Guardian 26,205 / Logodaedalus

48 comments on “Guardian 26,205 / Logodaedalus”

1. I enjoyed this one, after a slow start I got the hang of the clues and the rest followed quite quickly for me. I filled in Aspidistra but didn’t understand the respectibility reference thanks for explaining.

2. Thanks, Eileen. I tend to agree with you about the rhyming couplets – when Araucaria used them in some of his Araubeticals, they were the icing on the cake but man cannot live on icing alone. 😉

   I thought, in FEATHERS, HERS was doubly defined by both “better half’s” and “not mine”, although it’s only really there for the rhyme.

   If a bomb goes off “early” it’s “too soon”. Scarce (FIDGET) made me think of “unusual” so seemed OK as an anagrind.

3. Thanks, NeilW. I agree about ‘not mine’ and nearly underlined it – but not about ‘scarce’!

4. Altogether a rather odd, though not entirely displeasing, experience. I thought the clue for PANDAS was beautifully crafted – an almost perfect evocation of the animal in just six words. I agree with Eileen about ‘scarce’ as an anagrind. While solving the chief things I noticed was the large number of clues (eg 2, 6, 8 and 11) where whole bits of words in the clues needed to be transferred to the solutions.

5. Hi ulaca

   I pondered long and hard about commenting on that other characteristic of Logodaedalus’ puzzles but decided in the end to leave it to someone else, since, when commenting on this setter, I’ve never before managed to resist quoting the most egregious example: ‘clumsy when giving ring to a fish [6]’, and I thought I’d perhaps been harsh enough today. There, I’ve done it again. 😉

6. Thanks for the blog, Eileen. I pretty much agree with all your comments, especially “make” vs “let” for dilemmas. I found this a bit harder than some of L’s previous puzzles, though many of the clues become very obvious once you work your way past the extra verbosity that is entailed by the rhyming and scansion. The tendency of “whole bits of words in the clues need[ing] to be transferred to the solutions” that ulaca mentions is very characteristic of this setter.

   You may have thought it too obvious to need saying, but I wasn’t aware of SHEATH meaning “A woman’s close-fitting tubular dress”.

7. Hi Andrew

   Before I wrote the blog, I looked back through the archive and noted again how often we’ve made the same comments about L’s puzzles, notably the point made by ulaca.

   And, yes, I did wonder about explaining SHEATH: I’ve had several myself – but it’s perhaps rather a long time ago!

8. Thanks to Eileen for the blog and supplementaries. I didn’t feel the need for SHEATH to be explained, but in view of the information at 7, I am glad Andrew asked!

   Perhaps you felt that there was enough criticism, but I am surprised that 14a escaped – it is not a cryptic clue at all, there is no wordplay, or allusions to Orwell or Gracie Fields for that matter.

9. Thanks Eileen. Ludicrously, I missed the couplets (partly due to my habit of solving by pogo-sticking around the grid, and also I don’t know this setter’s style). So many clues had an unnecessary word or two – obviously now for the meter. It made a relatively straightforward puzzle quite tricky. Somehow, I still enjoyed it.

10. At first the clues seemed incredibly wordy and over-complicated, but I soon got the hang of his approach and found the puzzle very enjoyable. Thanks to Logodaedalus and Eileen.

11. Thanks Eileen and Logodaedalus

    It seemed to get better as I went along. I agree that the rhyming couplets too easily lead to wordiness and some slightly sloppy cluing. Nonetheless I ticked 5a, 10a, and 22a.

12. Thank goodness it was not just me, molonglo @9. The couplets passed me by too. Possibly because I was solving on-line today, where you only ‘see’ one clue at a time (I don’t bother to scroll down to the complete clue-set).

    I thought this was going to be quite hard until, all of a sudden, the W side yielded. The other half took a bit longer, though I’d had an early, unconvinced stab at ASPIDISTRA confirmed by the check button. Had to run through loads of Greek islands until I got SAMOS-A.

