Guardian 26,741 / Crucible

57 comments on “Guardian 26,741 / Crucible”

1. Wikipedia explains Cisalpine Gaul at least as well as I can.

2. Rather unsatisfying with the *meanings/ referents* of the themed clues not being indicated or linked.

3. Thanks to mhl for the blog. You explained several that beat me.

   Typo: in your explanation for 23a you omitted the final word and put only TOGO.

4. I meant to add: why is AHOY a cyclist?

5. Thanks Crucible and mhl. This was a real weekend challenge – more like a Genius than a normal Prize. I spent a long time looking for the eighth “down” island as it didn’t seem to make sense for it to be 5dn itself.

   Cisalpine Gaul was a Roman province on the Italian side of the Alps. I think Asterix came fom Transalpine Gaul.

6. Chas @4, Sir Chris Hoy is a famous English cyclist.
   He won altogether seven Olympic medals.

7. Wrong side of the Roman wall Sil!

8. Thanks mhl. Arduous despite cracking the theme quite soon – due to unfamiliarity, and to faultily retaining ‘confessional’ for 20A which made 12 and 13 near-ungettable. The penny did drop and the Wiki list of islands did come in handy, so it was done, at long last.

9. Re 15D, possibilities seems to be 1. compiler error 2. some odd reversal of SIC=thus in Latin 3. reference to Caesar being in that part of Gaul when he crossed the Rubicon (heading south)

10. Yes, DuncT, did I say ‘English’?
    I am not even sure I should have said ‘British’ instead.
    Things are happening at the other side of The Wall.

11. I enjoy themed puzzles, and enjoyed this one; the lack of definition for the complete themed answers made it particularly challenging (especially, perhaps, for a non-Brit). I do have a couple of questions: Wouldn’t CISALPINE describe only part of Caesar’s Gaul? And, is the Isle of Dogs actually an island? I couldn’t enter DOGS with any confidence because of this doubt.

    I also think the preamble implies strongly that 5d is not one of the eight, but this is a minor quibble.

    Thanks to Crucible and mhl.

12. With reference to 15D: Julius Caesar was for a time governor of Cisalpine Gaul (now northern Italy), a province with the Rubicon river as its southern border. When he crossed the Rubicon with his troops, he was entering Roman home territory, and thus declaring civil war.

13. I didn’t fully understand the special instruction, thinking the “wholly or in part” referred to the whole or part of 5d (so the undefined solutions could be British or islands or both). That left me confused as to whether TOBAGO could count, being a formerly British island. I also didn’t realise that the island could be just part of a solution. Even though I had COLLARBONE and GUNSTOCK which I realised had to be themed, I still couldn’t see why.

    I couldn’t finish the NW, so I eventually decided to leave it until the solution was available. I cheated by getting my DH to look at this blog as soon as it was posted and asking him to help me understand those instructions, and once I did I was able to complete it.

    I too spent some time looking for the 8th ‘down’ island. I think the instructions are badly worded. To say that 8 down solutions involve the solution to 5d when 5d is itself one of the 8 seems strange. To say that 8 of them are undefined and then add that 5d itself is undefined definitely implies that it is additional to those 8.

    This puzzle is very clever but the way the theme was handled, in particular the undefined clues with the islands only part of the solution, was a step too far for me. Combined with the confusing instructions (for me at least), that made it more frustrating than enjoyable. As DuncT wrote @5, it might have been better as a Genius puzzle. I know I’m not ready to tackle those yet.

    Thanks to Crucible and particularly to mhl.

14. Thanks mhl. There is a typo in 23ac – Tobago. Thanks Crucible.

    Didn’t enjoy this much, even after getting 5d….looking for island names..got bored with it.

15. Sil@6 thanks for that as I had completely forgotten that medal-winning cyclist. 🙁

16. Thanks Crucible and mhl

    This took up more of this morning than was planned. A tough assignment which brought about an error with the Isle of DOGS – just didn’t think to be looking for a word with a two-letter heart.

