Guardian 26,648 by Nutmeg

89 comments on “Guardian 26,648 by Nutmeg”

1. A quicker finish than yesterday but very enjoyable and witty.

   Thanks Nutmeg and PeterO for the blog.

   (Central column is “Bach”, row 2 “Sheep”, row 6 “may”, row 19 “safely”, 24d “graze”. “Schafe können sicher weiden”, Sheep may safely graze, the best known part of J S Bach Cantata No 208)

2. Well spotted, morphiamonet! For me this was one of those puzzles where I could define from key words before fully parsing. I liked ‘in form ants’. DRIFTWOOD was nice, but I had it as ‘import’ – in the sense that it comes to one’s shores – and hence failed to parse properly. A good morning work-out. Thank you PeterO and Nutmeg.

3. It may seem tangential in the extreme, but some sources have Nahum Tate as having died on 12 August 1715 (others say 30 July). “While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks” is attributed to Tate, a former Poet Laureate. Is there a connection with “Sheep May Safely Graze”, I wonder???

4. Thanks Nutmeg and PeterO. This occupied me happily for the first third of the train journey from London to Edinburgh. I particularly liked the misdirection at 1ac and – having lived in Cologne – 12 ac. Of course I completely missed the reference to Bach despite having sung it frequently.

5. Re 12a;
   In Köln, a town of monks and bones,
   And pavement fang’d with murderous stones,
   And rags and hags, and hideous wenches,
   I counted two-and-seventy stenches,
   All well defined, and several stinks!
   Ye nymphs that reign o’er sewers and sinks,
   The River Rhine, it is well known,
   Doth wash your city of Cologne;
   But tell me, nymphs! what power divine
   Shall henceforth wash the river Rhine?

   Samuel Taylor Coleridge

6. Gladys @5 – perhaps that explains the invention of 4711!

7. Using the plural form of a word (knights) for the letter pick of S (ref. 5 ac) appears to be inelegant and an easy way out. Anyone agree?

8. I enjoyed this puzzle, and you can add me to those who think that the “in-form ant” is excellent. I’m another who found the NE the trickiest to crack, and I eventually finished with DONKEYS.

9. Thanks Nutmeg and PeterO.

   I actually found this harder than yesterday’s Cryptic, but most enjoyable. Favourites were DRESSER, RUFFIAN, ROUNDED, DONKEYS and DRIFTWOOD (I like MikeP’s @2 idea for the parsing even though it is not correct).

   morphiamonnet, well spotted.

   MikeP, the words of ‘Sheep may safely graze’ were written by Salomo(n) Franck 1639 – 1725.

10. Gladys @5, thanks for that, I still have a bottle of 4711 an aunt gave me for a birthday when I was a teenager (50 years ago), it has been all around the world but still smells lovely – unfortunately I am one of those people who likes smelling scent but not wearing it.

11. Thanks to PeterO for the blog.

    25a why should ‘stops’ mean insert?

12. A nice Nina element.

    This is good, technique almost on a par with yesterday’s. I liked 1a 12a and 25a.

    Some problems: 5a the def as blogged is odd for ’tilted’; 10a UFFIZI I found very exclusive knowledge, as also RIA in 17a; 22a I don’t favour ‘topless’ like this in across clues; 26a I don’t think it needs ‘one type of’; 3d because it’s one S I think it should be indicated, and 21d has a similar problem in that it could give MAYNMAR just as easily.

    Thanks all
    HH

13. Chas it is to stop as in to plug.

14. By the way, the later manufacturers of 4711 were in Darmstadt , Gut-City, from 1994 – 2006, but are now happily in Aachen, the “watering-place of kings”.

15. Chas @ 11 – I’ve always thought of “X stops Y” in the same way that a cork stops a bottle or a clog stops a pipe – it obstructs it from the inside.

16. Rishi @ 7: I know what you mean, but for me the nice justifies it in this case.

17. Sorry: that should have read ‘nice surface’

18. Thanks to all who explained stops.

19. Is a dresser a cabinet in the UK? In the US it is a chest of drawers and can’t be described as a cabinet.

20. Enjoyed that. I find that Nutmeg is one of those setters whose clues look easier in retrospect. Last in (annoyingly) was DONKEYS. Liked DRESSER, PRESCRIBED and IN FORM ANT. For once I did see some of the Nina, but missed BACH…

    Thanks to Nutmeg and PeterO

21. Since nobody else has questioned it, I did wonder whether the solution to 12 should have been RHEIN (the local spelling)…

22. Why is academic pure? Is this pure as opposed to say applied, as I know plenty of applied scientists in the academic world.

