Guardian Quiptic 778/Pan

19 comments on “Guardian Quiptic 778/Pan”

1. Thanks Pan and Pierre
   MUCH harder than Rufus in the paper today, with some very nice clues. I particularly liked AMNESIA and DENMARK.

2. Yes, AMNESIA was good. I started off confidently with ELEMENT for 1a, with a mental image of the IDEA-lightbulb (Iodine is an element, isn’t it?) Oh dear.

3. Thanks Pan and Pierre.

   Bit of a curate’s egg – some clues very Quiptic, others (e.g. 5d LOI) quite difficult.

   I liked PUGILIST and HANDRAIL.

4. p.s. and AMNESIA.

5. PITTANCE and AMNESIA were my favourites, for the lovely anagrams.

   1ac struck me as a bit odd – given that the surface refers to light, I would have thought that HALOGEN = “lamp, light bulb” would be the best definition to use. In fact, I’m fairly certain that in the original draft, the clue must have been something like “Light bulb seen in ring of light above head of person with information”, and for whatever reason (imprecision? Quiptic difficulty standards?) the indication was changed to “Iodine, maybe” later.

6. I found this much harder than a lot of recent Quiptics, and it was probably the trickiest since Pan’s previous one. Although I enjoyed the puzzle I’m not sure that it was set at the right level for its target audience, and I think it is surely time that Pan is promoted to the main cryptic. The SENTIMENT/NOISETTE crossers were my last ones in.

7. Thanks Pan and Pierre.

   I also found this much more difficult than the cryptic
   Liked COLLAPSE, PUGILIST and HANDRAIL amongst others

   Gladys @2 iodine belongs to the halogen group of elements.

8. Schroduck @5
   As Cookie @7 says, iodine is a halogen – Group VII in traditional numbering in the Periodic Table. “Halogen lamps” are so-called because they contain iodine (I could explain what it’s doing there, if anyone is inetrested!)

9. 5d ridiculous in a quiptic, bits of this were hard but fair in a Monday puzzle.
   Ok I didn’t spend that long puzzling as I did with Tyrus but 5d especially wouldn’t have been out of place there. Thanks Pan but some of these should be reserved for the guardian proper not this. Ta Pierre see you soon.

10. I found this really difficult, which suggests that either I wasn’t concentrating because I had a busy day ahead and was rushing; or that it was difficult. The grid didn’t help, and there were certainly one or two that made me raise my eyebrows. But it’s the conundrum for setters: what is too hard for a Quiptic? I have just recruited a friend back to the dark arts by introducing her to the Quiptic, so she will be my judge on difficulty for the next few months.

11. I am afraid that I have to disagree with the majority.
    Of course, I can’t deny or ignore other solvers’ experiences with this Pan puzzle. Nor would I like too.
    However, I found the puzzle much easier than e.g. yesterday’s Everyman. And comparing it with Rufus is not really fair as his crossword has a completely different feel to it.

    After seeing everyone’s opinion I ran through the clues again, only to conclude that there was hardly anything outrageous going on here. A lot of charades and envelopes, some anagrams, the odd double definition etc.
    Yes, true, 5d had an extra layer but, let’s face it, it is not that complicated: remove O, then take the anagram.

    When Flashling says “5d ridiculous in a Quiptic” I do not agree.
    Putting one or two more layered clues in a Quiptic helps the beginning solver to become familiar with the ‘next step’. I think a Quiptic should not only be basic but also give a taster of what’s next.
    That said, and I said that before here, for me it is not 100% clear what a Quiptic is (other than being perhaps easy and accessible).
    In my opinion, Pan did a good job today.

    ps, I found 16d (HANDRAIL) actually harder than 5d.

12. Well I found it pretty hard – I spent more time on it than on yer average Guardian cryptic. While I sort of agree with the odd stretch clue in a quiptic, this could be done with easy surrounds so that the pleasure is in the parsing … .