    Liked the idea of the theme, although it didn’t really kick in until I had about half a dozen of these themed clues left – had to then go back looking for all of the parts of the answers to find the islands. Still didn’t spot IONA (in PROFESSIONAL), COLL (in COLLARBONE) and of course DOGS.

    Finished in the bottom left with TOBAGO, COLLARBONE and the erroneous DOGS. This is the sort of puzzle that one used to expect for a Prize – it was a good hard workout.

17. I found this hard and didn’t help myself by being convinced that 16d had to feature MUCK somehow or other and that Caesars Gaul had to refer to something threefold – Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est. I also spent some time trying to work Rip Van Winkle into 9a. The NW corner took the longest and if I’d read the instructions properly and done some counting I wouldn’t have been looking in vain for definitions.

18. The missing eighth reference could well be CI for Channel Islands in 15 down but that’s defined (sort of)

19. Thanks Crucible and mhl
    A crossword in which the meanings of 12 of the solutions is totally irrelevant? Interesting idea, but please don’t do it again.

20. Oh, that was hard work! I normally like my crosswords more straightforward, but – maybe because I had more time than usual – I found this an interesting challenge and enjoyed slogging through it. I guessed 5d once I had SARK, but it wasn’t until I spotted Bute in TRIBUTES that I finally saw what the instructions were getting at; I had spent a bewildered while trying to see PROFESSIONAL itself as an island… I couldn’t parse USING, so thanks, mhl for that and the rest of the blog.. And thanks, Crucible, because I did enjoy it, but, yes, let’s not do that again for a while, eh?

21. Thanks. This was the toughest prize for some time – lacking definitions for the cloaking words definitely added to the challenge, and my last in DOGS took a long time to see. SKERRY is a little dubious as the word means a rocky island or sea stack, so it is not really a name in its own right.

    david @18 – CI cannot be an island name – it is plural and none of the others are abbreviated.

    Thanks to Crucible and mhl

22. Jennyk’s analysis @13 is spot on, in my view. The instructions were loosely worded, and unnecessarily so. And I also agree with muffin @19. Nevertheless, there were some excellent clues among the non-themed ones.

23. A very challenging and entertaining puzzle.

    Although I saw the conceit within 10 minutes it still took me four sittings to complete the grid.

    It did appear at first that all the “Isles” were Scottish but I was convinced that at some stage some others would be included. (After all Scotland does have a lot of islands so it would be logical that they would represent the majority)

    However by the time I came to the last two entries I had become convinced that Crucible had decided to stay “north of the border”. All I had left were 13 & 18A and a count confirmed that these were both undefined as described in the special instructions. Of course these two finally, after an hour, produced the only two non Scottish isles. One in London and one in the Channel Islands.

    I had convinced myself that Crucible had loosely clued 13A and that the “heart” that was missing would not truly be in the middle. So my apologies to Crucible as the heart was truly central but was 2 letters!! (this had actually occurred to me earlier but I couldn’t find the correct “deeds”. What was I “doing”?

    This was lots of fun as when the answers slowly emerged they were obvious. (Good cluing). However I not sure that some people will consider this a kosher cryptic crossword. In the end I have decided it was. Not only that it was worthy of the “Prize” spot.

    As Flavia @1 says the Wiki entry for Cisalpine Gaul makes the clue clear.

    I also think it “traditional” that “Special Instructions” shouldn’t be too clear. That’s part of the fun. We don’t wan’t it on a plate!

    Thanks to mhl and Crucible.

24. Yes, I also think it was a little unfair that themed words could be only part of the undefined solutions.
    For example, we put ROMANISES in for 3d. I concede that ROMANISTS is a (slightly) more common word, but there’s nothing to say which is right.
    Having said that, we enjoyed it and there have been harder Saturday puzzles IMO.

25. There is past form on the “count of undefined” problem. There was a crossword a while back based on “The picture of Dorian Gray” that had the same ambiguity over whether the “theme-giver” was also one of the undefined counting ones, leading to fruitless searches for a minor character to match one of the other solutions.