13. The appearance of the wordsmith Logodaedalus is always a treat – too often a rare treat these days as you have pointed out. Thank you both.

14. On first read-through I noticed nothing except that it seemed extremely difficult! Then I saw the rhymes and things started to fit together. In the past I’ve also felt that rhyming couplets must require a lot of work for the setter and limited gain for the solver, but today I really appreciated them. Also won brownie points for panini (I often feel I am the only person outside Italy using it as a plural!), lovely clue for pandas, and of course for featuring a fine boy’s name in 8d!

15. Thanks Eileen

    Sorry that this was not your cup of 11a. I’m with ulaca’s assessment of ‘a rather odd, though not entirely displeasing experience’. I found most of it very straightforward though the NW quadrant held me up a wee bit. As far as I recall, Araucaria only ever cast his clues in rhyming couplets for his alphabetical puzzles, which gave him an impressive double layer of self-imposed constraint.

    I agree with the quibbles about DILEMMAS – which surely imply that ANY choice is imperfect, so ‘make’ isn’t a whole lot better than ‘let’? Few of the clues are top drawer, but again I agree with ulaca that PANDAS stands out, and with Eileen that a plural definition for PANINI was most welcome.

    But quirkiness and variety is what distinguishes the Guardian crossword from some of its more formally constrained brethren. That is what endears it to many of us, but the price is the occasional Marmite (Reece’s Peanut Butter Cup?) puzzle.

16. Boo! Hiss! I’m not a fan of this at all. The rhymes (which, like others have said, escaped me since I solve online) not only make the clues wordy, but also make the defiinitions oblique. For example, “offshoot” simply doesn’t mean “creeping runner said it.” There were several of these that escaped me entirely, and I’d say that for the most part it was for the wrong reasons. You shouldn’t have had to read George Orwell to get the “wordplay” half of a clue, either.

17. Thanks for the blog, Eileen. I’m with you on this one — except I didn’t even notice the rhyming couplets 🙁

    As I was solving, I felt that some of the definitions were slightly off or the clues were too wordy, so that explains it. I also felt 14ac was not really cryptic.

    My favourite was PANDAS.

18. Thanks Logodaedalus; clever to put in rhyming couplets but it came at the expense of some atrocious surfaces – what does this mean: ‘Greek island has a snack, three-way design?’

    Thanks Eileeen, I’m largely with you on this one. PANDAS was nice though.

19. Thanks to Eileen for the blog.

    I thought of ASPIDISTRA very quickly but did not know the George Orwell aspect so I was left scratching my head.

    I also missed the rhyming couplets so that left me puzzled over some clues e.g. 17d.

    I also made a very slow start but gradually picked up speed as the answers went in.

20. I didn’t notice the rhyming either. Perhaps if I had I wouldn’t have found this quite so not old-fashioned but something like that. I did smile at 20d because there is some correspondence about panino, cappuccino and scampo in today’s DT.

    Thanks to Eileen and the setter.

21. I didn’t see the couplets, either, only being struck by fact that too many of the clues were weak, awkward or obscure.
    Sorry, Logodaedalus, but you sacrificed too much to that objective.

22. The wordiness of 24a threw me off – since (for rhyming purposes, obviously, although I didn’t realise it at the time) everything after “out” is redundant, the clue suggests *(RTIFOD) – an anagram (“formed”) of “BRITAIN OF OLD” minus (“out”) “NO BAIL” which, by sheer coincidence, happens to be six letters.

    14a seemed a bit weak too – not really cryptic at all. And “respectability” and “like me” don’t even rhyme!

    PANDAS and EARL GREY were nice, though, and I think ALLURE is a good clue hamstrung by the need to fit the meter.

23. Thanks, Logodaedalus and Eileen,

    Eileen, Yes to PANINI!! Worth doing the puzzle for that alone.

    I’m with Liz@17 for PANDAS – a super clue.

