Guardian 26,698 / Paul

70 comments on “Guardian 26,698 / Paul”

1. Thanks Paul and Gaufrid
   I enjoyed this more than I normally do Paul puzzles, though it did include his trademark long one soluble from letter count, crossers and definition (I didn’t parse 22,7).

   Favourites were MAH JONGand KING PRAWN.

   Odd that Paul thought it necessary to inlude “old” for the song, but not for the actor! CURATE/CURE IT really doesn’t work for me.

2. …and ROUX as a homophone for RUE could only be “the way for the English trying to speak French” – certainly not for native “French speakers” themselves!

3. Thanks Gaufrid. Breezy, in part because of freebies like 9 and 21 A, and entertaining, from 1D to WRONGUN and the gymnastic 23D. But, unheard of, there was a shocker in 12A – unless the speaker Paul had in mind was Ted Heath.

4. Re 12a surely most of us speak french like a native (of Essex?)

5. I’m not happy about WRONG’UN as (6). It is clearly a contraction of “wrong one”, so (4,2).

   It is noticeable that when Indian cricket commentators are called upon to describe a googly, they can never bring themselves to say “wrong’un” – they always say “wrong one”!

6. Thank you Paul and Gaufrid. Poor Eileen, I wonder what the problem can be?

   A very enjoyable puzzle. MAH-JONG and MAN RAY, among others, were fun.

   HECATE, a ‘Shakespearean’ character? I am a bit at sea there, more likely a Middleton one. Also not sure why ‘men’ is given rather than ‘man’ for KING PAWN.

7. KING and PAWN are two different “men”, Cookie – though “king’s pawn” would be just one.

8. Muffin @5
   I think you meant (7) and (5,2)

   Cookie @6
   Hecate is the chief witch/goddess of witchcraft in Macbeth.

9. muffin @5, WRONG’UN is given as such in the COED, first definition “a person of bad character”, second “Cricket = GOOGLY.” Apostrophes are not taken into account, so a letter count of 7 seems fine.

10. Gaufrid – yes, sorry; Cookie – I know, but it always seems illogical to give two words as one. I know some crosswords just give the total number of letters, and don’t indicate word pattern at all (or perhap just say “two words”).

11. Sorry Gaufrid, we crossed.

    Yes, HECATE is in Macbeth, but most probably inserted at a later date by Thomas Middleton.

12. Cookie, I’ve found that one of the Scottish play’s witches was called Hecate. I agree with Muffin on wrong’un – assume Paul has taken advantage of the convention of ignoring apostrophes in clueing.

13. I think Cookie has a point. Most scholars seem to think she was included at a later date – see here if you’re interested.

    Bubbling with fun. It’s Friday and Paul’s in the Graun…suddenly things seem less bad.

    Nice weekend, all

14. Many thanks, Gaufrid, for stepping in again.

    A twenty-minute visit from an ISP engineer this morning has finally ended a week of utter frustration – hurrah.

    I’m not altogether sorry that I wasn’t able to blog this one, as I didn’t enjoy it much. Most of my reservations have been covered – I don’t usually say much about ‘homophones’ these days but I agree with Limeni @2 re 12ac – and, as for 19dn, words fail me. I’m with muffin re WRONGUN and, less importantly, the cluing of NO JAM was rather loose for this toast lover [unless you count marmalade as jam].

15. William @13, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witch

16. Thanks Paul and Gaufrid. Very enjoyable. My only comment is that to my ear, someone for whom CURATE and CURE IT are not homophones says one of them strangely.

17. muffin @7, of course, KING and PAWN, silly me, thanks.

18. [Eileen re: jam/marmalade this might amuse you.]

19. Cookie @11 and passim.

    Great to have another Middleton aficionado around.

    I splashed out on the vast single volume Collected Works.

    Eileen @14. Welcome back indeed. The world hasn’t been the same without you.

20. Many thanks, muffin – it did! [Thank goodness for ‘the amazing richness of the language’, which makes crosswords the joy that they are.]

21. I never understand some people’s aversion to Paul. I love him for the smooth elegance of some of his clues. 23D for example is a tiny gem.

