Guardian Prize 26,657 by Otterden

38 comments on “Guardian Prize 26,657 by Otterden”

1. Thanks PeeDee. I finished the grid before the Thomases dawned on me and I needed Google to confirm one or two of them. I found there was a Thomas Eddy, an early New York philanthropist so thought that was one of the eight instead of 8d which seemed to me not to need further definition. Nor does 25 I hasten to acknowledge.

2. Thanks PeeDee and thanks Otterden. Enjoyed solving this.

   Got Thomases as theme early on and after Jefferson, Edison and Paine, stopped worrying about their professions.

   Had 9a wrong as ‘undermost’ and wondered why the word play did not match :-(. Needed parsing for ‘joke’.

3. 25d is probably double definition as eddy refers to current in circular motion – as in eddy current .

4. Sorry, I see that you have indicated 25d as double definition .

5. Thanks PeeDee.

   18d Drip (in the sense of weak and ineffectual person) could be an admittedly tenuous synonym for dope.

6. Please ignore my remark @ 1 about 8d. Of course MORE is not defined.

7. Not a lot to say except that it appears to be a Monday! Is Otterden the new Rufus?

   A very easy puzzle with a very easy theme. Nothing much to get excited about either.

   A grave disappointment for a weekend.

   Thanks to PeeDee and Otterden.

8. I enjoyed this – although getting the ‘TANK ENGINE’ as my first entry rather gave the game away!

   Shame Otterden couldn’t find room for the great Thomas Crapper (;+>)

9. mc_r @8

   I must admit to instantly scanning the grid for a possible “Crapper” very early on.

   We have a lot to thank him for. (Cue the puns! 😉 )

10. Thanks Otterden and PeeDee.

    I, being a slow solver, really enjoyed this puzzle. At first, with WOLSEY and STANDARD entered, I thought the theme was going to be cars, and even entered VAGABOND (made by US Frazer automobiles) at 7d, but it would not parse. Then with Moor and Hardy in the grid the penny dropped, confirmed by TANK ENGINE. There is also St Thomas of Antioch and, like Biggles A @1, I also dug out Thomas EDDY.

11. Yes, this was one of Otterden’s better ones. Got the theme quite early from WOLSEY and EDISON, and the rest fell fairly quickly, but I found it quite enjoyable. Didn’t know Mary Eddy but that one had to be right from the crossers.

    Thanks to PeeDee and Otterden

12. Thanks Otterden and PeeDee
    By far the most enjoyable Otterden I’ve done, but a Prize Puzzle? I don’t think so. I agree that the fluctuating possibilities for the theme kept me entertained.

13. I found this relatively easy, particularly once I saw the theme after getting my fourth Thomas (HOBBES). That recognition was delayed because my first was Wolsey, so I was looking for cardinals or statesmen, not thinking of first names.

    A minor niggle is the repetition of less usual word plays (as PeeDee mentioned, the -ON in 24a and 2d, which having seen it in the clue for Edison then made Jefferson easier, and the ‘remove and rearrange’ in 12a and 21a). It is good to have something different, but perhaps not twice in the same puzzle. There are also some clunky surfaces such as 10a. Overall, though, very enjoyable. My favourites were JEFFERSON and EDISON (even with that niggle), MORE, the very topical HARDY and HOBBES for its smooth surface.

    Thanks to Otterden and PeeDee.

14. PeeDee and Simius @5

    For 18a, I don’t have any problem with a dope being a DRIP and “can act as stooge” giving FEED (in a comedy double act). Neither seem at all tenuous to me.

15. I thought this excellent and really enjoyed it which is not always the case with this setter. I agree with every PeeDee says. There are,of course, a great many Thomas’s to choose from and I was disappointed that 4dn wasn’t DORSEY referring either to Tommy- the swing band leader, or Thomas A- the bluesman/gospeller Who composed “Peace in the Valley”. My LOI was GABLE as I was looking for the last Thomas having failed to make the connection with TANK ENGINE.
    But very enjoyable.
    Thanks Otterden.