    ASPIDISTRA just flew in (Sorry!). Any hints of a long plant name and respectability could only have been that.

    SAMOSA was good, too.

    Giovanna xx

24. Variety is the spice of life, folks. Enjoy it for what it is. Crosswords don’t have rules; if you want more consistency, don’t do the Grauniad! (Gervase @15).

    Also I don’t think anyone can complain about missing the couplets because they do the online version and don’t see all the clues at once.

    It was a fine test of mental dexterity and variety, quite fun and worthwhile. Well don, Logo – don’t let the ba****ds get you down!

    [all meant in jest lest anyone think otherwise]

25. *done*

26. And *thinks* (so much for the moral high ground)

27. I think I’d be more inclined to be critical if this came from a more regular setter, but since it’s a rare appearance I’d rather be generous. I always used to find Logodaedalus one of the easier setters, and I agree with Andrew that this was not his easiest (or the most anagram-dominated). Last in was FIDGET – it took me a long time to look for the anagram and I wasn’t convinced by sparse as anagrind either.

    This was the 98th Logodaedalus in the Guardian archive, but only the second since 2011. So the next centurion could be a close race, with Enigmatist (86 excluding collaborations), Arachne (75) and Puck (73) all in the running.

28. I too was pained by DENY and REFUTE. I’d like to refute the idea that they’re synonyms, but can only deny it. I think the first examples of this usage I heard were from the British PM, sometime in the 80s.

29. “‘It IS the same thing with you,’ said the Hatter”

    and thanks to Eileen and Logodaedalus

30. Tim @ 26:
    Surely “think” should stand? Subjunctive after “lest”!

31. Nothing from the grid critics? How strange when this grid is four hardly connected quaters! What is perhaps most notable is that regular grids based on a blank in row 2 column 2 are normally the most well connected. Whoever designed this needed real talent to go from most connected to least with so few additional blanks.

32. quarters

33. I too missed the rhyming couplets*, and thus disliked the wordy clues (some with very poor surfaces, as noted above) and the “off-centre” definitions.

    *I don’t even have the excuse of doing it online!

34. @Schroduck

    So I wasn’t the only one misled by the Britain of old clue!

    Re. 23: Surely “put away” is synonymous with “ate”?

35. Tim@24

    Completely agree.

    Thanks, Logodaedalus. I really enjoyed this without even noticing the rhyming couplets – very clever.

    Very reluctant to enter ASPIDISTRA until the crossings made it inevitable as I couldn’t see why it was cryptic.

36. I’m another online solver who didn’t see the rhyming couplets, but that is just an observation and not a criticism. My memory of Logodaedalus puzzles is that I find them on the easy side, but this one took me longer than I anticipated. I was put off by the wordiness of the clues, which I now understand was necessary for the rhyming couplets, but during the solve I was consistently thinking there was more going on than there actually was. It took time to get on the same wavelength as the setter but once I did I finished the puzzle without a problem. FIDGET was my LOI after FEATHERS.

37. Late in commenting today, though I solved the puzzle much earlier on. Like others, I appreciated the clue for ‘pandas’, but I’m not sure that it’s completely accurate. I know that it is difficult to get Giant Pandas to breed in captivity, but are they reluctant to breed in their natural, though sadly declining, habitat?
    Also, are other types of panda reluctant to breed in captivity? I have no idea, but I know that there are pandas other than the Giant variety. I’m sure that someone out there can enlighten me.
    I agree that the rhyming couplets were a distraction for the solver rather than a bonus, but at least they reminded me once more of the enormous pleasure derived from tackling Araucaria’s brilliant puzzles.

38. I enjoyed this – the rollicking rhymes were fun and like GC@37 I was reminded by them of the master. The style certainly change one’s expectations of how things will fit together, but I don’t think they make the clues less precise; contra Mr P @16 for example, I think OFFSHOOT clue worked admirably, in the rebus style – it was the OFFSHOOT which said “I’m OFF SHOOT”!

