Guardian 26,744 / Pasquale

69 comments on “Guardian 26,744 / Pasquale”

1. 12A one thus to become man = 1 has sle to become an isle

2. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen

   There were certainly words that I hadn’t heard of – two of them in 24a! Also TENTAGE and RUNAGATES.

   I wonder is “thus” in 12a is a misprint for “has” perhaps. I didn’t understand BOTTOMLESS PIT either.

   Some odd clues. “Non-Christian” in 5a is unusually generous for Pasquale. 14a is poor with “some” actually in the clue. Is “sophomore” really abbreviated to “soph”? Why “Dead” in 7d?

   Favourite was CAST ADRIFT.

3. I forgot to mention that, originally at least, a trencher isn’t a plate – it was a hunk of stale bread that the food was put on.

4. Re BOTTOMLESS PIT. If you take the last letter off PIT (bottomless) you’re left with PI (very holy)

   Thanks to Eileen and Pasquale

5. Bottomless “pit” would be “pi” or very holy.

6. 9dn I suppose a pit with no bottom would have a big hole in it therefore bottomless and, as we all know,Hell has been described as a BP..

   This proud owner of a bus pass (not used very often due to the complete lack of rural buses) doesn’t get HASSLE either.

   Thanks E & P

7. muffin – your explanation is better!

8. Thanks, Kelvassods @1 – but it still only makes sense to me with muffin’s suggested misprint – it’s ‘thus’ both in the paper and online.

   muffin, ‘soph’ is in Chambers.
   Re BOTTOMLESS PIT: I think when I first solved it, I did think of that – honestly. 😉

9. cholecyst @7
   pommers beat me to it @4!

10. My comment @6. Whoops! I meant a pit with no bottom would have a hole and therefore be holy or maybe holey. I’ll go back to sleep now.

11. pommers @4. Sorry – for some reason your comment arrived after muffin’s.

12. Hi Eileen

    has is already in the answer, so doesn’t need to appear again in the clue. I (thus) has sle to become isle. That’s how I read it anyway….

13. Re 14 across, in for some East Enders = we are ‘ome clothes is

14. I think the hassle over hassle is because the clue is clunky, but it looks as if it’s ‘if I has -sle attached it becomes an island’. Unlikeable, really. But thanks to Pasquale, and, as ever, to Eileen.

15. Lustleighiron @13
    Yes, but wouldn’t it work just as well (and be more elegant) without the “some”? I suppose he was trying not to offend the East Enders who don’t drop their aitches!

16. Maybe the question mark in 5a is because B isn’t the usual abbreviation for bishop (except in the sense that it’s the initial letter) – the OED gives Bp. I was puzzled for a while because I was expecting the more customary RR.

    I always thought that the plural of “mullet” was “mullet”, but apparently not.

    I was puzzled by BOTTOMLESS PIT too. Like cholecyst @6, I justified it to myself on the grounds that it is a very big hole, hence “very holy” – or rather “holey”. But pommers @4 sorted me out.

    I think Kelvassos @1 has the right parse for HASSLE, but it’s still a struggle to get my head round it. I struggled with CAST ADRIFT too, so I guess I’m just not that good at reverse logic.

    I agree with muffin @2 about 14a – I delayed putting it in for quite some time for that reason. And I share the reservations about TRENCHER @3.

    Thanks Pasquale and Eileen and all you helpful commenters.

17. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen.

    New word was RUNAGATES (in my 1964 COED, but not my 1995 edition), but remembered AORIST from Orlando’s puzzle in early February.

    I guess AGATE is a ‘precious material’ for furniture makers who use it for table tops etc.

    14a, I wonder why ‘clothing’ wasn’t used for WEAR instead of ‘clothes’ ?

18. MarionH @16
    I suppose that, as with “a fish, some fishes, lots of fish” we can have “a mullet, some mullets, lots of mullet”.

19. MarionH @, B is used for bishop in chess. COED gives for TRENCHER ‘a wooden or earthenware platter for serving food’.

20. For trencher, see
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trencher_(tableware)
    As it derives from French for “to cut”, its later chnage of meaning to mean a wooden or metal plate is a bit of a misnomer!

