puzzle all the answers that are nouns have definitions of this type: 1,8,9,12,15,17,19,26,28 and so on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>allan_c</p>
<p>Your assumption is right. But &#8220;definition by example&#8221; is normally used to describe cases where, for example, &#8220;marmalade&#8221; indicates &#8220;preserve&#8221;, not the other way round. As you say, for a definition by example there should be an indication that it&#8217;s only an example &#8211; &#8220;Marmalade, say&#8221;, &#8220;Marmalade?&#8221; etc. </p>
<p>People sometimes confuse the two cases and complain when a category is used to clue one of its members, calling it &#8220;definition by example&#8221;, but this is a mistake. You can&#8217;t object to &#8220;actor&#8221; on its own indicating &#8220;Pacino&#8221; or &#8220;tree&#8221; indcating &#8220;oak&#8221;, obviously. If you look at today&#8217;s puzzle all the answers that are nouns have definitions of this type: 1,8,9,12,15,17,19,26,28 and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: Bertandjoyce</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-216972</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertandjoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-216972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks allan_c for pointing out the error in 22ac and also for the welcome back! We are noticing the cold - especially as our heating system is playing up!

The blog has now been amended.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks allan_c for pointing out the error in 22ac and also for the welcome back! We are noticing the cold &#8211; especially as our heating system is playing up!</p>
<p>The blog has now been amended.</p>
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		<title>By: allan_c</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2012/12/07/independent-8159-phi/#comment-216971</link>
		<dc:creator>allan_c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=52238#comment-216971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A gentle workout today from Phi, but the theme passed me by, despite FELINE being my CoD.

BTW the full clue for 22ac ends &quot;... old African country.&quot;  Surprising (or maybe not) how many African countries have changed their names, but once gulf=abyss emerged from the subconscious it was a write-in.

26ac was interesting.  I guessed &#039;preserve&#039; as a noun to be the definition and thought the answer might be MARMALADE without being able to see why.  But I tentatively wrote it in, whereupon the wordplay immediately became obvious.

Which raises an interesting, though no doubt trivial, point about definitions by example.  &#039;Preserve&#039; is used here to clue &#039;marmalade&#039; as an example of a preserve.  But in another situation one might use &#039;marmalade&#039;, perhaps with a ? or &#039;say&#039;, to clue &#039;preserve&#039;.  Would using (a) the part to clue the whole and (b) the whole to clue the part both be instances of definition by example?

Thanks to Phi for the puzzle; thanks for the blog - and welcome back -  to B&amp;J.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A gentle workout today from Phi, but the theme passed me by, despite FELINE being my CoD.</p>
<p>BTW the full clue for 22ac ends &#8220;&#8230; old African country.&#8221;  Surprising (or maybe not) how many African countries have changed their names, but once gulf=abyss emerged from the subconscious it was a write-in.</p>
<p>26ac was interesting.  I guessed &#8216;preserve&#8217; as a noun to be the definition and thought the answer might be MARMALADE without being able to see why.  But I tentatively wrote it in, whereupon the wordplay immediately became obvious.</p>
<p>Which raises an interesting, though no doubt trivial, point about definitions by example.  &#8216;Preserve&#8217; is used here to clue &#8216;marmalade&#8217; as an example of a preserve.  But in another situation one might use &#8216;marmalade&#8217;, perhaps with a ? or &#8216;say&#8217;, to clue &#8216;preserve&#8217;.  Would using (a) the part to clue the whole and (b) the whole to clue the part both be instances of definition by example?</p>
<p>Thanks to Phi for the puzzle; thanks for the blog &#8211; and welcome back &#8211;  to B&amp;J.</p>
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