Guardian Cryptic 26888 Nutmeg

71 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 26888 Nutmeg”

1. Thanks Nutmeg and scchua

   I thought the parsing of 10 was more straightforward, being a reversal of MURDER and (m)ANS.

2. A little easier than some of Nutmeg’s recent offerings, but still full of the usual elegant misdirection. Most of the trickier ones were in the bottom half, but STEM was last in – spent far too look looking for a reversal.

   Thanks to Nutmeg and scchua

3. PS I think Simon is right on 10a

4. Smooth puzzle – but I made fairly hard work of it.

   I was hoping to find an explanation for why STET meant back support as well as keep – but not to be – I’ll buy STEM as a much better answer. Not sure what a T4TT acronym would be for that – not so much a DNF – more a FBFIU – pr fubfeeyou – you have to be able to say these things out loud.

   27a I figured what it was driving at but I didn’t know Destry – that guess worked OK.

   Thanks both

5. I liked it all except the sexist 4a. I believe Nutmeg’s female, but still this is a calumny against old women. Most of the fusspots I know are men. Or under ten.

6. Oops, meant 5a

7. Agree with your parsing, Simon S@1. That’s how I saw it.

   I liked this and it stretched me, but try as I might, I could not solve 11a24d SPECTACLED BEAR or 27a DESTROY.

   I “bunged in” (is that right?) 9a RUN-IN even though I did not get the “UP” bit. I also put in BILLINGSGATE 14a which rang a vague bell, but did not get the market reference, being unfamiliar with London, but guessed there was some sort of link to Watergate. 22a BRICKLAYER went in easily but I had no idea about the “course” reference. Also filled in 1d PHRASE without really hearing the homophone. In addition, I got REPATRIATE without really knowing why (until I came here).

   So, many thanks to Scchua for such a helpful blog (like many of the punters out here in cryptic crossword land, I see the whole exercise as a learning opportunity – not a win or lose situation – and I learned a lot today).

   Small pleasures included solving 13d ASTROLOGER and 16d SCURRIED.

   Thanks to Nutmeg for the challenge.

8. Thanks for blog-the parsing of 11/4 is simpler than I imagined.

   As for 29-never herd of Destry-and screen did look rather like display-so put that in for the time being until 11/4 came up-so that led me to change 27.

   The other talking point is whether the rabbit family are rodents- I think they used to be classified as such vbut not any more- a bit like Finland and Scandinavia.

   But overall, thoroughly enjoyed this puzzle

9. @#5 I presume that’s intended as a humorous parody – but just in case:

   http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/old-woman

10. I also parsed 10a in the same way as Simon@1 and beery hiker@3
    New word for me was TABULAR (for 18a)
    My favourites were REPATRIATE, DESTROY, SPECTACLED BEAR (LOI)
    I needed help to parse 7d, 17d, 21a.

    Thanks scchua and Nutmeg.

11. Simon et al, you’re right about 10across. I somehow got fixated on finding a man’s name, interpreting the “‘s” as the possessive form of “man” with regard to “heading” (that works too doesn’t it?). Blog corrected.

    copmus@8, re rabbits and rodents, they were and then they were not classified in the same order, and the latest, based on DNA, suggests that they do share a common lineage. Thus I stopped short of equating rabbits with rodents in my explanation.

12. Thank you Nutmeg and scchua.

    I enjoyed this puzzle, even though I kept trying to fit COBAYE into CONSTABULARY before realising it was French for a guinea pig. Also failed to parse DESTROY never having heard of Tom DESTRY. Then lost more time trying to fit HARBINGER into 13d, well, a HARd BINGER goes around the public houses, doesn’t he…

    BILLINGSGATE, SNARE DRUM and SPECTACLED BEAR were my favourites.

13. JollySwagman@9 Your assumption is incorrect. Sure it’s a dictionary definition, but should the Guardian crossword be perpetuating sexist language?