    I do wish the Grauniad would retire grids like this though, where every corner is disconnected from the rest of the puzzle by a single light. It’s more a set of mini-puzzles than a crossword.

39. Is the point perhaps that the rhymes shouldn’t in fact afflict the clues with prolixity? Is it that we can probably say, ‘well anyone could have done that’?

    I dunno.

    And now must go.

40. Well, I solved it (bar samosa). Agree with Eileen’s appraisal. I utterly missed the rhyming couplets (paper version), so no wonder so many surfaces seemed lumpy-clunky. On the other hand, if you do recognise the rhymes, it is easier to discern the definition. On the other, other hand, some surfaces are still pretty obscure. Dislike the grid; 14a not cryptic; scarce an anagrind? Despite reservations, I do admire the skill involved in the compilation.
    Thanks to Eileen & to Logodaedalus (do 18a and 27a imply female?)

41. Well I enjoyed this. I particularly liked the pandas.

    Scarce was a little odd as an anagrind but FIDGET was obviously the answer.

    Of course I didn’t notice the rhyming as I’m an on-liner (I’m fairly sure this didn’t put me at a disadvantage!). Nor did I particularly notice the wordiness of the clues. (Some of our regular setters are often more verbose)

    Thanks to Eileen and Logodaedalus

42. I thought this was an excellent puzzle by any standards, but the extra contrivances to make the rhymes were a minor detraction, for the sake of, well, what exactly?

    I can’t see how ASPIDISTRA is cryptic either: the respectability connotations are general culture now, I’d say.

    But that’s nitpicking.

    Thanks Logodaedalus, Eileen and posters.

43. Oh dear, all that effort from Logodaedalus and most of us missed the rhymes. Well spotted Eileen and one or two others.

44. Actually, Brendan (certainly not that one) I am quite amazed that you found yesterday’s Orlando his worst ever and enjoyed today’s puzzle.

    I really think it was the other way around.
    I must admit, I/we didn’t see the rhyming couplets but I cannot see any justification for this leading to so many silly surfaces and superfluous wording in the clues.

    Giovanna liked the crossword for PANINI alone.
    I can’t agree less, an easy anagram embedded in a non-sensical surface.
    If you want to clue SECRET then what happens in 12ac is just awful (in my opinion). It’s cheap and the surface doesn’t make any sense.
    As George Clements says in his post “reluctant” is absolutely not the appropriate word in the much appreciated (but not by me) clue for PANDAS.

    Also, JERSEY (21d) is very impure. Just think about that.

    Well, it’s the Guardian and I like it.
    Some liked this puzzle but I didn’t.
    I can do much better than this, Mr H.

45. Thanks Eileen. I enjoyed this very much, in a nostalgic sort of way. All through I

46. Whoops, not sure what happened there, start again…

    Thanks Eileen. I enjoyed this very much, in a nostalgic way, and did not find it easy. I have to agree with the criticisms above, especially the wordiness of the clues, but I thought of this as an old fashioned style rather than a fault. It is done deliberately and consistently. I would describe the cluing style here as loose rather than sloppy, not the same thing at all.

    I would not want this every day, but as a one-off it came as nice change from the current trend for very precise and concise clues.

    The only clue that really missed the mark for me was ASPIDISTRA. I can’t see how this is cryptic at all.

47. Clunky to me. “DISALLOWED”= “just like a wrong put right”? ASPIDISTRA was my first guess at 14a, but the rest of the “clue” gave me nothing to work with. 8d was also a bit sad.

    I did like PANDAS and oh. Not much else. “SAMOSA”? Really? “SAMOS [Greek island] + A – ‘three-way design’ referring to the triangular shape of samosas?” That’s not a clue, it’s a waste of time. It’s not even an “answer”, my dear Eileen, it’s just a wild guess as to what the setter intended.

48. I forgot to thank the setter, the blogger, and the rest of you lot.

Comments are closed.