    See here:
    http://www.fifteensquared.net/2015/10/03/guardian-prize-26687-by-qaos/

26. Mr Beaver @24

    Nothing to say that ROMANISES isn’t right! Surely the fact that it doesn’t parse is a clue? 🙂

27. Thanks Crucible & mhl.

    I’m not a great fan of undefineds. I started thinking 5d was THE WESTERN ISLES, which didn’t help. Finally, in frustration, I put in ROMANIANS for 3d and IONA for 13, neither of which parsed but I assumed there was some hidden meaning, which I couldn’t see.

    BTW, the special instructions now say 7 down clues, not 8.

28. ROMANISES could not be correct because if OMANIS is eliminated, that leaves RES which doesn’t agree with the clue whereas RTS (rights) does.

29. Strange that the special instructions have changed. We had the 8th island as Tory in 8d. Tory is an island off Donegal.
    P.S. We read the blog each weekend and enjoy it – thank you! This is the first time we felt we had to contribute.

30. B(NTO) @23
    There is a difference between “too clear” and “actively misleading”. While my first-mentioned confusion was my own fault, the count problem was more than just a bit of cryptic misdirection. Saying that there are 8 down clues related to 5d with “no further definition” and then adding that “5 down itself is undefined” only makes sense if it is the ninth. “5 down is one of the undefined ones” would have been clearer without giving too much away.

    Also, for 5d to be one of the 8, it must “lack any further definition”. Further than what? It seems that for the other ‘undefined’ clues, “further” means “beyond the link to 5d”, but 5d cannot be linked to itself in the same way, so cannot (or at least should not) be included in that group.

31. Well spotted Robi 27. But now I’m more confused than before since the down solutions contain 8 undefined islands EXCLUDING 5 dn.

    Once I got started, I finished this without too many problems. I thought it was good that you could not just look up a list of geographically British islands (there are 1000s) and find those that fitted the letter counts.

    Thanks Crucible and mhl

32. Comments posted while I was writing that change the situation somewhat. It is interesting that teddemupp @29 found an extra island, but the change in the Special Instructions on the website suggest that was not intentional. Either the editor or Crucible seems to have accepted that they were misleading, though too late for those who paid for the paper version or tried to solve it last Saturday.

33. Very tough puzzle but enjoyable in the end. It took me all week, on and off, to get it down to one answer remaining but I failed on DOGS. I was fixated on Scottish islands and had forgotten that one answer was SARK.
    _O_S gives many possibilities although I did come up with FOOS which is folios heartless but unfortunately it’s
    not a word. I also spent some time trying to fit Rip Van Winkle into 9a. Being a non-believer who just doesn’t get religion, I was annoyed to fall into the confessional trap but finally saw the error of my ways (sinner).

    Lots of good clues of which I ticked DORMOUSE, SKIMPY, TENACITY and SARK.

    Many thanks to Crucible and mhl.

34. Thanks both. Tricky but fun,

    Small error in 20a, should be “PRO (for) instead of CON”

35. I found this to be a delightful challenge, fair clues helping to get the crossers required to confidently enter those without definition.

    I penciled in TRIBUTES on my first pass, leading me to consider a Hunger Games theme for a while before realizing my mistake ( my teenage children have dragged me to see the films). When 5d fell in to place things moved along nicely, but I had to read the special instructions 3 or 4 times before truly grasping how the undefined clues captured the isles.

    My LOI, 2d, sat incomplete for a day and a half before I threw in my best guess (bunged in with-out definition). My luck at finding my guess correct makes me wonder if I have a personal crossword god (who I would name Biwod), though I am embarrassed not to have heard of Sir Chris before.

    Thanks to mhl for providing the parsing and the excellent blog, and to Crucible for the fun.

36. Very tricky. I was tempted by WO(r)KS at 13, but that made no sense at all, so it was a DNF for me.

37. This was hard but I found it really enjoyable. I had to check a lot of the islands of course but this seems to be par for the course with themed puzzles.
    I assumed the missing island to be SOLENT island. Perhaps the setter could tell us?
    Thanks Crucible.