21. I had to cheat on 14a precisely because the grammar doesn’t make sense – I had everything else bar BOTTOMLESS PIT (which immediately followed) by then, and had guessed that there was an IS in the middle. Particularly galling as I’m as close to being an East Ender as anyone else on this blog.

22. muffin @20, you can go back to roots with many words without finding sense for present day usage, remember we had TRENCHERMAN for a ‘hearty eater’ recently…

23. Why do people turn so prickly at the sight of Pasquale? I can imagine 12a and 9d being hailed as works of genius if they turned up in the crosswords of other setters, what with their clever constructions.
    Surprised that no-one has mentioned yet that 8d only works if you are doing the crossword facing north.

24. muffin @20 – if the meaning of words had to conform strictly with their origins then much of modern English would be gibberish. What makes trencher special? Trencher now means (among other things) “a plate”. What’s the problem?

25. Thanks cookie @19. I hadn’t thought of the chess bishop, and I’d only come across trencher in its original meaning. And muffin @18, I looked mullet up after I’d finished and yes, apparently mullets is a valid plural.

    As I said a while back, I’m re-learning how to do these after a long hiatus, so all help is gratefully received!

26. I sort of liked the idea for 14 as “we’re ‘ome” clothing “is”. But.. correctly parsed here- slightly clunky surface nonetheless.

27. Thanks Eileen,

    I was waiting for you to parse a fair few and, with the exception of Muffin’s excellent “pi” I have to say I’m still at a loss.

    This is so unDon-ish that I wonder if he was in a rush before Christmas?

    Hey-ho, thanks anyway, Don.

28. [muffin, the French word ‘tranche’ is used for a slice of bread (or ham, or other sliced food). ‘Trancher’ comes from the popular Latin ‘trinicare’, to cut in three, which is not its meaning now in French.]

29. Thanks Pasquale; at least my computer knew the funny words.

    Thanks Eileen; I think Kelvassos @1 & 12 is correct – 1 has SLE seems to make sense. Lustleighiron @13, this would only work if it were we ar ome clothes is, but Eileen’s parsing is correct, I think. Evening wear means evening clothes. Thanks Pommers @4 for parsing BOTTOMLESS PIT. I see AORIST is a classical tense, just right for Eileen but it was all Greek to me!

30. The grammar of the surface of 14a is a reference to the supposed East End habit of saying ‘they is’ etc, surely?

31. Herb @30, that makes sense.

32. This was a struggle for me, and I couldn’t get SOUSAPHONE or WEARISOME. I agree that it wasn’t the greatest Pasquale. AORIST is very esoteric. I like BOTTOMLESS PIT now that muffin has explained it! After all the discussion above, HASSLE still seems pretty mysterious even after Kelvassos @ 1’s elucidation. On the plus side there were some nice surfaces, e.g. for GRANTEE and CAST ADRIFT. Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen as ever.

33. Quite a carelessly-put-together puzzle.

34. I found this one of the Don’s better offerings – maybe I was just on the right wavelength today but I found it fairly straightforward apart from the SE corner, with AORIST last in and least familiar (RUNAGATES was only familiar from a previous crossword – Brendan used it in 26497 last February). Liked WEARISOME, CAST ADRIFT and BOTTOMLESS PIT (which reminded me of Paul’s “min?” from 25408, though I see it was actually more similar to one from Bunthorne 22661 “Pi? Look at it this way; its Hell!”).

    Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen

35. My thanks to all for the feedback, but it certainly wasn’t carelessly put together, I assure you. Anyway that is better than the rude comment on GU where I was told to go away (but in a rather more rude way). No two puzzles from me will ever come out quite the same way, and in any case I cannot expect, nor should expect, to please all the people all the time.

36. I’m not sure whether there are words in this puzzle I’ve never seen before or not. “Tentage” I suppose is a jargony way to say “tents” with more syllables (“We’ll need more tentage for the weekend”). Have I seen that before? who cares? Same with “herbage.”

    I’ve seen aorist and runagates and I guarantee you I’ve never used them.

    Cookie @17 — usually agate is semi-precious, wouldn’t you say?

    Van Winkle @23 — on a map, “north” is toward the top of the page whatever way one is facing.

37. I forgot to mention that I enjoyed this, thanks to both Eileen and Pasquale.

38. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen.

    An enjoyable one for me too.

