Comments on: Independent Crossword 8201 by Bannsider (Saturday prize puzzle 26-01-2013)

By: MikeC

MikeC — Wed, 06 Feb 2013 08:53:59 +0000

Thanks, Bannsider. I don’t feel so bad about not spotting it now!

By: flashling

flashling — Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:58:10 +0000

Well then belated happy 5th birthday to Liam Rogan, too well hidden dad.

By: Bannsider

Bannsider — Tue, 05 Feb 2013 15:00:35 +0000

Nina:
Look for a name in 1ac and further names in 9ac and 12ac (more or less obscure depending on how well you know our family!) – the key bits though are the answers 13 and 17ac as a phrase.

I realise few people would ever have spotted this, but it’s there for posterity.

On the cluing front, “sub” was a bit devious perhaps, likewise OP for “Original posters”, which has made the online Oxford dictionary but, as far as I know, not the paper version.

By: MikeC

MikeC — Tue, 05 Feb 2013 13:22:22 +0000

Thanks twencelas and Bannsider. I came late to this chewy but nourishing feast – completed the grid but needed help with some of the parsing. Great stuff – but the nina completely escapes me (do I need to say, “as usual”?). Anyone put me/us out of my/our misery?

By: Thomas99

Thomas99 — Mon, 04 Feb 2013 13:32:12 +0000

Glad there now seem to be a consensus on 8/11d. “Ich” and “moi” in the clue – unless they’re nouns referring to the Freudian ego – are predicative, as in Radler’s example “es ist ich” = “c’est moi” (“je” is not an alternative; conversely neither is “mich”). Incidentally, Radler’s comment that “It is I” is grammatically correct (implying that “it is me” isn’t) made me look it up in the OED. Their first recorded predicative “me” is from 1592 (“Let it be me”)and other examples are taken from Shakespeare (who used both), Wycherley, Swift, Goldsmith etc. – some from every century up to the 20th. It has never, as far as one can see, been ungrammatical. I would be very careful about saying “it is I”, “this is I”, “it has to be I” etc. It’s rarely appropriate. I think the reason “It is I” sounds ok might be that Hamlet says it (although he’s being very emphatic and disruptive at the time). The others sound slightly mad to me.

PS. My comment @11 about the German friend should of course have been addressed to Twencelas, not Radler.

By: Dormouse

Dormouse — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 21:07:34 +0000

I do notice LSO FAN running down the middle (starting on the L of “arrogantly”). Perhaps Bannsider likes the London Symphony Orchestra (who, it happens, I saw last week).

By: twencelas

twencelas — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 16:30:41 +0000

Ian – I’ve added Chambers definitions for those 2 and removed the underline – Thanks.

As to the Ich/moi discussion, I think it’s valid – me and I are less interchangeable in my part of the world, but we’re not renowned for following English grammar rules in conversation. German is more precise, but as Bannsider says its the French meaning that is the key.
I do appreciate why it should be Moi in the clue with its’ Fawlty Towers connection

The Nina so far escapes me.

By: Ian SW3

Ian SW3 — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:42:28 +0000

Many thanks Twenceslas and Bannsider. I was defeated by “lablab” and still wonder what it means, along with loblolly bay.

In your parsing of 9a, you have inadvertently underlined “talking” as part of the definition, whereas it is a homophone indicator to go with Ken’s friend.

And no, I can’t spot the Nina.

By: Thomas99

Thomas99 — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 22:35:21 +0000

Further to the Ich/Moi discussion, Freud’s “Ich” (“ego” in English) is also “moi” in French.

PS. Radler – if you do speak to a German friend, make sure he’s good at French too! (And at translating.)

By: Bannsider

Bannsider — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 22:02:03 +0000

Thanks for the wonderful blog twencelas: as a speaker of French and a former student of German, I nevertheless had to double-check that “moi” and “ich” were the same. One can’t really rely on the English words “I” and “me” as a guide here. Radler has explained it far better than I could have done (!)

I am really sorry that crypticsue has had another DNF: I can assure you that I don’t wish to regain my crown (surrendered gladly to Nimrod last year) as the toughest Indy setter!

I wonder if anyone spotted the Nina ?