14. Mother’s son @13 – surely a female setter should be allowed to decide that for herself – there can’t be many nice ways to clue a pejorative term like FUSSPOT, and there can’t be many alternative words that fit the crossers. If it had been Paul that had clued it that way I would have had more sympathy…

15. I don’t agree. Oppressed people may use the language of oppression and it still serves to oppress. Things get complicated when a word is “reclaimed” like “nigger” or “queer” but I don’t think anyone’s reclaimed “old woman” yet.

    “Perfectionist” would work fine, wouldn’t it?

    What would Arachne do?

16. “Sexist old woman’s predicament on following us.”

17. Bravo mother’s son @13. Sexist language is sexist language whatever the gender of the originator. BTW, I find it kind of sad that so many contributors to this site think it important to show that they know about the setters and their lives. Sky falls in!

18. Yes, that is a sexist usage, and somewhat misogynistic, as it implies that all old women are fusspots.

    A very good puzzle, nonetheless.

19. Rabbits are not rodents. They are Lagomorpha . All mammals share a common lineage

20. Another enjoyable challenge. The bottom half was harder , but we DID remember Destry (though we were just born in 1939)We failed to parse 11 (spectacled bear) and 3 (repatriate) . Lots of favourites Thanks nutmeg and scchua

21. Thanks to Nutmeg and scchua. I too remembered the Destry movie and did know BILLINGSGATE from visits to London but needed help parsing BRICKLAYER. Last in was RAM. Very enjoyable.

22. Thanks, scchua, for the illustration of the answer to 11, 24. I’d never heard of the beast. About to google it for more information.

23. That’s the sort of thing a Big Girl’s Blouse might say.

24. Allegedly

25. Mike Ashton@13, it’s not just rabbits and rodents are mammals. There’s a closer common lineage cf. under Biology – Evolution here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit, as I mentioned @11.

26. Nice puzzle, good surfaces, not too difficult and an enjoyable solve.

    Apropos FUSSPOT, I did raise an eye, even knowing the setter was a woman. I’m not sure though, as Paul B implies above, that hence all old women are fusspots, but it does suggest that all fusspots are old women, and heaven knows I’ve met some who are neither old nor female.

27. I thought FUSSPOT and old woman were synonyms, Collins agrees, nothing to do with the setter’s clueing.

28. First class crossword. Many thanks Nutmeg.

    I think we should evaluate clues in terms of their fairness to the solver rather than any politically incorrectness.

    I would hate to be a crossword compiler these days as people have become so “picky”.

29. Isn’t it sexist of some of the contributors here to assume that an ‘old woman’ is female? Most of the old women I know are men. I like Nutmeg’s joke.

30. Thanks all
    Favourite was 25 across, superb definition.

    I couldn’t parse phrase so left it out,also couldn’t complete repatriate but wrote it in.
    Last in was stem, also looked for reversal!

31. Clearly I am a 5a as I am being picky about this clue. But surely we can evaluate clues for their fairness to the solver AND their political correcetness and for many other qualities besides.

32. Thanks Nutmeg and scchua

    Although normally I don’t like clues where you have to guess the answer then parse, but in fact those of that type in this puzzle were all very enjoyable, as the parsings weren’t that extreme – ANIMATES is a good example. Favourites were BRICKLAYER and IN THE CLUB.

    I got DESTROY without any problem, but it was a bit general knoweldgy – though the film is frequently shown on TV and is well worth a watch (Marlene Dietrich sings “See what the boys in the back room will have”).

    Rabbits aren’t rodents, as others have mentioned; no-one has mentioned the more interesting alternative for cony, which, biblically, are hyraxes; these are anatomically more closely similar to elephants and sea cows than they are to rodents!

33. In fact, shouldn’t we also be accusing the setter of ageism, OLD?! ? (No I’m not serious about it)

34. As usual with this setter I enjoyed this puzzle very much – lovely smooth surfaces & some clever misdirection. Call me insensitive if you like, but I’m an old woman (literally!) and had no problem with 5a. Indeed, I’ve only heard the term used pejoratively to describe a male. (I hasten to add that I’ve never used it that way myself)!

    Thank you Nutmeg & scchua.

35. Clearly “old woman” has been synonymous with “fusspot”. But shouldn’t we put that out to grass now, like “working like a black”, or “mean as a Jew”? If it’s an effort to change how we think about such things, then so much the better.

