Guardian 26,307 – Imogen

by

Perhaps a controversial theme in this one …

… I questioned in my blog of Brummie’s puzzle last week whether it was fair to expect the average solver to know the names of other Guardian setters, and in the Downs here we have eight of them (highlighted below). The clueing is generally straightforward, though there were a couple that took me a while to parse. 27A, with its unhelpful crossing letters, might have caused trouble to anyone who hadn’t heard of the chain. Despite my reservations, I personally enjoyed it, so thanks to Imogen.

 
 
 
Across
1. POSTWAR Acrimony between bloggers (not involving Hitler)? (7)
Acrimony between bloggers could result in a war of posts..
5. SAMPLE Place kept in identical taste (6)
PL in SAME
9. CHECK OFF Mark down dramatist to speak (5,3)
Homophone of “Chekhov”
10. ACHING Playing for time, Henry is hurt (6)
ACTING with T[ime] replaced by H[enry]
12. PLASTER SAINT In drink (litres!), Daisy’s a hypocrite (7,5)
L + ASTER’S A in PINT. A plaster saint is someone who “hypocritically pretends to be virtuous”
15. IONOSPHERE Poison working at this point? It’s up in the air (10)
POISON* + HERE
17. TIE Draw level shortly (3)
TIE[R]
19. RAG Constable for one needs good cloth (3)
RA (the painter John Constable was one) + G
20. FRACTIONAL Divided into groups to suppress resistance, not 28 (10)
R in FACTIONAL
22. FRANKENSTEIN Plain scientist, not one that Shelley imagined (12)
FRANK (plain) + EINSTEIN less its first I
26. CHINTZ Perhaps boxer’s vulnerable point finally hit at the end — it could be curtains (6)
CHIN + [hi]T + Z (the end)
27. WAGAMAMA In front of a parent, shake chain (8)
WAG A MAMA – Wagamama is a chain of Japanese-style restaurants, based in the UK but also seen elsewhere
28. ENTIRE Not 20 conservationists in the country (6)
NT (National TRust) in EIRE
29. PHYLLIS Girl is stupid to return to pub (7)
P[ublic] H[ouse] + reverse of SILLY
Down
1. PUCK Mischievous type caught in UKIP’s toils — I would leave (4)
C in UKIP* less I
2. SHED Woman would go to pot here (4)
SHE’D – reference to a “potting shed”
3. WAKELESS Not having a wash? So a good night (8)
Double defintion, the “wash” or wake being that made by a boat
4. RUFUS King upset American element, having no Latin (5)
Reverse of SULFUR less L, the King being William II, nicknamed Rufus
6. ACCUSE Charge according to amount employed (6)
ACC + USE (amount employed, I suppose)
7. PHILISTINE No artist makes high table in softwood (10)
HI + LIST (table) in PINE
8. EIGHT BELLS Watch over so many finalists in beauty contest, say (5,5)
Homophone (rather weak, I think) of EIGHT “belles”. EIGHT BELLS indicates the end of a nautical watch
11. METRIC Endless deception covered by Imogen in this system (6)
ME + TRIC[K]
13. MICROFICHE Strange choice firm made for archive medium (10)
(CHOICE FIRM)*
14. ENIGMATIST His aim, setting crackers? (10)
(AIM SETTING)* – almost &list, apart from the “his”
16. HERONS Birds, sound asleep, hard to rouse (6)
SNORE (sound [as if you are] asleep) + H[ard], reversed
18. MILITARY Forces new trial in my case and one is held (8)
I in TRIAL* in MY
21. SKATER Girl cuts sister — she uses sharp blades (6)
KATE in SR
23. TRAMP Vehicle parking for walk (5)
TRAM + P
24. PAUL Rich cloak announced for 1 of 6 church leaders (4)
Homphone of “pall”, and one of six Popes (church leaders) of that name (at first I was trying to find out if St Paul was somehow one of six leaders of the early church)
25. QAOS Socratic method so revolutionary for 1 of 8 here (4)
Q [&] A (the Socratic method of question and answer) + reverse of SO, and this is the last of the eight setters in the puzzle; Qaos and Enigmatist are the only two to be defined as setters: by necessity, as their pseudonyms are not “real words”. In fact Enigmatist is a real word – see Robi’s comment

33 comments on “Guardian 26,307 – Imogen”

  1. I enjoyed most of this puzzle, though I am not keen on the self-referencing theme.
    I had to guess ‘wagamama’ and check on Google as I’d never heard of the restaurant chain. I feel that it’s a bit of a desperation clue given the crossing letters that Imogen had to accommodate.

  2. Thanks Andrew. Got the theme early, and that made things easy for a while. It toughened up nicely towards the end. Last three we the excellent ACHING, ditto 8D and then WAGARAMA: a mountain chain? Give it a go, google it, crikey. Maharaja would have been a fairer option. Still, it was enjoyable, so thanks to Imogen.