16. Nice to see the setters’ favourite muse clued without mentioning the word muse too.

17. Thanks Otterden and PeeDee

    I enjoyed all the Thomases, and needed help with the parsing of 12a.

18. I really enjoyed this puzzle and managed to avoid the theme for a long time as I was looking for a more complex connection. I did not find this easy and thought the level was right for a Prize Crossword. There were some lovely surfaces and plenty of misdirection. Favourites were PANICKY, ROD (simple but effective), CRITICISER and HOBBES (very visual clue).

    Many thanks to PeeDee and Otterden.

19. Cookie at 10. Sorry but the old car is a Wolseley.

20. Davy @19, of course! Such a long time ago…

21. Thanks to Otterden and PeeDee. For some reason I had trouble seeing HOBBES (my last in), even with the crossers, and with DRIP FEED was dubious about the “feed,” not the “drip.” Re Tom Paine (13d), he may be a “Founding Father” in the most general sense but is better known as the author of the pamphlet Common Sense (1776) which (according to Wikipedia) “had the largest sale and circulation of any book published in American history” and “as of 2006 … remains the all-time best selling American title.”

22. Thanks Otterden and PeeDee

    Very enjoyable, and 15D brought a wide grin. I didn’t have a problem with 18D but did have a small quibble with 9A. Undercoat goes on second, it’s primer that goes on first (if you’re doing the job properly!).

23. Thanks Otterden and PeeDee

    Enjoyed this one and no real quirky clues as he has done in the past, to make it my favourite puzzle by him. Will be interested to see Eileen’s comments on it.

    Took five of the undefined clues to fall until the THOMAS theme kicked in after I got WOLSEY.

    Wasn’t as narked with the double-up of device types (-ON and subtraction anagram) as I could have been. Had EDISON first and had to work it out from first principles again with JEFFERSON. Didn’t see the second subtraction anagram with SYNDICATE at all and it came here unparsed.

    I think jennyk@14 nails the intent with DRIP FEED and that’s how I had parsed it as well.

    Liked what was going on with both PARANOID and MORE and their cross-references.

    Finished in the SE corner with FRESHLY and FINERY the last couple in.

24. Now that all is said and done, I think it is time for a slightly different view on this puzzle.
    Most of the posters above ‘really enjoyed it’ and I can genuinely see why.
    Nice for Otterden to have so many positive reviews – at last!

    A theme that had its penny-dropping moment after the ‘tank engine’ and ‘Edison’ crossed my way.
    Complaints about the lack of difficulty don’t impress me much – Paul’s crosswords are relatively easy too.

    When a crossword has one or two really stunning clues it can make my day.
    Similarly, when a crossword has too many things that are not really up my street I may get annoyed.

    Otterden is clearly a setter who likes/accepts what I call ‘half definitions’.
    ‘Put on first of all’, ‘is seen amongst the Gods’, ‘once found in Turkey’ – all ‘half definitions’ that need the solution in front of it to really make sense.
    Now that is not a mistake, just a thing that I would try to avoid myself.
    But yes, even Don Manley does it every now and then.
    However, when I see ‘left leg’ = L (in the much loved 23d, nice surface – true) my heart begins to beat faster as that is another thing that is not up my street.
    Not wrong, though (well, in The Times it would be) – just a matter of taste.

    I found the ON device (in 2d and 24ac) rather nice (and its deliberate repetition, too) and a proof of the fact that Otterden really has his imaginative moments.
    But, let’s face it, the execution was really poor.
    In 2d: ‘making two appearances in London’ = ON?
    It does but it’s not well-clued, I’m afraid – could also have been O.
    The same for 24ac: ‘four times in constitional convention’ = ON?
    The letter t is also four times in there as is the letter o.
    I know, some would say “it’s clear what the setter means and it gives you the answer, so what are your objections?”. I would say: “it is quirky clueing” in my book of crosswords. (Sorry Bruce@23)
    The definition in 24d is another example: (just kidding)! = JOKE?
    Otterden could have done much better here.

    PeeDee mentioned already the use of ‘can’ in 18d, I would like to add the use of ‘acting’ in 22d.
    Well, just about justifiable perhaps.