36. JuneG @34
    Yes – “He’s such a fusspot” = “He’s such an old woman”. However, is this still a sexist comment?

37. Quite a workout for me today. I started Arachne’s Wednesday puzzle just after lunch today-it,the puzzle,was excellent- and then embarked on this which was also pretty good. The only one I didn’t like was RUN UP but I really liked ANIMATES,DESTROY, and BILLINGSGATE and quite a few more. And I don’t see a problem with FUSSPOT. LOI was RAM which took me far too long.
    Thanks Nutmeg and belatedly to Arachne.

38. Muffin @36: yes it is sexist, hence my never using the expression.

39. Thanks Nutmeg and scchua

    Found this on the more gentler side of this setter’s ‘difficulty spectrum’, getting it finished across a few short sessions during the day.

    Like some others, I didn’t know the definition of ‘course’ that means a layer of bricks – but the answer was clear enough. Also did not know the SPECTACLED BEAR, but again it was well clued. Destry Rides Again hasn’t ever hit my play list and I was only able to find it by Googling DESTRY and hoping for the best.

    Finished in the left hand side with a couple up the top – RUN UP (which I wasn’t keen on the word play part) and PHRASE (which took longer than it should have) and a couple down the bottom – ANIMATES (which was clever) and RAM (where I needed both the R and the M to get what then was quite a simple clue).

40. Tricky balance isn’t it? To reflect usage or to influence it. Arguably the responsibilities of puzzle setting vs. news reporting and opinion writing differ.

41. Re whether it’s ok for crosswords to include sexist/ageist clues (ie should setters reflect usage, or occasionally be a bit of a fusspot about which ones they’ll use): I wonder if those saying it’s ok would feel the same if the Guardian used racist language in the crossword?

    Personally, I recognise that old woman and fusspot might be used as synonyms, but only because of sexism and ageism in the first place. I’d prefer if perpetuating it were avoided.

42. I’m an old woman but I’m not a fusspot. I think that means it’s not a synonym. I must confess I did blink when I saw the clue and felt a bit insulted, but I’ve become so accustomed to casual sexism and ageism during my long life that I didn’t worry too much about it. But yes JuneG you’re quite right, these expressions should be phased out wherever possible if only because they can perpetuate bullying attitudes towards elderly females.

43. Meg @42, as far as I remember, the term “old woman” was only ever used to “bully” men!

    This argument is stupid, and as for “Mother’s son”, I at first assumed he was a troll, how to address him? “Mummy’s boy”?

44. Note, “my old woman” and “my old man” are/were terms of endearment.

45. All right Cookie, I didn’t express myself quite clearly enough. I wasn’t saying the term old woman was offensive and bullying, how could it be. I was referring to the use of it as an insult towards a man. Anyway, as you think it’s a stupid argument I suggest we put it to bed, which is where I’m headed right now.

46. re 18a, as a biologist I am not happy with Coney being defined as a rodent. A rabbit may be related to rodents but it is not a rodent – that’s the way science works. There is nothing in the clue to indicate ‘like’ or ‘related to’ and this seems to me to be simply a setting error.

47. Apologies for coming late to the party. Just to remind people that the Guardian crossword is officially a politically correct crossword – see @42 on the General Discussions page.
    Unless someone can demonstrate how calling anybody “an old woman” is intended to convey an appreciation of the wisdom brought by age and the insights granted to the female gender rather than a defective character, then the term is both ageist and sexist.

48. Thanks to both. Funny how a crossword, that was quite hard in the evening, sitting with the television on and a glass of wine at one’s side, comes together much more easily in the morning with no distractions.

49. Charles @46
    Thanks for your clarity on the point about the coney. I was uneasy about it all along, thinking this was an error, and you have given an expert view that was needed.
    I have never seen coney spelled ‘cony’, by the way, which is why I couldn’t parse the clue. I only saw TABULAR, which made soling it easy enough.

