Fifteensquared

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Independent Crossword 8201 by Bannsider (Saturday prize puzzle 26-01-2013)

Posted by twencelas on February 2nd, 2013

twencelas.

So it’s a snowy day in January and for those with some time to kill a Saturday puzzle from the enigmatic Bannsider.

Quite a work-out it was too. Some wonderfully inventive devices, as always from Bannsider, in use in this puzzle.

All with sound explanations, I think, when you see why. But as usual, it can take some time to see the reason. Marvellous surface readings too.

There are several liberties taken, if my parsing is correct.

  • OPs – For Original Poster in internet slang
  • for one – for example (eg)

Neither are confirmed by Chambers but I would accept as clear enough indicators. I suspect there may be contrary views here.

And many uses of words with alternative/dialectal meanings to throw one of the scent

  • diet for parliament
  • sub for subordinate
  • jolly for trip
  • sex for six
  • Da for dad
  • Relay for staged event
  • gas for talking
  • making waves to define a sea

There is one, I would quibble  – Moi for I – Moi is me in French and thus would become Mich in German and not, I would argue, Ich.I appreciate Moi is commonly used in English, but would further argue it does keep its original meaning of me.

Many thanks Bannsider – probably the hardest workout for a blog of an Independent Crossword for me so far.

I await comments on how others found this with interest.

Key:

Rev. (Reverse); * Anagram; Underline – definition

ACROSS

1`            Some sandwiches in meal spoiled diet

Part (some) around (sandwiches) (in meal)* = PARLIAMENT

7              It’s rare for Scottish pacifist to follow french one

Un (french one) + co (pacifist – conscientous objector) = UNCO

9              Regret Ken’s girl talking like a fool?

Homonym of Rue (Regret) + Barbie (Ken’s girl) = RHUBARBY

10           Agents coming to take pressure of jolly lass

CIA (agents) to replace p in trip (jolly) = TRICIA

12           Royal grant distributed with haughtiness

(royal grant)* = ARROGANTLY

13           Cardinal sending back couple after CD about sex

Reverse(EF (couple after CD) around VI (sex – six)) = FIVE

15           Songwriters who can read lines keeping shtum at the outset

Palmists (who can read lines – fortune tellers) around s (shtum at the outset) = PSALMISTS

17           The present is something Santa delivers which father opens

Toy (something Santa delivers) around Da (father) = TODAY

19           Second rate waiter’s place to pull large empty cracker?

B (second rate) + limbo – l(large) = BIMBO (empty cracker as not too bright beauty)

20           Military vessel in harbour reversing original posters welcome

op’s (Original Posters) + hi (welcome) in  Rev. (Port (harbour)) = TROOPSHIP

22           Bank staged event without head of accounts

Relay (staged event) – a (head of accounts) = RELY

24           Hold semi finals in Craven cottage well before second leg

Half(semi)+ last letters of “Craven cottage well” + s (second) + on (leg) = HALF NELSON

26           Colourless individual’s refusal to back Scottish team

Albino (colourless individual) with no (refusal) reversed = ALBION

29           Temperature fluctuating a lot constrains family to make do with gas

T (temperature) + (a lot)* around kin (family) = TALK INTO (gas as in talk)

30           Scottish resort that’s non-stop

O (Non) + ban (stop) = OBAN

31           Pet stores on reflection by no means lacking

Stroke(Pet) around rev. (By no) = STONY BROKE

DOWN

2              Her unsocial flaws show

(her unsocial)* = A CHORUS LINE

3              Put up money to purchase accomodating area for posh tree

Lob (put up) + lolly (money) + buy (purchase) replacing u (posh) with a (area) = LOBLOLLY BAY ( an American tree (Gordonia lasianthus) of the tea family)

4              One in court to show lawyer up making waves

Rev (ct (court) around I (one) + air (show) + da (lawyer)) = ADRIATIC

5              International team training sub for one year

EG (For one) + y (year) + Pt (training) [indicated by sub – under]= EGYPT

6              Moon about snubbing irritable son

Tetchy (irritable)  c (about) + s (son0 = TETHYS

7/16/28 Churchman from unionist Ulster with dark, heavy coat – Paisley?

U (Unionist) + NI (Ulster) + tar (dark, heavy coat) + Ian (Paisley) = UNITARIAN

8/11       Pretentious? Moi? If turning to German in Greek letter

Ich (I in German as in Moi – me in French) in Chi (Greek letter() = CHICHI

13           One pays more experienced guards, being not up for the fight

Foots (pays) + I (one) in older (more experienced) = FOOT SOLDIER

14           Five died in developing vast oil well for Asian city

(vast oil +vd (five died))* + ok (well) = VLADIVOST OK

18           Don’t make a lot of time to tour private place

Day (time) around [own (private) + pl (place)] = DOWN PLAY

21           Children wearing abnormally large trousers

Ch (children) + in (wearing) + os (abnormally large) = CHINOS

23/27     At Roland Garros the British doubles seeds are in this

La (French for the) + B doubled = LABLAB (a tropical bean (Dolichos lablab) with edible pods)

25           What’s not to like about contracting that involves house calls?

Hidden reversed nOT TO Like = LOTTO

 

19 Responses to “Independent Crossword 8201 by Bannsider (Saturday prize puzzle 26-01-2013)”

  1. Radler says:

    Bannsider is correct to translate “moi” as “ich”. The Germans, unlike the French, always use “ich” for the subject.

  2. crypticsue says:

    As usual with a Bannsider, I was defeated (even after several days of on and off cogitation) by one corner. A most enjoyable fight as usual so thank you to him and to twenclas for explaining the ones I really ought to have got!