    OTOH, I have great difficulty with the word ‘difficulty’. Rufus for me is regularly harder than other days of the week – though I do lose patience pretty quickly since I can’t find the meat in the clues to make me want to worry them. I don’t think there can be an absolute gauge -it’s a bit like ‘how spicy do you like your curry?’.

13. I like your curry analogy, geof.

14. With respect Sil vdH, I would suggest that you have forgotten what sort of things beginners find difficult. Some of the clues in this were ridiculous for a Quiptic. The top left on the other hand was just about perfect for the beginner, and having started up there, I was itching to come on here and say “At last, a perfectly judged Quiptic”. Alas such hopes were soon dashed as the clues drifted further and further from the Quiptic brief.

    It’s amazing that it seems to be so hard to write an easily accessible cryptic crossword. The answer probably would be to get Rufus to do it…but allow him a maximum 2 DDs and 2 CDs per week!

15. Have I forgotten what sort of things beginners find difficult?
    I hope not but if so, Limeni, then I am really curious which clues you point at when you say “Some of the clues in this were ridiculous for a Quiptic”.
    Could you give two or three examples in this Pan puzzle that fall in that category? And also tell us what you experienced as the (ridiculously) difficult bits?
    Just for a better understanding.

16. Hi, As a relative beginner to cryptics I would like to offer my opinion that this (and Pan’s previous too) was much harder than other quiptics I have attempted. Many of these clues require too much manipulation of the bits and pieces to be considered a “fair” quicky; 16d and 5d being prime examples.

17. Richard, while I respect how you (and others) experienced this puzzle, I still don’t get what you mean by “Many of these clues require too much manipulation of the bits and pieces”.

    In Crosswordland you may expect anagrams, double definitions, the odd cryptic definition, hidden solutions, envelopes, homophones, reversals, charades and more.

    Now, look at the set of clues here.
    Only in four of these clues one has to do more than one thing.

    10ac: reversal + charade
    25ac: anagram as part of an envelope
    2d: reversal as aprt of an envelope
    5d: deletion before taking the anagram

    We had some first/last letter selections (in 6d, 14d and 16d) but they were so well signposted that couldn’t be a cause of too much trouble.

    So, I am still left with the question why apparently many solvers found it so difficult. It just cannot be Pan’s use of devices. In the vast majority of the clues it was one-way traffic.
    There must be another reason that solvers found this hard.
    Has it to do with the surfaces or with the definitions?
    That’s what I find interesting and that’s why I am so curious.
    But I am realistic enough to not expect a proper answer to this question.

18. Sil @17

    As an example of why I found this difficult, look at 10a: Chap turned to bar for drinks producer

    “Chap” could be several different things. Even if you correctly decide that it’s a man’s name, there are still many to choose from – then you reverse it. Then you have to decide what meaning of “bar” to go for, and again “tiller” would come well down any list.

    There might have been complaints about this one in a main crossword.

19. Muffin, yes, you’re right about DISTILLER.
    It is one of the four clues I singled out as being at the more difficult end of this puzzle.
    I see your ‘objections’ but I think that in the world of daily crosswords there would not be many complaints.

    I’m just not sure what a Quiptic is.
    Is it an easy stand-alone genre or a puzzle in which most of it is easy but in which some clues prepare the solver for a higher level?

    In the last few months I have done quite a few daily Quick Cryptics in The Times. Same formula as the Guardian Quiptic. Lots of standard devices and, above all, obvious definitions. However, there’s room for a little bit extra too.
    I think that is what such a crossword should aim for.
    Sometimes they fail to do so, two days ago I couldn’t even finish the so-called easy puzzle.

    I keep thinking why that is.
    I am really interested in why the clues with just one, IMO, ‘straightforward’ device (and there were many of them in this Pan) were apparently so hard for some solvers.
    Despite your post, Muffin, I still don’t know.
    But many thanks for giving your opinion on this.
    I had also hoped for a reaction from Richard and Limeni in particular but alas.

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