    Pasquale @ 35, give credit to the denizens of the graun site, where the grossly objectionable comment has been roundly condemned, to the extent that two posters asked for it to be removed, but for some reason known only to themselves the site mods didn’t do it (or hadn’t when I last looked).

    Keep ’em coming, keep ’em varied, and keep on provoking discussion. Very few people, other than those with a blinkered view of crossword ‘grammar’ think that you are careless.

39. Thanks to Pasquale and Eileen. I too struggled with HASSLE, and AORIST was new to me, but I did know Harry LAUDER and did get BOTTOMLESS PIT.

40. Ludicrous

41. Well, I I have read all the explanations for 12ac, but I have little idea what they are saying – can some elucidate in very simple steps? What is all this about SLE anyway, am I missing something obvious.

    I was pleased to get AORIST early on – doing Greek for a year in third form wasn’t a waste of time after all.

42. Oops: I not I I; someone not some

43. Dave @42 –

    The solution is HASSLE, so the solution HAS SLE. If one were thus, then “one” would have SLE. So I (one) has SLE to become ISLE, the Isle of Man for instance.

44. Kelvassos’s parsing of 12A is perfect; I completely understand now. Thanks, Kelvassos!

    For 9D I think the idea is that a bottomless pit would be the ultimate hole, thus “very holy”, though I’m not used to the spelling “holy” (rather than “holey”) in this sense.

45. Valentine @36, yes, I agree that certain qualities of AGATE can qualify as semi-precious gemstones. However, there are precious and semi-precious hardstones (Sotheby’s in London use these terms) for table tops, AGATE and jade, for example, qualify as precious.

46. @realthog
    9d has been correctly parsed above – bottomless pit is pi, a synonym for very holy.

47. Ah, bottomless pi(t), very nice, didn’t see that and was worried about some holy / holey thing going on which would have been uncharacteristic.

    I had no trouble parsing 12a (just like peedee@43) and thought it was a good clue. 26a, I find “maybe” a slightly weak indicator for a reverse clue preferring the “might produce” variants, but hey, still a good clue and anyway a QM was added too. I like the suggestion of clothing (surface wise) for 14a.

    Very enjoyable with some nice surprises,

    thank you Pasquale and Eileen

48. Enjoyed this and found it not too difficult, though failed to fully parse either 12 or 14 across – I think I get them both now. None of the words were new to me (did study Greek for a while at school), though I hadn’t met the abbreviation “soph” before.
    Thanks to Pasquale.

49. I don’t always agree with Eileen but I do on this. SLOG indeed!
    However, with some assistance, I got to the end of this. I did get BOTTOMLESS PIT but only saw why after writing it in and there were some I merely put in from the definition e.g. PRIMACY.
    I did like LAUDER and SOUSAPHONE so not all WEARISOME by any means.
    Thanks Pasquale.

50. Nobody seems to have identified any actual errors in the setting here. The only criticism that didn’t seem to have been completely refuted or withdrawn was that Pasquale had called agate a precious stone, but then I looked at the clue and realised he hadn’t (it just says it’s “precious material” – Cookie has more on this above).

    As well as the usual scrupulousness, I thought there was a lot of fun here. Some surprising reactions, but I suppose we’re all different.

51. Most of the points I raised @2 have been addressed (one way or another), but no-one has explained why the “dead” is there in 7d. The branches that we remove when pruning (cutting back, really – pruning is for the plant’s benefit, cutting back is for ours) aren’t dead.

52. Thanks PeeDee at 43, ie see it now. I was mistakenly thinking that SLE was a word I didn’t know or an abbreviation for something. Not the setter’s finest 30 seconds.

53. @muffin,
    Yes, fair enough, but there is the “maybe?” – it’s just one possible scenario of a branch being removed. (Also the “dead” helps avoid a rather unfortunate medical-looking surface.)

54. Herb @53
    Thanks – not convinced, though. I think, if that’s all there is to it, the wordplay of this clue is probably the weakest of the puzzle.

55. I’m with Herb on this.

    There isn’t actually anything wrong with this puzzle. All the criticisms seem to have been answered satisfactorily as far as I can see. It’s just that the usual suspects don’t seem to like it. (I guess this implies that Don doesn’t choose to attend the “Sloggers and Betters” events 😉 )

    I personally thought his was a decent puzzle from Pasquale who managed to resist putting anything too esoteric in the grid yet again. 🙂

    Muffin

    Dead growth removed maybe? Diversify

    A branch can be removed from a tree for various reasons. One reason is that it is dead but there are others. Hence the maybe, hence the question mark. Where’s the problem.