    {Who often look down on the theoreticals, “what do they do all day, just sit around and think?”, to which it is pointed out that the applieds couldn’t do anything unless somebody had thought of it first, and so the argument goes on.}

23. beery hiker @ 21 – Or RHIN, since the clue’s in French…

24. beery hiker @20, in German it is Kölnisch Wasser, but the clue is in French, might as well argue it should be Rhin, however, “eau de Cologne” has come to be used in English for scented toilet water, so RHINE is quite all right.

25. I think the reason I don’t like Rhine is that it is a superfluous Anglicisation of a German word that is pronounced almost identically. Not quite as silly as Bayern Munich admittedly…

26. Valentine @19, that is strange, the OCED gives it the other way round, dresser 1 a kitchen sideboard with shelves above for displaying plates etc. 2 N. Amer. a dressing table or chest of drawers.

27. Pretty straightforward, I thought. RUFFIAN was LOI because I couldn’t parse the gallery part-so thanks to Peter O for that. I liked INFORMANT,ELIXIERS and RHINE.
    A satisfying solve for a sunny morning after the gym.
    Thanks Nutmeg.

28. andyk000 @22 – I think it works if you think about the distinction between pure and applied maths (or science)

29. sorry, Valentine, it is the same, not the other way round!

30. Thanks to Nutmeg and PeterO. I got the solutions fairly quickly but needed PeterO’s help to understand the parsing of ROUNDED, DRESSER (I missed the bald-hair subtraction), ESCAPES, and PHASE IN.

31. beery hiker @25, it is more diplomatic to call it the Rhine, since for much of its course one side is French, the other German.

32. Oh well, I’ve never been a diplomat, and Germany (not to mention the German part of Schweiz) has more of the river than anyone else. Re dressers – most definitions of cabinet seem to include chests of drawers.

33. @Cookie 31

    eh?

    @hedgehoggy

    and where, pray tell, is the country MAYNMAR?

34. Thanks Nutmeg and PeterO

    I enjoyed this. Favourites were the IN FORM ANT and DRIFTWOOD, as I had spent ages trying to find an anagram (“possibly”) of IMPORT DEAL – scuppered when I got the second D crosser.

    The UFFIZI is obviously a gallery, but it actually means “Offices”, as it was the offices of the ruling family in Florence (generally Medicis). There is a long private corridor linking the Uffizi with the Pitti Palace, where they lived.

    The Synod of Whitby decided all sorts of important things for the Western Christian Church, like when Easter should be and how monks should shave their tonsures!

35. Well that’s not really the point is it baerchen. A clue is faulty in my book if it fails to produce the answer correctly and unambiguously. I suppose you agree with those other people who say that checking letters are there to make up for clueing deficiencies. Not for me I am afraid, and I can’t see what’s wrong with expecting clues to be sound and without reliance on something else to validate the answer that’s needed.

    Having said all that I should still remind myself that I really like today’s puzzle, which is mostly good 😀

36. actually @hh – one of the reasons I mentioned RHEIN is that if you accept it as a valid solution, then the clue breaks your rule! As baerchen implies, MAYNMAR cannot be the solution because the definition does not work, so there is no ambiguity!

37. The Synod of Whitby was where the early church in Britain decided whether to follow Roman or Celtic customs – Easter etc were but examples. Had Celtic Christianity won out, we would have become a very different country. Apropos the crossword, very apposite of Nutmeg to choose this particular town when so many others ending in Y are available, Ely being the most important from a religious point of view.

    STILTED / DONKEYS were my last two as well, which seems to have been pretty common. Wish I’d seen the Bach thing, but I haven’t been nina-spotting for ages.

38. @beery hiker & hedgehoggy

    I do agree with BH (your point about RHINE/RHEIN is well made, although the clue is still cute) but I think that on this occasion HH does have a valid point too. I knew how to spell MYANMAR so there was no ambiguity with this clue for me personally. But twice in the not too distant past the solution has been HOUYHNHNMS (the highbrow horses from Gulliver’s Travels) and in both cases the clue was partially an anagram – even with all the crossing letters in place and surety as to what the fodder was, I had no clue how to spell the word correctly without looking it up. So in those cases my only partial knowledge of the definition (I knew what the setter was getting at) was not a help in sorting out the ambiguous wordplay. Going back to MYANMAR, I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to suggest that some solvers might not be 100% sure which ‘A’ to remove until SHANGRI LA comes to the rescue.

