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	<title>Comments on: Guardian 25,855 / Philistine</title>
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	<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/</link>
	<description>Never knowingly undersolved.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 May 2013 15:02:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: mhl</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-220034</link>
		<dc:creator>mhl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 13:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-220034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Val: I think it&#039;s fine, personally - &quot;It&#039;s a personal matter&quot; and &quot;It&#039;s nobody&#039;s business&quot; are very close to synonymous, and they don&#039;t have any connection to the other definition.  The clue being more general than the answer wouldn&#039;t be a problem in any case, given the usual convention that, for example, &quot;dog&quot; can clue ALSATIAN, but you shouldn&#039;t have &quot;Alsatian&quot; clueing DOG unless it were &quot;Alsatian, for example?&quot;, &quot;Alsatian, perhaps?&quot;, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Val: I think it&#8217;s fine, personally &#8211; &#8220;It&#8217;s a personal matter&#8221; and &#8220;It&#8217;s nobody&#8217;s business&#8221; are very close to synonymous, and they don&#8217;t have any connection to the other definition.  The clue being more general than the answer wouldn&#8217;t be a problem in any case, given the usual convention that, for example, &#8220;dog&#8221; can clue ALSATIAN, but you shouldn&#8217;t have &#8220;Alsatian&#8221; clueing DOG unless it were &#8220;Alsatian, for example?&#8221;, &#8220;Alsatian, perhaps?&#8221;, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Val</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-220026</link>
		<dc:creator>Val</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 12:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-220026</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m surprised nobody else has complained about 6d. I got it from the crossing letters and can see the connection with working hard but surely &quot;a personal matter&quot; is far too vague to be considered as part of a double definition? Many, many things can be considered as personal matters, most of them not even vaguely related to buggery.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised nobody else has complained about 6d. I got it from the crossing letters and can see the connection with working hard but surely &#8220;a personal matter&#8221; is far too vague to be considered as part of a double definition? Many, many things can be considered as personal matters, most of them not even vaguely related to buggery.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-220006</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-220006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen .... :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen &#8230;. <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: RCWhiting</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-220002</link>
		<dc:creator>RCWhiting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 16:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-220002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh dear! What a fate for an atheist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear! What a fate for an atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: coltrane</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-220001</link>
		<dc:creator>coltrane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 15:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-220001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil @21 Fair comment.  I find that when I get a puzzle that does not work for me I prefer to say nothing, and wait for the next one to come along. 

As for deifying RCW, it was bound to happen!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil @21 Fair comment.  I find that when I get a puzzle that does not work for me I prefer to say nothing, and wait for the next one to come along. </p>
<p>As for deifying RCW, it was bound to happen!!</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-219999</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-219999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Coltrane, I am certainly not &quot;the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong&quot;. I just had a different opinion on some of the clues and after my post @3 didn&#039;t provoke any reaction, I decided to make clear why I found some things unexpectedly iffy.

I realise that many solvers will disagree, but I cannot else than give an opinion within the limits of my view on crosswords.
Indeed, at times (not always though) I can be annoyed or excited by individual clues which may affect my overall appreciation of a crossword, either positive or negative. 
Others, like you or RCW, see a crossword as a whole and just want to have fun or a challenge. I have nothing against that, but my approach is slightly different as I am also interested in the technical aspects of clueing.

My post @17 was not meant to be a castigation of the setter Philistine, even if it may seem so.
As I said above, I admired many of his previous crosswords.
But sometimes puzzles just don&#039;t work for me, and this was one of these. 
Can happen.