    But where Otterden goes plainly wrong is in 4d (WOLSLEY).
    ‘Yellows all at sea after losing heart’.
    The heart of what? Of ‘Yellows’? Of ‘all’? Of ‘Yellows all’?
    The latter is actually what the clue tells me, deleting the W – the W of ‘wrong’.

    Most of the clues were fine.
    But in a proper crossword most of the clues should be fine anyway.
    I am glad everyone enjoyed this puzzle.
    Ultimately, not my cup of tea though.

25. Sil @24, it’s WOLSEY the cardinal, not ‘Wolsley’ (Wolseley) the car, see Davy @19, apologies, all my fault.

26. Hi Sl,

    I think you are being a bit over-critical of Otterden here. On the style issues that don’t suit your personal taste fair enough, but I don’t really see the things you describe as mistakes.

    “left leg” is L in the same way that “top hat” could be H or “bottom line” could be E. Surely that’s OK?

    Also, for Wolsey why can’t the anagram be “all at sea”? Then it is clear that we are asked for the centre of “yellows”. You seem to have decided the anagram has to be “at sea”, but why?

    Also in speech “Joke!” can be a direct replacement for “Just kidding!”, so that must make it a fair definition. One might say either of these phrases as a follow-up to someone who has completely missed the irony in ones previous remark.

27. Sil I understand that some things “aren’t your cup of tea. You also say that some things are plain wrong.

    What I don’t understand is why?

    For instance you say that the fact that “on” occurs twice in London is spoilt by the fact that “o” does to. Not surprisingly really as so does “n” as they are the constituents of “on”! Why is this wrong? There are millions of wordplays that give the solver more than one possibilty yet you accept these. What’s the differnce?

    You also seem to dislike “left leg” indicating “l”. This is clearly a possibility so what is wrong with it?

    So please can you define your meaning of “well clued”? I have a horrible feeling that it might include a hint of “something that was done before”.

    Ximenes masterpiece “The Art of Crosswords”, (I’d love to read it but I’m not going to spend over £80 for a tatty papaerback), only stated, I believe, what he thought was fair and what was unfair in the practices of his time. I assume this was based on the then current language usage as well as the contemporary setters’ methods.

    The problem here is perhaps language which is an evolving thing. Some of what was acceptable in Ximenes’s time is considered old hat or even wrong nowadays whereas a lot of modern idioms wouldn’t even have been understood then.

    Unfortunately there are no rules in language which ignores the fact that us “old fogies” cry out in pain at some modern usage. (“Good” as an adverb for instance 🙁 ).

    The only real “rule” of language is survival. If a new “usage” survives a generation or two then it’s in the “Usage” books and dictionaries. Surely it has to be the same with crosswords unless we want them to become dinosaurs in some museum.

28. Firstly, I take back my complaint about WOLSEY (4d). I am currently banging my head again a wall, shame on me!
    PeeDee, you’re absolutely right.

    Secondly, when you say: “I don’t really see the things you describe as mistakes”, I can only say: what else apart from 4d did I describe as ‘wrong’?
    Actually, I said that things are not wrong but just devices that I dislike.
    The same I would say to Brendan when he says “You also seem to dislike “left leg” indicating “l”. This is clearly a possibility so what is wrong with it?”.
    Did I say it was wrong?

    E.g. ‘first love’ for L or ‘second opinion’ for P are indeed things that crop up every now and then.
    Many setters (and solvers), however, stay far away from these devices and I am afraid I am in that camp unlike Otterden, apparently.
    The example you mention, PeeDee, ‘top hat’ for H and ‘bottom line’ for E are in the same category.
    I accept them, don’t worry, because there are people who think they are all right but I don’t like them, i.e. would never use them myself.
    And I am not the only one, ever seen Don Manley doing this, or Paul, or Neo/Tees, or Anax, or Alberich/Klingsor (to name a few setters who are more up my street) ?