    That said, I do think that clues in a crossword should not be taken in isolation – they are not intended to be solved one after the other as a list and only then inserted, so getting helpful crossing letters is part of the solve. In that way, MYANMAR becomes unambiguous once SHANGRI LA is solved, in a way that both iterations of HOUYHNHNMS did not.

39. Cookie @9: sorry, I’ve been out for the day hunting street art. I think you missed my point. I wondered whether Nutmeg had included reference to Bach’s Cantata No. 208 as an oblique reference to the 300th anniversary of Nahum Tate’s passing – shepherds watching their sheep would mean that sheep could safely graze…

40. Paul B on Monday said:
    “Crossing letters are indeed there to aid solving: they are not there to justify ambiguous clueing. I agree that each clue should lead unambiguously to an answer, except in Donk crosswords, where they sometimes unambiguously, er, lead to two answers.”
    I think I agree (except about Donk, of whom I have had no experience).

41. @hedgehoggy 35

    what do you mean, “it’s not really the point”?
    The point is to have an unambiguous definition, in this case COUNTRY, and wordplay leading the solver to an unambiguous solution.
    Your complaint would only hold water if there were a country called MAYNMAR, but since there is not, I suggest you stop chucking rocks at a non-existent target

42. baerchen @33, but the left and right banks of the Rhine are of no diplomatic importance within Germany, 188 kms are shared with France, 150 kms with Switzerland.

43. @Cookie

    if I was baffled before, I am completely bewildered now. I may need to pour myself a glass of vin/wine/Wein and have a little lie down

44. I’m very much of the opinion that if all crossword clues were as grammatically correct as HH wants them to be then crosswords would be easier to solve and a lot less fun.

45. Surely the employment of `Cologne`(English/French) and not the German `Koln’ leads unambiguously to the River RHINE..? It worked for me (with no crossers).

46. OK, baerchen, I had better leave it at that, otherwise I will be going on about the left bank of the Rhine back in history leading up to Napoleon’s Empire etc. etc. and making things worse. A bit early for wine here, shall probably make a cup of tea, although the temperature is over 30°C…

    but first I have to try and clear things up with MikeP, on the other hand perhaps better not…

47. MikeP @39, yes, I did get your point, but thought you might not know who wrote the words to “Sheep may safely graze”, this actually appears to have been combined with “While shepherds watched their flocks” in a piece of music by Keith Christopher.

48. Cookie @46: I’m very easy-going on this. It was just a thought – perhaps just a little too fanciful 🙂

49. @Cookie

    I live 15km from the Rhine/Rhein/Rhin at Breisach/Neuf Brisach and 75km from the river’s border at Basel and cross it frequently. The customs posts have all gone; I don’t even need to slow down – it’s like crossing the Severn. Only the Swiss still have a border checkpoint, because although they are in Schengen they are not in the EU. I haven’t been required to show my passport for years.
    What on earth any of this has to do with diplomatic significance of the river, Napoleon or Nutmeg’s crossword is anybody’s guess. The clue led perfectly to the answer.
    For the record, I’m not drinking this month – I was trying to point out that the same rule applies for the water as for the wine

50. Valentine @19

    You may have a point, although I am no expert in the field. As Cookiw @26 points out, your dresser seems to be what is more commonly called a chest of drawers in the UK. The kitchen furniture may be what Nutmeg had in mind, and is perhaps nearer the mark, but it makes me think of something open-fronted, whereas I picture a cabinet as having doors.

    hedgehoggy @12 etc

    I find that baerchen #33 and 41 has punctured your argument entirely. To add my take, an anagram, such as 23A SHANGRI-LA does not follow unambiguously from ‘liar hangs’; the latter could equally well lead to SRALIHA-GN etc etc, but only one conforms with the definition. I am afraid that your remarks on 21D must be consigned to your all-too-frequent outpourings of drivel.

51. Most commonly in English (?) we come across “Welsh dressers”, which are tall items of (generally) kitchen furniture. The have cabinets and sometimes drawers at the bottom, with shelves above; these are often stacked with plates, decoratively arranged.

    See here

52. “Dresser” is most commonly a “Welsh dresser”. These have cabinets and sometimes drawers below, and shelves above, often used for decoratively stacking plates.

    See here

    P.S. my first go disappeared – apologies if two turn up.

53. …….as they did!