22. Thanks for blogging, Gaufrid, and welcome back into cyberspace, Eileen.

    CURATE and CURE IT are perfect homophones. What’s the matter with you all? It’s a clergyman CURATE and not what a museum person does. RUE and ROUX, on the other hand … The vowel sounds are the same as in TU and VOUS, and no French person would ever sound those vowels the same.

    Well, at least we’re arguing about homophones this morning rather than the appropriateness or otherwise of clues referencing fellatio.

23. Re 12a

    French she spake, full faire and fetisly
    After the scole of Stratford-atte-Bowe
    For French of Parys was to hir unknowe

    Like a native of Essex,as someone said above.

    Thanks Paul – lots of fun (and now we know what you like on your toast in the morning!)

24. Kathryn’s Dad @22, yes, CURATE and CURE IT are homophones for me too, but they are not given as such in the COED, the ‘a’ being pronounced as the ‘a’ in ‘ago’ (the verb ‘curate’ is given as a perfect homophone).

25. CURATE has a “schwa” as the second syllable, whereas CURE IT has a definite “ee”.

26. …more of an “i” than an “ee”.

27. 12a as regards the homophone seems all right, it refers to English people, for example, speaking French. French people do not ‘speak’ French (parler la langue française) they ‘posses’ it (posséder la langue française), and they certainly do not pronounce ‘rue’ and ROUX in the same way. However, as Gaufrid points out, an indicator seems to be lacking.

28. I agree with all the homophone gripes. I was also puzzled to see ALFRESCO as one word, but no doubt that is how it’s being mashed into English. I still enjoyed this Paul, as I usually do (apart from his puerile, smutty clues).

29. CURE IT might have a definite ‘ee’ sound if you live in Birmingham, muffin. But if you come from the north-east of England, then trust me: CURATE and CURE IT are homophones. Now our Northern Irish and Scottish friends will be wading in to tell us that it is or isn’t a homophone in their accents. And that, dear readers, is the problem with most homophone clues. Tell me which accent to say the two words in and I’ll tell you if it’s a homophone. And don’t say RP or what Chambers gives as the phonetic pronunciation, because dictionaries can’t reflect in any way the pronunciation of people around the country.

30. KD
    It’s not so much the “i” sound in CURE IT, it’s the swallowed “uh” sound in CURATE. It would be a homophone of CURE UT.

31. There were some weak ones today as comments reveal. HECATE is a Greek goddess so I wonder why it had to be defined as a Shaks character. Easier to state the origin. The ON THE END is weak to as it uses THE uncryptically. But AT = ON and FAR SIDE could = END, so I buy it just.

    HH

32. If you google hecate, the Scottish Play ref will probably dominate.

    As for curate/cure it-again -consult an Essex Man.

    I think Paul is a Brighton-dweller.

33. Not Paul at his most difficult or innovative, but still pleasant enough. Took me an annoyingly long time to see MAH-JONG, which I needed for my last in HECATE. Liked SEMI-DETACHED, GARY COOPER and KING PRAWN. ATTAINER was new. I wouldn’t normally comment on homophones, but for me CURATE was too much of a stretch.

    Thanks to Paul and Gaufrid

34. copmus @32
    Did you try that Google? Only one Shakespeare on the first page; the others all the Greek goddess. (Can’t be bothered to go any further!)

35. Without the Shakespeare reference, the surface suggesting Tom Cruise playing Bottom (as well as possessing one) just wouldn’t work.

36. Thanks to Paul and Gaufrid (and welcome back Eileen). I took a while getting the -ery in TURNERY and got EGYPT but was not clear about “ept.” As to HECATE, roughly half of Shakespeare plays were not in print until the First Folio of 1623 (Shakespeare died in 1616) with Macbeth one of them (along with Twelfth Night, The Tempest, As You Like It, etc.). For a revival, someone (e.g., an in-house playwright like John Fletcher) would likely have added new material or otherwise updated the original. The songs in Macbeth are clearly from Middleton’s The Witch, but the figure of Hecate in those two scenes could conceivably have been part of the original from the mid 1600s (though the majority view is otherwise). On this one I’d give Paul the benefit of the doubt.