38. Beeryhiker21 A group of islands is not at all inconsistent with the rubric (it refers to “some”), nor is an abbreviation

39. David @38
    I don’t disagree with what you say, but 15d can’t be one of the themed answers as it has a definition.

40. muffin @39 – you are right – it is simply a matter of counting the definitions, as various people were correctly saying on the Guardian comments page last Saturday, and in view of the fact that the Guardian has changed the special instruction, only the 7 down clues can be counted. TORY is a nice coincidence but that one clearly has a definition too…

41. Thanks to Crucible and mhl. This puzzle defeated me, even though I kept returning to it during the week – and not only because of my limited knowledge of island names. By Friday I had fought my way through much of it, except for the NW corner. I got SARK and TRIBUTES early on (and did recognize BUTE) and TOBAGO, although I could not understand why COLLARBONE (I did not know COLL) or why GUNSTOCK (I missed UNST) or why ROMANISTS (I missed MAN) and could not get AHOY (the champion cyclist was unknown to me) and DOGS (the _O_S was not enough for me to get Isle of Dogs, an answer I should have known). In short, the combination of island names and the method of cluing was too much for me.

    Note: The Isle of Dogs is the title of a 1597 lost satirical comedy by Thomas Nashe and Ben Jonson for which Jonson and several others were arrested.

42. re: Isle of Dogs
    Historically, this area of the Stepney Marsh qualified as an island by virtue of the City Canal, which formed a short-cut for sailing vessels not wishing to sail the meander. Most of the canal has now been filled in.

43. Teddemupp @29 has got it. 8d is the offending clue, for which many apologies. I carelessly included a definition which, if removed, makes the original preamble right – 5 across and 8 down isles. Thanks to everyone for persevering, especially mhl.

44. Beery hiker @40 – you are of course right that 8d was clued. We overlooked this detail in our quest to find all the isles 🙂
    Thanks for pointing it out.

45. Hmmm. If Tory is the 8th island, and is off Donegal, doesn’t that make it ROI and therefore not British Isles? I don’t have enough geopolitical knowledge to know.

46. Hi Simon
    “The British Isles” includes Eire and its isles.
    Great Britain – England, Wales and Scotland
    United Kingdom – as above, + Northern Ireland
    British Isles – all the lot!

47. Ah, thanks muffin

    🙂

48. Most people from Ireland will bridle somewhat at the use of the term British Isles to include the landmasses to which muffin @40 refers. Since it may be taken to imply that the islands (including Ireland and its own subsidiary islands) are subservient to Britain.

    Irish people generally prefer terms such as ‘the islands of Britain and Ireland’.

    On the crossword itself, despite finding the theme and (more or less ) ‘getting’ the rubric early on, I failed by a long way to finish this.

    It is a very interesting idea, but seems to me over-complicated (over-clever ?) The hidden islands re clued in the subsidiary part of the clue, so they aren’t really hidden, just apparent when you find them. It would be feasible to solve the entire grid without knowing any of the islands. Then the theme itself is taken from too broad a base – there isn’t a definitive list that anyone could possibly have access to, let alone know – e.g. see the discussion over (Isle of) Dogs which features in Wikipedia under ‘Places which are called islands but are not’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_England#Places_called_.22island.22_or_.22isle.22_which_are_not_islands
    Of course it still fits the rubric, as part of the island of Britain, but then so would Scunthorpe or Kircudbright.

    Likewise Skerry (which I got – through having family living in the town of Skerries in Ireland) – but I cannot fall in with mhl’s examples of Sule Skerry or The Skerries in NI. There is no way these are islands in anyone’s book. So again one has to fall back on the ‘or partially’ part of the rubric, but that again exposes the theme as being just not specific enough.

    So sorry,to dissent from mhl’s verdict, for me this was (very) tough and not especially fair. That isn’t to say I didn’t enjoy large parts of it, even though I came up at least 4 answers short, but the imprecision is frustrating.