    Brendan, my main gripe about the ON clues was that the clueing is extremely loose.
    Just ‘making two appearances in London’ is a half-baked way to clue ON. Otterden asks us to find ‘something making two appearances in London’.
    24ac is even worse (in my opinion): ‘four times in constitutional convention’ – does that describe ON?
    In my book, this is so imprecise and iffy that I cannot call this ‘well clued’.
    Brendan, I have no particular definition for ‘well clued’ but the description of the deletion of ON seems to me ‘poor clueing’.

    That said, I also made clear that I liked Otterden’s idea here and that I think he is imaginative at places.
    Was I a bit too harsh on Otterden?
    Don’t know – yes, when I said ‘plain wrong’ of 4d [mea culpa] but other than that?
    His style is ultimately not my cup of tea and I am entitled to express that view, I guess.
    Just like others said ‘they enjoyed it very much’.
    I am clearly in the minority today.
    So be it – live and let live.

29. I am currently banging my head against a wall, shame on me!
    (and it hurts)

30. OK Sil.

    I wasn’t saying that you weren’t entitled to your opinions, of course you are. I was merely asking if you had any more concrete reasons for your dislike rather than your dislike of the cluing style.

    Everyone will have preferences for the styles of certain setters and this is of course perfectly natural. I myself don’t like the styles of a few of the newer setters while everyone else seems to love them.

    I still don’t see a “real” reason for the common dislike of ‘first love’ for L or ‘second opinion’ for P etc. It just seems perfectly fair to the solver and also fairly logical. (Perhaps if someone gifted me a copy of the holy grail “Ximenes on the Art of the Crossword” I would see the light 😉 )

    At least it all leads to a lively discussion which I hope gives nobody any offense. None is intended I assure you.

31. Brendan, I owe you an explanation.
    The reason I don’t like ‘first love’ for L very much is that it should be ‘first of love’, in my opinion.
    I.e. the first letter of the word ‘love’ which is, again in my opinion, not what ‘first love’ tells me.
    My view on this is formed by solving and blogging a lot of crosswords.
    And by listening to what others (often setters) say, also on a personal level (by talking to them at these crossword meetings or by email).
    That said, your crossword history (and that of many other solvers) will exceed mine.

    The Holy Crossword Grail you mentioned is not relevant to me.
    Everything I do in Crosswordland (in fact, in life) is based on intuition.
    On what I think is the right thing to do – which is not necessarily The Right Thing.

    I am afraid that ‘second opinion’ for P will not be accepted in The Times and I assume they’ll have a reason for that, probably similar to mine.
    I can easily name four or five setters who cannot be bothered.
    And, yes, perhaps, why should they?
    It’s just the way they think about what can and what cannot be done in a crossword.
    That is why there is no reason for me to call it ‘wrong’.
    But I do not like it.

    ps, the half-baked clueing of the deletion of ON was my main gripe in this crossword.
    A setter who allows him to do that cannot be found in my Top 20, I am afraid.

32. Nor in mine.

    In fairness, and with or without theme, there are 8 clues here I would probably have let go, just about, but that’s it. This puzzle, it seems, is of extremely limited quality.

33. It would seem that for solvers to enjoy this puzzle it did not need to be of high “quality”. This whole thing smacks very strongly of snobbery to me.

34. I love clues like top hat, bottom line, left leg, and they help to give smooth surfaces. Glad I solve the Guardian puzzles and not the Times ones.

    Thanks again Otterden for a lot of fun.

35. Perhaps it would be better to say ‘in my view’ etc, as I try to do. However this was a terrible puzzle in my view, the person should not be setting really, except in The Guardian. So it is as it should be? 😀

36. Then … “in my view” … I agree with Cookie @34. 🙂

37. Re 34 that is cheap setting. Using the grammatical get-outs is in my view cheating, and the best writers don’t do it.

38. hedgehoggy – I have never been able to understand why there is any big objection is to “top hat”, “sweet heart” etc.

    I presume that the problem is that what I really need is “top OF hat”, one has to mentally expand the phrase to clarify the meaning. But really I don’t want the top of an actual hat, I want “the top of the word hat”. In fact, what I really want is “the top letter of the word hat”. It all seems a bit arbitrary to me where one draws the line.

    How would you explain the objection?

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