37. I loved it. Reading through all the comments I think the naysayers are rather missing the point, which is Paul’s sense of humour. Curate is close enough to Cure It that we know we have the correct answer when we get it, which surely is all that matters. And it raises a smile. And you want more? This is all so tribal. I’m firmly in the Paul camp. Now don’t get me going on Rufus. Not exactly the enemy, but if a compiler can put me in a bad mood…

38. For me, CURATE has a schwa, so the homophone doesn’t work for me. However, the intention was clear and I had no problem solving the clue, so it was only a minor niggle. ROUX/rue was also clear, but obviously not a homophone when spoken by “French speakers”. That leaves “speakers” as the indicator, but that would need something more, like “from speakers”, which would spoil the surface. Overall, not a very satisfactory clue, to my mind, but still one which is fairly easy to solve. I’m surprised no-one has mentioned WARE/where yet.

    Having got all that out of the way, I liked this puzzle. My favourites are TURNERY and EGYPT.

    Thanks to Paul and Gaufrid. Welcome back, Eileen.

39. Gladys @35, I agree, I was just having a bit of fun @6, the clue is fine.

40. Fairly easy for a Paul but I spent a long time staring before I got SAXE COBURG AND GOTHA. Yes, the homophones weren’t great but all in all it was an excellent puzzle. Thanks to Paul and Gaufrid.

41. I am a Paul fan,as I have said so often, but I had a few problems with this. I really didn’t like WRONGUN or ROUX and CURATE is surely a little weak to say the least. Nobody pronounces it curit,surely?
    I liked the rest of it though.
    Thanks Paul.

42. For me, ‘curate’ and ‘cure it’ are near-perfect homophones. Closer than ‘ware’ and ‘where’, though I realise I don’t know how they pronounce their town in Hertfordshire – perhaps it doesn’t sound like ‘ware’ as in what you’re selling. ‘Where’ has an aspirated ‘w’ at the beginning so not a homophone at all. Like “whales” and “wales”.

43. I may not know my schwa from my diphthong, but as a Scot who lives in Essex, I can say that curate and cure it are perfectly good homophones for me and my neighbours. Ware and where are not such, in my accent, but they are when said by Essex and Herts habitués. We also part company over whales and Wales.

    Thanks to Gaufrid for the above, and to all 225 contributors without whom I would still be clueless.

44. Alastair @42; round here we say ware for where and wales for whales. No heavy breathing for us!

    As to the puzzle, I thought it was a bit like the Don’s with too much GK and strange words. I did enjoy Paul’s trademark pee though, even if some find it puerile.

45. Another fine puzzle to round off a good week. I winced at the three near-homophones WARE, ROUX and CURATE while I was doing the puzzle and was not surprised to find several comments about them. I have now got used to near-homophones posing as homophones, but I hope the setter is aware that he is using licence. In today’s three examples I’m sure he must have been aware.

    I appreciated Paul’s neat and clever clueing today. The puzzle gave me a good work-out, and I only failed on 1D – I have never heard of Man Ray. That’s one of the reasons I like Guardian crosswords in general, as long as there are not too many ‘unknowns’ in one puzzle. I’m appalled sometimes at my lack of general knowledge!

46. Kathryn’s Dad: “And don’t say RP or what Chambers gives as the phonetic pronunciation, because dictionaries can’t reflect in any way the pronunciation of people around the country.”

    And that’s before you take into account that there are a dozen other countries that have a million or more native speakers of English! Wonder what Jamaicans think of homophone clues…

    Anyway, for me here, CURATE the noun is a perfect homophone for “cure it”. And I say ROUX the same way I say Rue, though I learned to make roux from my Louisiana relatives, and Louisiana is famous for butchering French. As for the third one–the town in Hertfordshire or wherever–I’d never heard of the dang place, so I took Paul’s word for it on that one.

    And anyway, like other people said, if the joke is good, a loose homophone to pull it off can be forgiven.

    As for whether Hecate is Shakespearean or not: She’s in the published version of the play. It makes no difference who put it there. There are many things in most Shakespeare plays that Shakespeare probably didn’t write–people often ignore just how collaborative dramatic art was then. The playscripts reflected the performances as much as the other way around. Consider, for example, that most of the humorous scenes were probably ad-libbed by the actors playing them to suit the audience’s tastes on any given day; and only later was it written down how those scenes were performed. Consider, too, just how different the F1, Q1, and Q2 texts of Hamlet are–just for the strongest example. Most likely, the quartos aren’t faulty, they just reflect performance differences over time. So what does it even mean to ask whether something in a Shakespeare play is “genuine” Shakespeare or not? And more importantly, whyever does it matter?