49. Eoin @48
    Sorry to offend you Irishmen – but that’s what they are called.

50. 39 and 40 thanks for the egg-sucking lesson. I pointed out in my initial comment that 15 down appeared to be defined.

51. david @50
    …..and your point is?

52. Sorry, a bit rude. What I meant was, why did you suggest that 15d included an island (or group of islands) when you accepted that is was defined, and so couldn’t be an “undefined” clue?

53. david has been recognised over on the graun as a troll

54. This is a bit off the main topic, but I noticed yet again a reference to a ‘crossword editor’ (jennyk @32).

    This must be the millionth such reference in the Guardian section of this website. I made one yesterday, as did others (from memory).

    Is the crossword editor real? Is there an office at Guardian HQ labelled ‘Crossword Editor’ with nobody inside it?

    My attempt at humour has a more serious point. I have just spent a month in Australia and solved The Times crossword, 30 days behind, whenever I had the time, which was about 3 or 4 times a week. What was very noticeable in those crosswords was the almost complete lack of typos and other silly errors in clues. I can remember just one word that was ‘mis-spelled’ (it was singular and should have been plural or vice versa – I can’t remember which). Incidentally, the general degree of difficulty was the same as the Guardian’s, in my estimation, although there was not as much creativity, humour or use of themes, making them generally less interesting.

    There was other evidence of what I might call quality control over those Times crosswords, namely, a greater precision in clueing than I have seen in the output of some Guardian setters, especially with regard to extraneous words and vague references (the part-word LOA was clued as ‘a lot of earth’ recently in the Guardian).

    What I am getting at, of course, is that there appears to be an active crossword editor at The Times who has set ground rules for acceptable crosswords from their pool of setters.

    I was under the impression that the same setters write crosswords for different papers. I am intrigued to know if there is anyone out there with inside knowledge who can say whether

    (a) there are different (more strict or more lax) rules for crosswords in different papers;

    (b) there actually is an active crossword editor (not just a postholder) at the Guardian, The Times, …;

    The Guardian seems to need an active crossword editor, judging by how often contributors like me make this point in passing. (It may not be a million, but I think it is a lot.)

    (Incidentally, one snag with publishing puzzles 30 days late is that topical references sometimes don’t make it. A clue containing the word ‘today’ as the definition had the answer BANK HOLIDAY. It wasn’t a bank holiday on the day I solved it!)

55. Thanks Crucible and mhl.

    Took a while before I finally twigged what was going on and shared your counting issue – 5dn must be one of the 8.

    Last of the Isles was DOGS.

    Where do I work? Canary Wharf – Doh!

    Tough for non-residents.

56. I didn’t like the special instructions – for me (as with jennyk @30)”lack further definition” implies that there is some definition at least. Some clues had the theme as definition. Others none.

    I don’t like the term “British Isles”. according to the Guardian’s own style guide:

    “British Isles:
    A geographical term taken to mean Great Britain, Ireland and some or all of the adjacent islands such as Orkney, Shetland and the Isle of Man. The phrase is best avoided, given its (understandable) unpopularity in the Irish Republic. Alternatives adopted by some publications are British and Irish Isles or simply Britain and Ireland”

    It’s a bit like calling the Iberian Peninsula, the Spanish Peninsula or the Olympic team of the UK of GB & NI, team GB

    While I get used to homophones not working in my accent (Wales = whales; beater = beta etc.) I found the British Isles thing a bit too much.

57. Alan Browne @54

    I have often made reference to our “illustrious ed”

    He must exist as the website gives us an email address for him.

    Often setters have posted on here saying how “Hugh” has discussed clues from their submitted puzzles and suggested changes.

    The Guardian tells us here that Hugh Stephenson is the crossword editor of the Guardian but doesn’t tell us much else.

    Is the post paid? If so what is the remit of the holder?

    The recent year or so seems to exhibit random choice of puzzles regardless of difficulty and lots of published errors from typos to complete howlers in clues.

    The Guardian needs to review this.

Comments are closed.