BTW, RCW is now promoted to RDW? D of Divine? :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coltrane, I am certainly not &#8220;the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong&#8221;. I just had a different opinion on some of the clues and after my post @3 didn&#8217;t provoke any reaction, I decided to make clear why I found some things unexpectedly iffy.</p>
<p>I realise that many solvers will disagree, but I cannot else than give an opinion within the limits of my view on crosswords.<br />
Indeed, at times (not always though) I can be annoyed or excited by individual clues which may affect my overall appreciation of a crossword, either positive or negative.<br />
Others, like you or RCW, see a crossword as a whole and just want to have fun or a challenge. I have nothing against that, but my approach is slightly different as I am also interested in the technical aspects of clueing.</p>
<p>My post @17 was not meant to be a castigation of the setter Philistine, even if it may seem so.<br />
As I said above, I admired many of his previous crosswords.<br />
But sometimes puzzles just don&#8217;t work for me, and this was one of these.<br />
Can happen.</p>
<p>BTW, RCW is now promoted to RDW? D of Divine? <img src='http://www.fifteensquared.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: coltrane</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-219998</link>
		<dc:creator>coltrane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-219998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RDW@19 As I see it you ARE The Bishop that is all we need!!   You are always unswerving in you praise for crosswords as a whole which have variety and provide a certain degree of difficulty.  I would concur with that,]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RDW@19 As I see it you ARE The Bishop that is all we need!!   You are always unswerving in you praise for crosswords as a whole which have variety and provide a certain degree of difficulty.  I would concur with that,</p>
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		<title>By: RCWhiting</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-219997</link>
		<dc:creator>RCWhiting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 12:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[coltrane @18
I am largely with you but we are lacking the cathedrae.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>coltrane @18<br />
I am largely with you but we are lacking the cathedrae.</p>
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		<title>By: coltrane</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-219979</link>
		<dc:creator>coltrane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 00:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-219979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sil@ 17.  Sorry but I entirely disagree!  You have listed a number of clues you don&#039;t like.  Of course you have the right to feel that way, but what makes you the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong.  Many who have posted here, and I include myself,  enjoy the challenge of clues like 17a, and are glad for the extra variety they bring.  We get lots of complaints when there are too many of one type of clue, but when a setter expands the possibilities he is castigated; I don&#039;t understand why.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sil@ 17.  Sorry but I entirely disagree!  You have listed a number of clues you don&#8217;t like.  Of course you have the right to feel that way, but what makes you the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong.  Many who have posted here, and I include myself,  enjoy the challenge of clues like 17a, and are glad for the extra variety they bring.  We get lots of complaints when there are too many of one type of clue, but when a setter expands the possibilities he is castigated; I don&#8217;t understand why.</p>
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		<title>By: Sil van den Hoek</title>
		<link>http://www.fifteensquared.net/2013/02/02/guardian-25855-philistine/#comment-219978</link>
		<dc:creator>Sil van den Hoek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fifteensquared.net/?p=54903#comment-219978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[After reading all the posts above, I must have been the only one finding this Philistine crossword tougher than his previous ones. As I said @3 probably a wavelength thing, but I wasn&#039;t quite happy with it because usually my opinion on the difficulty of a crossword isn&#039;t very different from what the majority thinks.

I qualified the much discussed 17d as &#039;unfair&#039;. Perhaps, I shouldn&#039;t have gone that far, but it will certainly not be my Clue of the Month [though, I guess, many others will go for it].
I have no problem with splitting up words in a clue. As a daily Guardian solver I got used to it. But what I do not like is that the definition is part of that split too. I believe Philistine did a similar before, which I then called &#039;novel&#039;, but I do not like it. Unlike Gervase - sorry mate - I would not want to write a clue like this. It is crossing borders that I do not want to cross. Others might find this &#039;device&#039; adventurous, I do not.

I also would rather prefer a setter not to write clues like 13ac (TEEM). Nobody so far has objected (which I find odd given discussions on this topic in the past), but it is once more one of these ambiguous clues that should be avoided. &quot;Suitable for returning swarm&quot; can just as easily lead to MEET as to the actual solution.

20ac: &quot;Transport system, the first to go chaotic&quot;.
Two possible anagram indicators (transport, chaotic), that&#039;s OK - makes one think a bit more. But &quot;system, the first to go&quot; leads for me to &quot;ystem&quot;. Apparently, Philistine belongs to the group of setters who find &quot;the first&quot; for T acceptable. As I said before, I hate it and I can easily name setters who would never use it. But it is all the more annoying because the clue actually tells me to delete the first letter of &#039;system&#039;.