47. mrpenney @46
    Do you really say CURE ITT rather than CURE UTT for “curate”?

48. Yes.

49. A perfectly good crossword from Paul as ever.

    A lot of moaning about nothing from the usual suspects.

    Firstly although CURATE and CURE IT are as near as dammit a homophone the clue doesn’t claim they actually are one. It just says “Say”. (But I’m not questioning this obsession that some of you have with perfect homophones as you obviously never read what I say 😉 )

    Secoundly the moans about RUE and ROUX are pure pedantry and nonsense. (“No native French speaker would pronounce these two words the same”. That is a very brave statement which I believe is probably untrue!!)

    And finally HECATE. SOED has

    Hecate ?h?k?ti ? noun. l16.
    A hag, a witch.

    Shakes. 1 Hen. VI I speak not to that railing Hecate.
    In Shakes. usually disyllabic ( ?h?k?t).

    So no problem!

    Thanks to Gaufrid and Paul

50. I’m trying to think of any variety of native French speaker who would pronounce rue and roux the same and I really can’t. Two totally different vowels (he said bravely).

51. It’s safe to say that ROUX and RUE are near-homophones, and if you allow a setter the licence to indicate a homphone in his clue when it’s not a “true homophone” (as I would), there is no problem. I think you are speculating, BNTO, when you say “probably untrue” (@49 concerning what a native French speaker would or would not say). I have heard French speakers say, for example, POUBELLE and PUPITRE, or GENOU and INGENU, and the vowels are as distinct as you would wish, just as in ROUX and RUE. I recognise ‘forward’ and ‘back’ vowels when I hear them, but, after all that, I still don’t mind near-homophones posing as homophones on occasion, as I indicated at 45.

52. I have worked in France for 6 months and lived in Germany for 9 years. It’s been my experience that in both these countries the local dialects are pretty varied as in the UK. So much so that certain people are unintelligible to a non-native.

    I have outlined my opinion of “homophones” in clues many times on here so I won’t go into detail. In brief I believe that in many cases the clues that posters on here claim indicate a homophone in fact only indicate a “near homophone”. (“radio”, “heard”, etc )

    However 12A probably does indicate a homophone but only for “French speakers” which is in itself a pretty flexible definition. (I myself am a French speaker, not a good one, but stilla French speaker. 😉 )

53. BNTO
    What’s the point of a “near homophone”? Would you accept a “near anagram”?

    btw I know there are lot of Paul fans. I’m not one, and 22,7 exemplifies what I don’t like about his clues – I would never have solved this from the wordplay, but with the croosers in place it was a write-in from the definition.

54. Thank you, Brendan (@52).
    This is just to say that I understand and appreciate your views on this topic. I’ve had my say and won’t be saying any more on it today.

55. Brendan (not that one), 1 Henry VI, Act 3, scene 2, is thought not to have been written by Shakespeare, as well as many other parts of the play.

56. I have to record my delight at the CHOW CHOW/CIAO CIAO clues. As a rudimentary speaker of Italian, I have always appreciated the double meaning of ‘ciao’.

    I didn’t know that there is an English spelling of ‘ciao’. Is there really?

    I like the joke of the small English girl who responded to the greeting ‘Ciao!’ by saying, “But ‘ciao’ means, ‘goodbye’!”

    “Yes, that’s true. But it also means, ‘hello’.”

    “But ‘ciao’ means, ‘goodbye’!”

    “Yes, it does; but it also means, ‘hello’.”

    “But it means ‘goodbye’!”

    “Yes, you’re right. But the thing is, it ALSO means, ‘hello’.”

    ……

    “‘Ciao’ means…’hello’…”

    “Yes…”

    “…AND, GOODBYE!!!!!”

