Comments on: Independent 8165 / Phi

By: redddevil

redddevil — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 22:39:15 +0000

I agree absolutely with Pelham B and flashling in terms of both the ambiguity and the import.
What do I hear in the word that means that part of the church? I hear APPS.

By: flashling

flashling — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 19:50:51 +0000

I still think that “in” really doesn’t help getting the homophone order having been done by clues that break this very guide. Setters have got a lot better on this though.

By: Pelham Barton

Pelham Barton — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 19:11:50 +0000

Paul @13: Are you saying that the clue is unambiguous in itself, or that the puzzle as a whole is sound because the checked letter S removes the ambiguity?

By: Paul B

Paul B — Sun, 16 Dec 2012 17:03:59 +0000

Disagree re homophone – it’s absolutely sound (as it were).

By: Pelham Barton

Pelham Barton — Sat, 15 Dec 2012 09:42:59 +0000

Thanks Phi for dropping in and explaining your intention, which of course matches John’s interpretation in comment 9. I fully agree with your general point that it is desirable to have a linking word separating the modifier from the definition of the intended answer.

The problem in this case is that the linking word does not have to be taken as such, because many of us have taken the view that “audible in” (followed by the homophone not the entry) is as valid a homophone indicator as the single word “audible”. Of course, if the two defined words are of unequal lengths, there would be no ambiguity: the answer would be the one that fits the space provided. Indeed, this gives a generic form for the type of clue being sought at comment 186 in the General Discussion pages of this website, where the same clue has different solutions according to the length of the answer specified.

In answer to hounddog @3, checked letters serve two purposes in crosswords: first to distinguish between different possible answers that may fit a space and second to give solvers a start in solving clues, so that the clues do not all have to be solved from scratch. The reason I dislike so-called “quick” crosswords is that so many of the clues are ambiguous and checked letters have to be used to determine the right answer.

For non-prize weekday newspaper cryptics I think it is a legitimate expectation that the setter should try to make all clues unambiguous. I take Phi’s comment to be supportive of that view. I hope that we can all forgive occasional failings in that regard, as we forgive other occasional faults in clues, but that does not mean that we should not point them out.

Finally may I say that it has taken me a lot of space to explain my thinking, but I fully agree with K’s Dad @7 that this was a small niggle.

By: Phi

Phi — Sat, 15 Dec 2012 05:37:26 +0000

I do try to put the homophone indicator adjacent to the version not to be entered and then separate that little bundle from the definition (people get terribly uptight about linking words from time to time, but this seems to me to be a useful function). On a contextual issue, I doubt whether anyone would have complained about the ‘balanced on a cusp’ nature of the clue had the homophone and the entry been of different lengths – that’s always desirable, but not always achievable, in which case it’s back to the structure I outlined at the start.

I thought AO DAI fine (well, I would, of course…) – a notch behind the cheongsam in my vocab of Oriental female attire, but common enough in fashion pages and the like. There’s no Nina this week – really, you know, I only do them about 50% of the time. It may be about time for an incomplete Nina, just as a tease…

By: Bertandjoyce

Bertandjoyce — Sat, 15 Dec 2012 00:16:13 +0000

Well, we beg to differ from most of you. We didn’t think APSE was ambiguous for the reasons John has given @9 above. Joyce bought an ao dai recently and had heard of 1ac, so no obscurities today for us!

We’re also not that bothered about the cricket!

Good end to the week but we can’t find a nina? Is Phi having a week away from them?

Thanks Phi and John.

By: John

John — Fri, 14 Dec 2012 21:42:02 +0000

The clue is ‘Computer programs audible in part of church’ and this seems unambiguous to me: since ‘in’ comes after the word ‘audible’ the definition is clearly what follows ‘in’; and ‘audible’ clearly applies to ‘computer programs’.

By: flashling

flashling — Fri, 14 Dec 2012 20:41:45 +0000

Didn’t like the APPS/APSE bit, OK IF you’ve got the crossing letter, then it’s obvious, AO DAI frankly ridiculous for a week day, I thought HEIR/HIER was pushing it a bit.

Anyway thank John for getting away from the cricket and PH for the puzzle.

By: Kathryn's Dad

Kathryn's Dad — Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:25:24 +0000

Allan, in that case you won’t have come across the superlative of 1ac: PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE WITH A CHERRY ON TOP.

I’m not going to make a big deal of APSE; it’s a small niggle. But I think a clue should only have one possible answer. Yes, we need crossing letters and other solutions for clues like ’17, 19, 24ac’ when the compiler is giving us a themed puzzle; and yes, crossing letters here would make it unequivocally APSE; but I rest my case …

Now off to watch the test highlights of Swanny crashing it everywhere in Nagpur. Will drop back in later to see what others think.