Last week there was a puzzle by a new setter in the FT, Wanderer. I praised him for a clue that used &quot;essentially&quot; to indicate precisely the central letters of a combination of words. In Philistine&#039;s puzzle we had [wallp]APERCUS[tomers] - not exactly in the middle. He could have said &#039;... to a wallpaper customer&#039;. 
Probably, to most of the solvers and/or the readers of this blog it is not of any interest, but for me it is something that I care about when I (occasionally) write clues.

For me personally it is more important to be precise, unambiguous and what I think is fair, than to come up with fancy things like 17d. Creating a great surface is more my kind of bonus to a crossword clue. Exactly the reason why I like Tramp&#039;s crosswords and the ones by Donk and Rorschach, the rising stars in Crosswordland - unfortunately only in the Independent so far.
Let&#039;s face it, &quot;By cupboard love&quot; (24ac): what does it mean?

So, sorry, Philistine, I admired many of your previous puzzles but this one couldn&#039;t please me ultimately.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading all the posts above, I must have been the only one finding this Philistine crossword tougher than his previous ones. As I said @3 probably a wavelength thing, but I wasn&#8217;t quite happy with it because usually my opinion on the difficulty of a crossword isn&#8217;t very different from what the majority thinks.</p>
<p>I qualified the much discussed 17d as &#8216;unfair&#8217;. Perhaps, I shouldn&#8217;t have gone that far, but it will certainly not be my Clue of the Month [though, I guess, many others will go for it].<br />
I have no problem with splitting up words in a clue. As a daily Guardian solver I got used to it. But what I do not like is that the definition is part of that split too. I believe Philistine did a similar before, which I then called &#8216;novel&#8217;, but I do not like it. Unlike Gervase &#8211; sorry mate &#8211; I would not want to write a clue like this. It is crossing borders that I do not want to cross. Others might find this &#8216;device&#8217; adventurous, I do not.</p>
<p>I also would rather prefer a setter not to write clues like 13ac (TEEM). Nobody so far has objected (which I find odd given discussions on this topic in the past), but it is once more one of these ambiguous clues that should be avoided. &#8220;Suitable for returning swarm&#8221; can just as easily lead to MEET as to the actual solution.</p>
<p>20ac: &#8220;Transport system, the first to go chaotic&#8221;.<br />
Two possible anagram indicators (transport, chaotic), that&#8217;s OK &#8211; makes one think a bit more. But &#8220;system, the first to go&#8221; leads for me to &#8220;ystem&#8221;. Apparently, Philistine belongs to the group of setters who find &#8220;the first&#8221; for T acceptable. As I said before, I hate it and I can easily name setters who would never use it. But it is all the more annoying because the clue actually tells me to delete the first letter of &#8216;system&#8217;.</p>
<p>Last week there was a puzzle by a new setter in the FT, Wanderer. I praised him for a clue that used &#8220;essentially&#8221; to indicate precisely the central letters of a combination of words. In Philistine&#8217;s puzzle we had [wallp]APERCUS[tomers] &#8211; not exactly in the middle. He could have said &#8216;&#8230; to a wallpaper customer&#8217;.<br />
Probably, to most of the solvers and/or the readers of this blog it is not of any interest, but for me it is something that I care about when I (occasionally) write clues.</p>
<p>For me personally it is more important to be precise, unambiguous and what I think is fair, than to come up with fancy things like 17d. Creating a great surface is more my kind of bonus to a crossword clue. Exactly the reason why I like Tramp&#8217;s crosswords and the ones by Donk and Rorschach, the rising stars in Crosswordland &#8211; unfortunately only in the Independent so far.<br />
Let&#8217;s face it, &#8220;By cupboard love&#8221; (24ac): what does it mean?</p>
<p>So, sorry, Philistine, I admired many of your previous puzzles but this one couldn&#8217;t please me ultimately.</p>
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