54. PeterO (sorry to be late) I seriously needed a lot of help today – `academic` `slips into` `topless dress` to mention but a few of my incomprehensions. Nutmeg’s intricacies and your blog taught me quite a lot – thanks both.

55. Baerchen @49, I was defending the clue, beery hiker @21 wondered if it should be Rhein. I was saying that it is best for the British to stick diplomatically to the neutral RHINE so as not to ‘offend’ the Germans or the French. I live 10 kms from the Ferney/Geneva border, in the past it was guarded, then virtually unguarded for several years, but now at times there are people on duty; other borders in the country are rarely patrolled.

56. Re the Rhin, I’m almost starting to wish I’d never mentioned it, but I’ve learned a few things today!

57. beey hiker, re your post @25, there’s indeed Bayern Munich …
    … and Prague, Bruges, Antwerp, Brussels, Milan, Venice, Florence, Naples, Athens, Copenhagen, Lisbon, Vienna – the list goes on.

    But the Dutch do the same thing.
    The ‘Rhine’ also flows through the Netherlands: de Rijn.
    And there’s Praag, Keulen, Venetie, Milaan, Napels, Kopenhagen, Lissabon, Wenen, Parijs – this list goes on too!

    So, don’t worry.
    Funny enough, I suggested RHINE and my English crossword partner entered RHEIN …
    By the way, good clue.
    By the way 2, good puzzle.

58. Sil @57
    I’m not clear what’s wrong with Antwerp – isn’t that what it is called in Belgian (Antwerpen in Dutch)? Also the French-speaking Belgians refer to Bruges, although it is Brugge in the local language. (When we travelled by train from “Brussels” to Bruges, the destination indicator in the carriage changed form “Bruges” to “Brugge” as some nondescript but presumably very significant point.)

59. @Sil re Rhinegate #94

    I thought the river which we know as the Rhine was called either the Waal or the Maas in Holland, and that the Rijn is basically a ditch by comparison?
    This one could run and run…

    clue: Kölnisches Wasser? (5) = Rhein
    clue: Eau de Cologne? (5) = Rhine
    is the only way I can see it still; Rhin would have been a plucky contender if the solution had had four letters

60. The Belgians in ‘Brugge’ say ‘Brugge’ and as it is in Flanders (‘Vlaanderen’), it really is like that.
    ‘Bruges’ is Wallonian/French.

    In Belgium ‘Antwerp’ is called ‘Antwerpen’, yep.
    The Wallonians/French call it ‘Anvers’.

    I drove so many times from Utrecht [the same anywhere] to Dunkirk [in English; Duinkerken in Dutch; Dunkerque over there].
    Never seen anything else than Brugge and Antwerpen (and Gent – what the Brits call ‘Ghent’).
    And ‘Brussels’ is either ‘Brussel’ (Flemish/Dutch) or ‘Bruxelles’ (Wallonian/French).

    Sorry but that’s how it is.

61. To confuse the issue further, John of Gaunt was so-called because he was born in Ghent/Gent/Gant!

    Have you not had the destination indicator (Bruges>Brugge) experience?

62. baerchen @59

    De ‘Rijn’ enters Holland at Lobith (in Gelderland, near Kleve), flows past Arnhem and goes on for a long stretch.
    There are several towns/villages associated with the river, e.g. Alphen aan de Rijn (something similar to ‘Stoke on Trent’) or Millingen aan de Rijn.

    The ‘Maas’ is a completely different river.
    It starts in France as ‘Meuse’, goes through Belgium, then enters Holland in Limburg (Maastricht!).
    The ‘Waal’ is a tributary of the Rhine, most prominent in Nijmegen.

63. Don’t forget the river Rhin in Germany that flows into the Elbe…

64. … and as for the Danube/Donau etc etc

65. Is the Danube (etc.) the river that flows through the most different countries? (Discuss!)

66. … and the clue itself didn’t detain me for more than a couple of seconds, and I agree it was a good one. So apologies to Nutmeg for hijacking the blog of such a lovely puzzle

67. It was a write-in for me too, but there was a lingering “could it really be that?” feeling until the crossers confirmed it.

68. This is becoming a rather silly discussion, in my opinion.
    No one would enter ‘Praha’ as the capital of the Czech Republic in an English crossword.
    Ever seen ‘Lisboa’ in an English crossword?

    In the UK it is: Rhine, Danube, Munich, Vienna, Prague and Lisbon.
    And that’s why they appear like that in a crossword.