  3. Dormouse says:

    I don’t recall too much trouble in completing this, but a lot of the answers I just couldn’t see. 25dn I could see what the answer was but I just couldn’t the hidden reverse.

    I’m curious that I several times read about daily puzzles this week being easier than this one, usually about puzzles I couldn’t complete.

  4. twencelas says:

    Radler – Can you explain further your comment at 1. Are you saying moi translates as ‘I’?

  5. NeilW says:

    Thanks, twencelas. I did this online and must confess to using the check button a few times, without which I would have struggled.

    One tiny correction: the BAY in LOBLOLLY BAY is derived by substituting A(rea) for U (posh) in BuY (purchase).

  6. twencelas says:

    Thanks NealW – have corrected it. Also restored the underlines

  7. Radler says:

    Reply to twenelas @4
    Yes, for example “c’est moi” in English would be either “it is I” or “it is me”, (the former being the grammatically correct version). In German, it would always be “es ist ich”.

  8. Thomas99 says:

    Well done Radler (@1 and 7)- I had my doubts at the time but you’re right. “Moi?” as it appears in the clue (meaning “Me?” or perhaps “Do you mean me?” would presumably always be translated as “Ich?”, not “Mich?”. “Du bist [German word for pretentious]!” “Ach? Ich?” but “Tu es pretentieux!” “Hein? Moi?” In fact if anyone’s in any doubt just stick “Moi” into Google Translate and you’ll see the only result in German is “Ich”.

    This was a humdinger. Bannsider clearly doesn’t want to surrender his toughest setter in the Indy crown.

  9. twencelas says:

    Thomas99 – I’m hoping to contact a German friend later to put me out of my misery on this one. I remain unconvinced.
    Google translate like Wikipedia is not infallible – my experience of using google translate and showing the result to a native speaker of the language usually results in some laughter and no that’s not how it should be said.

  10. Bannsider says:

    Thanks for the wonderful blog twencelas: as a speaker of French and a former student of German, I nevertheless had to double-check that “moi” and “ich” were the same. One can’t really rely on the English words “I” and “me” as a guide here. Radler has explained it far better than I could have done (!)

    I am really sorry that crypticsue has had another DNF: I can assure you that I don’t wish to regain my crown (surrendered gladly to Nimrod last year) as the toughest Indy setter!

    I wonder if anyone spotted the Nina ?

  11. Thomas99 says:

    Further to the Ich/Moi discussion, Freud’s “Ich” (“ego” in English) is also “moi” in French.

    PS. Radler – if you do speak to a German friend, make sure he’s good at French too! (And at translating.)

  12. Ian SW3 says:

    Many thanks Twenceslas and Bannsider. I was defeated by “lablab” and still wonder what it means, along with loblolly bay.

    In your parsing of 9a, you have inadvertently underlined “talking” as part of the definition, whereas it is a homophone indicator to go with Ken’s friend.

    And no, I can’t spot the Nina.

  13. twencelas says:

    Ian – I’ve added Chambers definitions for those 2 and removed the underline – Thanks.

    As to the Ich/moi discussion, I think it’s valid – me and I are less interchangeable in my part of the world, but we’re not renowned for following English grammar rules in conversation. German is more precise, but as Bannsider says its the French meaning that is the key.
    I do appreciate why it should be Moi in the clue with its’ Fawlty Towers connection

    The Nina so far escapes me.

  14. Dormouse says:

    I do notice LSO FAN running down the middle (starting on the L of “arrogantly”). Perhaps Bannsider likes the London Symphony Orchestra (who, it happens, I saw last week).

  15. Thomas99 says:

    Glad there now seem to be a consensus on 8/11d. “Ich” and “moi” in the clue – unless they’re nouns referring to the Freudian ego – are predicative, as in Radler’s example “es ist ich” = “c’est moi” (“je” is not an alternative; conversely neither is “mich”). Incidentally, Radler’s comment that “It is I” is grammatically correct (implying that “it is me” isn’t) made me look it up in the OED. Their first recorded predicative “me” is from 1592 (“Let it be me”)and other examples are taken from Shakespeare (who used both), Wycherley, Swift, Goldsmith etc. – some from every century up to the 20th. It has never, as far as one can see, been ungrammatical. I would be very careful about saying “it is I”, “this is I”, “it has to be I” etc. It’s rarely appropriate. I think the reason “It is I” sounds ok might be that Hamlet says it (although he’s being very emphatic and disruptive at the time). The others sound slightly mad to me.

    PS. My comment @11 about the German friend should of course have been addressed to Twencelas, not Radler.

  16. MikeC says:

    Thanks twencelas and Bannsider. I came late to this chewy but nourishing feast – completed the grid but needed help with some of the parsing. Great stuff – but the nina completely escapes me (do I need to say, “as usual”?). Anyone put me/us out of my/our misery?

  17. Bannsider says:

    Nina:
    Look for a name in 1ac and further names in 9ac and 12ac (more or less obscure depending on how well you know our family!) – the key bits though are the answers 13 and 17ac as a phrase.

    I realise few people would ever have spotted this, but it’s there for posterity.

    On the cluing front, “sub” was a bit devious perhaps, likewise OP for “Original posters”, which has made the online Oxford dictionary but, as far as I know, not the paper version.

  18. flashling says:

    Well then belated happy 5th birthday to Liam Rogan, too well hidden dad.

  19. MikeC says:

    Thanks, Bannsider. I don’t feel so bad about not spotting it now!

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