57. @muffin

    Philistine’s “IN FLAGRANTE DELICTO” from a couple of days ago was a near anagram, and you seemed to get that OK…

58. MarkN @57
    I nearly mentioned that one – though i wasn’t really an anagram, just an inclusion missing a letter.

59. Firstly, I would like to say that I am a great admirer of Paul’s crosswords, unlike Muffin who gave a reason for it @53:
    “I would never have solved this from the wordplay, but with the crossers in place it was a write-in from the definition.”
    Well, it’s all about what you know – 22,7 was the only one we failed on (we guessed Coburg though).
    Never heard of it.
    But agree, not the most enjoyable clue (however, looking back at it, cleverly constructed).

    Lots of homophones today, lots of pros and cons too.
    The only one that really bothered me was ROUX / RUE.
    I thought, for the clue to work it had to be that a Brit pronounces ‘roux’ like the French pronounce ‘rue’ – well, who knows.
    Anthony Lewis, father of the fabulous Crossword Compiler software, also provides us with dictionaries, one of which ‘shows’ pronunciations.
    Now that was a surprise!
    ‘Roux’ should be pronounced as ‘roo’, as expected, but ‘rue’ was also pronounced as ‘roo’.
    If that is what Paul had in mind, then the clue doesn’t work for me, I’m afraid.
    It is unsatisfactory to use a homophone when both words are French anyway.

60. An Italian lady explained to me once that “ciao” is a contraction of “ci vidiamo” that is “we see/(will see) each other”, the present also serving as a future tense. I suppose it’s that grammatical flexibility which affords its two meanings.

    Many thanks one and all.

61. Thanks Paul and Gaufrid

    Started this one late last night and managed to get it out in a couple of hours that included a few drop offs to sleep. I didn’t have problems with the homophones – I don’t think that I’d pronounce CURATE as ‘cure it’, but I certainly knew what JH was getting at – knowing that somewhere, someone may say it like that.

    Did have to look up if TURNERY was a word – and pleased to see that it was. It was my third last one in, followed by AGENCY and the long SAXE-COBURG AND GOTHA last of all.

    Thought that CHOW CHOW was good and liked how it was used to derive the Beatles’ song at 18a. ROUX (however it’s pronounced), ATTAINDER and the US surrealist photographer, MAN RAY were all new to me.

62. Re SAXE COBURG and GOTHA
    I suppose it helps to be British. That’s what our Royal Family was called until we were at war with Germany. George V changed the House name to Windsor in 1917.

63. Muffin @53

    There isn’t a point to a near homophone just as really there isn’t a point to a near anagram. I don’t have to “accept” or not “accept” either of them.

    My point is that the majority of clues which are referred to on here as “homophone types” aren’t clued as such. The indicators “sound like”, “heard”, “overheard”, “on the radio” etc etc atc aren’t necessarily indicators of true homophones. These clues in my opinion are saying that someone could say or broadcast such a thing and this could be misheard as another thing. For this to happen the two words will usually be “near homophones”.

    So my only point is that the criticisms of these clues as not being true homoiphones are flawed. Only my humble opinion of course and naturally the majority of readers on here either don’t understand or choose not to understand. Nobody has ever said your talking b******* but come the next example off they all go again rattling on about words which aren’t homophones of each other when nobody ever claimed they were. 🙂

64. I’ve said it before but I don’t think clues which are four lines long are clever or necessary. Brevity is the etc etc.

65. Surely homophones are words that sound “alike” and not necessarily words that sound “identical”, in which case, all the homophones in the puzzle are absolutely fine.

66. Every time I’ve seen a TV programme involving Michel Roux, narrators, commentators, interviewers etc. always pronounce his name exactly as I would pronounce ‘rue’.

67. Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (no “and”)

68. The duchy and the former royal name is Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (no “and”). And by the way “ou” and “u” are phonemically distinct in French: totally – there is no room for argument. For exampe “sous” means “under” and “sus” means “above”. Roux and rue are homphonic only for English “speakers” of French.

69. coolpress @68
    I was puzzled by the inclusion of the “and” as I only remember hearing of it as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, but this seems to be a fairly autoritative source (Queen Elizabeth II is an honorary member) and it gives both versions:
    Almanach de Saxe Gotha

70. Thanks Gaufrid and Paul.

    I found this a tough but rewarding challenge.

    No problem with any of the homophones and I enjoyed the customarily creative constructions and sideways definitions.

    ATTAINDER was my new word of the day.

    More like this please.

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