69. Me @65
    Yes
    http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzrivercountries.htm

70. Seems like a disproportionate number of comments relating to a fine clue, unfairly in my book. And a shame really for such a nice crossword overall. Thanks Nutmeg and PO for the precise blog.

71. Yes, ‘disproportionate’ it is, izzygrandad.
    It is also a fine clue/cd, worth a Rufus.
    Not sure why you think it’s unfair.
    Agree, a nice crossword overall.

    And that’s what it is all about, isn’t it?

72. Thanks Nutmeg and PeterO

    Enjoyable puzzle that was completed over lunch. DENIERS was my last in at 8d – couldn’t parse it and discovered that it was because it should’ve been DONKEYS!! :(. Couldn’t parse SOLID either – which was another tricky cryptic.

    Didn’t go looking for a nina … and would never have understood it even if I had of seen the words. The MAY would have been a saviour with 8d if it had been spotted though.

73. Re #40 and all the rest of it, there is an inherent clue in the word ‘crosswords’, whereof in that type of puzzle words cross with each other. And the more of ’em you get to cross, the easier it is (in principle) to fill the diagram. However, even allowing for the natural assistance the grid provides, I don’t really think we can have one rule for MYANMAR and another for HOUYHNHNMS: and to that extent boring old prickly is right.

    I like the point made about anagrams in general, in that they can lead to any combination of letters in theory, but if the word is one that most would find or deem obscure, then we as solvers stand a poorer chance of getting an answer without all the crossing letters, or even an anagram dictionary.

    Regarding RHINE, agree with Sil @ #68: this IS a daft discussion.

74. I also think the cryptic construction should lead to an unambiguous answer.
    But.
    But the definition is also part of the clue, i.e. plays its part.
    So, while the clue (without the definition) might justify ‘Maynmar’, there is the definition (‘country’) that doesn’t.

    It’s there where PaulB’s right and hedgehoggy goes wrong.
    Well, that’s how I look at it.

75. I found this easier than yesterday’s cryptic, and no less enjoyable. My biggest problems were with the NW, though I’m not sure why in retrospect. My favourites were RETRIEVER, INFORMANT, DRIFTWOOD, ELIXIRS and MYANMAR.

    Thanks to Nutmeg and Peter O.

    Re. MYANMAR and the need for crossing letters to resolve the clue if the solver doesn’t know the answer, in this case I would say that it is a deficiency in the solver’s knowledge, not in the clue itself. The clue is not ambiguous, as there isn’t a second correct solution.

    Although in a cryptic crossword the clues should not require obscure general knowledge, cryptics do still often assume a basic level. No-one here has complained about RHINE requiring solvers to know that it is a river which flows through Cologne. MYANMAR is a little more obscure, but I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to expect solvers to at least know the name of every country even if they don’t know much else about some of them.

76. Any clue is ambiguous if you have to assume zero knowledge in the solver. Where does it stop, do we complain that one shouldn’t have to know that an ant has six feet? The complaint should not be about ambiguity. If there’s a valid complaint, it’s about the level of general knowledge required. For me Myanmar is perfectly fine even though I grew up with Burma. It’s in the news often enough.

    Not that anyone’s reading at this time of night. Happy Perseid shower, everyone.

77. Pasquale 13 August 2015 12d – must have been watching this debate…

78. Well, okay. But I will stick to my own principles if you don’t mind! In an anagram yes I suppose the definition is all you get, the letters are only there really to help a bit in an otherwise GK clue. But where there is proper SI as it is called by Don Manley, the clue in my view should be unambiguous, and the MYANMAR one here is not.

    I would not wish to labour the point with regard to this crossword, which is very good, but since we are talking generally etc.

79. MikeP @77 indeed.

80. HH @ 78. I’m going to have one last try. Given that MYANMAR is the name of a country, and that MAYNMAR isn’t, and indeed isn’t a word, why is 21dn ambiguous? How can it be said to lead to two possible answers?
    I suppose that what you’re saying is that the cryptic part of the clue must lead to one and only one answer. But anagrams can produce more than one answer (indeed more than one real words as well as any number of non-words), so they are obviously ambiguous in themselves. You need the definition part of the clue to select the right answer. What’s wrong with that? And if there’s nothing wrong with that, then what’s wrong with 21dn?

81. True, Hedgehoggy, no doubts about the high quality of this crossword.

    Perhaps, ideally the setter should indeed have indicated which of the As should be removed. So far, you are right. But as others made clear, only one of the two possible answers makes sense. The definition should also be taken into account and not just the wordplay. See Rog’s words @80.