    Appalling to hear that someone in “the other place” has personally abused Don. But what can one expect from Guardian readers? I personally gave up reading the rag ages ago. I couldn’t decide what was worse, the ridiculous PC articles written by half-wits fresh from college as clickbait or the ludicrous (often obscene) interchanges in the comments about these articles.

    The paper’s standards have certainly plummeted from the great days of the 1970s and 80s!

    Thanks to Eileen and Pasquale,

56. Even after it has been explained again, I still don’t understand 12a.

    I have never heard of aorist (nor for that matter amorist, although I can see the construction). I don’t mind occasional new words but this was a word that I have no wish to clutter my shrinking brain with.

    I have also never come across runagate or tentage.

    Not very satisfying!

57. JohnM @56
    Just the same unknown words as mine. I thought I knew “herbage”, but in fact I was thinking of “herbiage”.

58. Thanks all
    I still do not get 12across despite efforts above.
    Otherwise I enjoyed it.

59. “i’ll send to one in Mantua, where that same banished runagate doth live.” Romeo and Juliet.

60. Brendan @55
    The poster who abused Pasquale is widely disliked on the Guardian site, though he is seldom argued with these days on the policy of ‘don’t feed the troll’.

    To extrapolate from him to the Guardian readership as a whole is pathetic.

    @Pasquale, you actually got off quite lightly – he’s been far more abusive than that. I’m glad you replied to him, though I doubt it will have any effect.

61. As apparently the clue’s biggest fan, let me be the latest to explain 12a …

    Bother = hassle … definition.
    One=I.
    Split “hassle” into two parts – a verb and the letters s-l-e – “has s-l-e”.
    So … “one thus” (as in “one in the manner of the clue’s solution”) becomes … “I has s-l-e” … becomes “Isle”. Of which the Isle of Man is an instance.

    Who’s next?

62. Van Winkle @ 61

    Who’s next? Their best album, though not my favourite. That accolade goes to Sell Out.

    🙂

63. Quadrophenia

64. I don’t think the THUS is particularly informative, but that’s just my opinion.

65. [My Generation reissue, home of Circles]

66. catflat @60

    I would suggest you read my post again.

    You seem to be suggesting that I implied that ALL Guardian readers were moronic abusers! I didn’t!

    All I said that a lot of the articles in the paper are risible and that the “Comments” section for these articles almost always contain abuse. Therefore it is not surprising that this “gene pool” produces an abuser for the crossword setter!

    I actually didn’t extrapolate from one reader to the Guardian readership that was you! I merely suggested that it if lots of other Guardian Comments are littered with personal insults then it’s no surprise that the Comments for the crossword are similarly infected.

    Please explain why this is pathetic.

67. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen

    Enjoyed this, as I do with most of this setter’s work. It took most of today, on and off, to get it done.

    What I particularly like about the Don, is that if he ever does make an error with a clue, he is one of the first on the discussion thread to ‘fess up’! He has no such case to answer for with this puzzle. In fact, 12a is quite brilliant once the logic of it became fully apparent – I had written I HAS SLE but hadn’t joined all of the dots until coming here.

    Always up for learning something new from a puzzle and there usually is with this fellow – today it was Mr LAUDER, Mr SOUSA, AORIST, TENTAGE and HERBAGE.

    Finished down in the SE corner with TENTAGE, GRANTEE and AORIST the last few in.

68. Thanks Pasquale and Eileen.

    Nice to learn a new word – AORIST – in an otherwise reasonably accessible puzzle.

    Now I understand the parsing, HASSLE is clearly top grade.

    Overall, neither brilliant nor dire – just a good workaday puzzle with no distracting theme. So thanks again.

69. I powered through half this puzzle in the Guardian Weekly before foundering on various rocks.
    Thought 1 across had to be BRACING (Being first = B; moving quickly = racing.) That messed up MAGUS and HASSLE. Figured 15 down had to be RENEGADES (never heard of runagates). Or aorist, for that matter.

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