  3. I’m afraid I’m in the “anti” camp. I enjoyed most of the crossword, and think that Imogen is a rather good setter, but have always loathed self-referencing puzzles. It’s not big, it’s not clever, and it excludes those who regard the daily puzzle as a pleasant challenge in favour of the obsessed. And, frankly, name-checking your mates is pretty damned naff, as well. I didn’t mind Wagamama (but only because I’ve been there) and rather liked Wakeless.

  4. Thanks to Imogen for the puzzle and Andrew for the blog.

    One small amendment to 12a – it the needs the last two letters from “Daisy’s a” to complete the answer.

    I took some time chewing at why PAUL was one of six, whlle QAOS was one of eight!

    I think all those who object to self-referential puzzles should thank Imogen, because this theme will be off limits to other compilers for some time to come!

  5. Thanks Imogen, clever setting to get the eight themed words in.

    Thanks Andrew – I’m not sure what is wrong with ENIGMATIST as it’s in Collins among others.

    I can’t say that I particularly enjoyed this though. I cheated on QAOS as I didn’t know much about the Socratic method. All the other setters did have usual names so maybe it would have been better to omit QAOS and limit to seven. I’m also another one who can’t see why maharaja couldn’t have been used instead of the trade name.

    I liked EIGHT BELLS although I had to use a wordsearch to get it.

  7. I don’t see a problem with themes of this sort as long as answers are not defined as setters, which QAOS and ENIGMATIST were.

    Only finished about half of this but most of the clues were quite fair, though I don’t think “not involving Hitler” really equates to POST-WAR (it could also define PRE-WAR in that sense).

    WAGAMAMA feels a bit obscure, especially since other words could have fit the checking letters. I’d heard of it but for some reason, I never really expect to see company names in crosswords (unless they’ve become words in their own right, like “hoover”).

  8. I quite enjoyed this. I nearly got stuck on Philistine in spite of having seen the theme almost at once.

  9. Robi: thanks for pointing out that ENIGMATIST is a real word – it’s also in Chambers (and the OED, which has citations from 1621 and 1710), but for some reason I thought I remembered that it wasn’t. So in that case QAOS is the only one of the eight defined as being a setter.

    Another alternative to WAGAMAMA would be KATAKANA (Japanese writing system), though that’s probably more obscure than MAHARAJA. I would normally spell it as “Maharajah” (perhaps influenced by an Indian restaurant of that name across the road from my office…) but Chambers gives both spellings, with the MAHARAJA version first.

  10. My LOI today was 27 and what a weird experience. The words that would fit the crossers didn’t match the clue and I had never heard of the chain (how could I?) so I went back and constructed it from the wordplay and was astonished to see a Japanese word emerge. It means “self-centred”, not chain, but I Googled it and all was revealed. Very odd. Never thought I would see wagamama in a Guardian crossword.

  11. Thanks to Andrew for the blog. You explained several where I had the answer.

    I had thought 27 was going to be a chain of mountains but had to use the cheat button followed by google to understand it.

    I failed to see the theme – perhaps because QAOS was my LOI.

  12. I found this fairly straightforward by Imogen’s standards, and wasn’t expecting to see this many negative comments here – I don’t understand what is wrong or even controversial about a list of Guardian setters in a Guardian crossword. No problems with Wagamama, but we have had one here in Nottingham for at least 15 years. Last in was EIGHT BELLS, and I liked PHYLLIS (though I doubt that there are have been many girls called Phyllis for at least 80 years), HERONS and ENIGMATIST.

    Thanks to Andrew and Imogen

  13. Cryptic crossword folk have enough of a reputation for being up their own arse without this kind of self-referential bollocks.

  15. Thanks for the blog, Andrew – seems you were right about the controversial theme.

    I’m with beery hiker on this – but the Guardian is my paper, so perhaps I would say that, wouldn’t I?

    I really enjoyed solving this: seeing the theme early on, despite the limited number of possible answers, by no means made it a write-in.

    We have a Wagamama here in Leicester, too – but I still didn’t get it! I’d have been better off with RAMAYANA, which has appeared in a Brummie puzzle, I see, and in a Phi epic-poem-themed one.

    I liked PHYLLIS, too – perhaps she could have been incorporated in a clue for 7dn. 😉

    rhotician @14 – I wasn’t too happy with E for Edward yesterday but Henry is different, as it’s an SI unit and fairly common in crosswords.

    Thanks to Imogen for the puzzle.

  17. Quite fun and I enjoyed the theme, being familiar with the Graun’s stable of setters. However, I’ve never heard of WAGAMAMA, although I guessed the right parent fortunately. I had trouble with HERONS as I missed the unusual ROUSE as a reversal indicator. I also thought 17 was a poor clue, but only because I parsed it as LEVEL = TIED, which is virtually the same as the DRAW definition. The actual parse is much better.
    I liked 12, a new term to me, and 22, with its &littish quality.