    I am more ‘annoyed’ by homophone/reversal clues in which the indicator is placed in between the two fodders, leading to two possible answers that both make sense. Only the checkers in the grid tell you which one to choose.
    That’s the kind of ambiguity that a setter should avoid.

    But what about the following examples?

    “Overly elaborate raids gone awry (9)” [Mudd, FT, blogged 6 Aug]
    This is clearly: (RAIDS GONE)*
    It gives us: GRANDIOSE but it could also have been ORGANISED (which, for one poster (not me), worked just as well). The wordplay leads to two possible answers, something that can easily happen in an anagram clue. Ambiguous?

    “Relating to drink, I bloat badly – I try avoiding it (8)” (Arachne, Guardian, 11 Aug]
    No problem to see that this is: (I BLOAT)* + [it]RY.
    This was my last entry, having L?B?T?RY and still having to put A,I,O somewhere.
    The wordplay can lead to 6 possibilities of which the ones with L?B?TIRY are unlikely.
    I decided that it had to be either LABITORY or LIBATORY.
    As I’d never heard of such a word, I couldn’t find the solution. So, here the wordplay is not enough and you really need the definition. For me, ultimately a matter of general knowledge (although supported by cryptic wordplay). Satisfactory?

82. But an anagram clue can do no more than that, a container clue will not tell you where to put the contained things. I am saying that where a clue can be ABSOLUTELY accurate it SHOULD be. MYANMAR/MAYNMAR is not.

83. I will probably start repeating things (and Rog @80 was already quite clear).

    There’s wordplay and there’s a definition.
    Hedgehoggy wants the wordplay to lead to a unique answer if that is possible.
    Indeed, in the ‘Myanmar’ clue the setter could have been more precise (indicating which A should be deleted, leading to a unique answer) unlike Arachne in her ‘Libatory’ clue (as this one is anagram based).

    In either of the cases above one is left with more than one possibility based on the wordplay alone.
    It’s there where the definition comes in play and, basically, your general knowledge.
    You know ‘Libatory’ or not, you know ‘Myanmar’ or not.
    Someone who doesn’t know ‘Libatory’ (like me) is stuck but cannot blame the setter.
    Someone who doesn’t know ‘Myanmar’ should still get the right answer as the setter had the option to be more precise.

    According to Hedgehoggy the setter should have chosen this option.
    Strictly speaking, he is probably right but as ‘Myanmar’ is a relatively familiar name most solvers cannot be bothered – they came to the right answer without any problem (using the definition).
    Personally, with a solver’s hat on, I think combining wordplay and definition is fine but I see Hedgehoggy’s point.
    With a setter’s hat on, I would probably have tried to walk Hedgehoggy’s way.
    Nutmeg chose not to do that.

    (Nutmeg and Arachne, both excellent setters)

84. Just popped in to see why a workaday puzzle got >80 comments. Oh – usual.

    If you respond to HH what do you expect.

    BTW SI (apart from being (intentionally – suits some) pretentious) is not the same as wordplay. Wordplay is wordplay – the Crowtherism “subsidiary indication” might also include eg a secondary definition – such as in a DD clue.

    Well that’s unless you want to arbitrarily call one of the defs in a DD wordplay. But then if you’re into the pseudo-rigour of ximeneanism who knows what you might get up to?

    And of course according to Crowther – if you’re not into ximeneanism you’re into “anything goes” – so let it. 🙂

85. I was reading the thread earlier as it had so many comments and thought to myself that it was interesting but really needed an anti-Ximenean rant; glad to see that has been rectified!

86. Somewhat after the fact now, I realise, but since we’re on the subject of 21d anyway, I wonder if anyone else ran into the difficulty I did?

    I saw ‘Old Amerindian’s lost a sheep’ and removed MERINO from OLD AMERINDIAN, leaving the right number of letters. Pretty stumped when I couldn’t make a country out of them, especially as they contain the likely-looking suffixes -LIA, -NIA and -LAND.

87. 14d Would some explain to me how ‘deal’ is WOOD?

88. Kam @87

    No-one else is likely to pick up at this stage, so here goes: Apart from the common word deal (amount, cards, business transaction) there is another etymologically distinct word, which Chambers gives as “a fir or pine board of a given size; soft wood”. Looking back at the blog, I see that I should have said WOOD (‘deal, possibly’) since deal is a particular type of wood.

89. Thanks PeterO

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