    Thanks, Imogen and Andrew

  18. Thanks Imogen and Andrew
    I’m in the “anti” camp – this crossword excludes non-regular Guardian solvers, so I don’t think it is a fair test.

    I might be influenced by finding it too difficult, failing on SAMPLE (which I should have got), PLASTER SAINT and WAGAMAMA, neither of which I had heard of.

  19. The Wagamama chain featured some time ago in an important case of trade mark infringement and passing off.But I still did not get it,though I have been retired for 15 yrs.

  20. No need for American in 4d – sulfur with an f is standard here now, as it was some time ago, though not without controversy: http://my.rsc.org/forums/viewtopic/39/2567 . For what it’s worth, I did read once that Sir Humphry Davy would have called aluminium “aluminum”. And you can’t say it changed to fit with all the other metals, because we have platinum and tantalum.

  21. Thanks Andrew and Imogen.

    I enjoyed this puzzle. I’m at a loss as to why people think it’s wrong to use fellow Guardian setters as a theme. Why not?

    muffin @18 I disagree that non-regular Guardian solvers are excluded. I managed to get seven of the eight setters without even realising there was a theme. It was only when I surrendered and cheated on Qaos that the penny dropped re the theme. That proves, to me at least, that non-regular Guardian solvers would not have been hindered.

  22. BillyK @ 21
    Well done – I was reduced to trying to remember setters, then seeing where they would fit!

  23. I enjoyed this although I saw the theme fairly early which made 8 of the clues fairly easy.

    Why shouldn’t solvers know the names of the setters as they are printed at the top of each crossword? I assume that the objection is for solvers who haven’t attempted many Guardian crosswords so haven’t encountered all the setters. (All these setters are current and fairly prolific)

    LOI was wagamama which took a while even though I have visited the restaurant in Manchester several times. This use of “chain” caught me out before in a previous Guardian crossword. Let’s hope it doesn’t a third time!

    Thanks to Andrew and Imogen

  24. muffin @ 22

    I did the same…unfortunately not one of the ones I wrote down turned up in the end…

  25. HKColin @10 reveals the reason for the appearance of the weird wagamama but he doesn’t quite spell it out.

    Self-centred describes the theme. (Sorry if you all realised that. It took me a while to twig).

  26. Although 27ac is clever from a referential perspective it wasn’t easy to get if one has never heard of the chain, which I hadn’t. Under competition conditions I would have gone for “Jaramama” which also fits the wordplay because “wag” didn’t occur to me and “jar” can also mean “shake”. It was only when I discovered it didn’t exist post-solve that I used aids and found WAGAMAMA. Of the setters QAOS was my LOI and it took a while to see.

  27. Thanks all
    Brendan @ 23 proves how obscure the setters are which appear under each puzzle!

  28. Starting off with TRAMP, PUCK and SHED (and finishing with, um, PAUL) the theme was rather a giveaway.
    I have my doubts about whether a theme like this is ‘fair’ but, on the other hand, I can’t really be bothered.

    This was surely one of Imogen’s less fiendish offerings but very enjoyable nonetheless.

    What I especially liked was the fact that the 8 setters are placed symmetrically in the grid. The icing on the cake.

    Thanks Andrew.

  29. It is one thing to clue them for regular folks with these inside jokes a pure bonus to the insiders. But requiring inside knowledge that is true just today, should definitely be off limits.

    The problem with inside jokes is that it turns off all outsiders. If these enigmatists see themselves as artists, such tactics will lower their reach and reduce their audience. Further it makes their works of art ephemeral sand sculptures rather than enduring granite carvings. Would these clues stand the ravages of time? Would they make sense five years from now?

    Now I don’t feel so bad for not being to explain my solutions and not getting three clues.

  30. Thanks Imogen and Andrew

    Late to this, as I refused to give up on finding WAGAMAMA as my final answer … I was originally looking for British retail chains … so was down the right track … the restaurant chain didn’t click until I got WAG and MAMA and the penny dropped. We have them here too – didn’t know they were British based though!

    As a regular Guardian solver, I found the theme quite interesting and got three – PUCK, SHED and QAOS very early on. It still took a while to find PHILISTINE for some reason. Think it was fair enough for the non-Guardianeers as well as has been said, all but QAOS were clued as words in their own right. Although a little obscure, most definitions of Socrates refer to his question-answer method of teaching and it would not have been impossible to build the solution from the cryptic.

  31. I agree with 29 ravilyn although I realise that some love the warm glow of feeling part of something even if the something is actually a load of smug urban bo**ocks that means nothing to anyone who is not in the ‘in crowd’.

  32. difficult one for a French resident (no Japanese chains) and a reader of the Weekly Guardian in which many of these setters don’t appear.

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