50. Van Winkle @47, what about “old girl” and “old boy” and, for that matter, what about “old man”. FUSSPOT might be synonymous with the term “old woman”, but not all old women are fusspots. People who react against the “term” must be prejudiced, why should an “old woman” be assumed to have a defective character? There is nothing wrong in being a fusspot. I am an old woman and have no objection to being so described.

51. @Cookie #59

    That’s right. There’s rather a lot of fusspotophobia going on here under the guise if political correctness.

    Some of my best friends are fusspots.

52. Cookie @50 – because OLD WOMAN = FUSSPOT would only work if the accused is either not old or not a woman, but on the presumption that someone is showing characteristics that can be expected of someone who is old and a woman. The equivalence is derogatory to old women who are not fusspots. Definitely ageist and sexist, but stopping somewhat short of a hanging offence.

53. There are also good characteristics shown by old women, it is you who are being ageist and sexist; I suppose you have, or had, a nagging wife, better go back to sleep.

54. Cookie – third time lucky. I am arguing that it is wrong to assign any characteristic as being generally distinctive of somebody who is old, a woman or both. I am not saying that old women have bad characteristics. But if somebody were to call someone an old woman as a criticism, then they would do so on a presumption that old women are characteristically fusspots. Which they are not.
    Not sure what a wife has to do with it, nagging or otherwise.

55. I too had problem with rabbit as a rodent

    I was working on Cavy aka Guinea Pig.

    Perhaps Nutmeg could enlighten us?

56. Van Winkle. At risk of being inflammatory I challenge you to solve 5d in today’s easy crossword without laughing.

57. Van Winkle @54, I was just thinking of Rip’s nagging wife, I guess such a wife would make one prejudiced…

58. The subtleties missed by the Philistines, I see! Old woman = fusspot is sexist, old woman/ old man as spouse isn’t, although I don’t particularly like it. ‘Er indoors springs to mind, which is also disrespectful.

59. But I’m not being prejudiced. I am being disappointed by casual sexism and ageism. Perhaps Jolly Swagman would like to return and call me an old woman to finish the argument.

60. Van Winkle @59 Instead let me call you a hero for persevering, and for explaining the problem so much more cogently than I was able to.

61. Enough! I don’t want to have to close this post to prevent further off-topic comments. If a phrase that has, according to my research, been in use for three hundred years then why shouldn’t it be acceptable in a cryptic puzzle, even in these supposedly politically correct days?

62. Well said, Sir Gaufrid!
    Hadn’t intended to comment until I read all the irrelevant “PC” logorrhoea – and then the cooling sense of our indomitable leader!
    Good crossword – took longer than the Arachne (almost half an hour I think – though I was listening to the radio – well that’s my excuse!)
    Thanks all.

63. Gaufrid @61 I am surprised that the ethics of a clue are any more off topic than the aesthetics. I don’t remember anyone getting an official rebuke for saying they found the GAS CHAMBER clue by Philistine on May 13th distasteful.

    What I don’t find surprising, alas, is that many are so attached to language that demeans women.

64. Mother’s son @63
    I have no problem with ethics being discussed, within reason. The difference between this post and the one you have cited, and the reason why I stepped in, is that in the latter only just over 15% of the comments were solely related to 13dn, with a further 10% having a passing reference to it.

    In this post, over 60% of the the comments, up to the time I said ‘enough’, were solely or mainly about 5ac which I didn’t consider to be reasonable, particularly as it had become clear that those with opposing views were not going to change their opinion and therefore further debate would be futile.

65. But you said the comments (about sexism re 5A) are ‘off-topic’. That’s what’s annoyed MS, it seems. Your addendum about the debate having become ‘futile’ explores a slightly different point.

66. Paul B @65, if women in the past had not been “fusspots” the whole home system would probably have broken down, just think about all they had to do and cope with, stay out of the argument, leave it to the women to complain about this so called sexism if they want to.

67. I don’t quite see what yours at #66 has to do with mine at #65.

    I kind of like your logic in it, however. That really is something.

68. 25 Across: I vaguely remembered a film title with ‘-Rides Again’but thought it was ‘Daltry’. Google proved me wrong. Googling ‘rides again’ found ‘Destry’ straight away.

    I was born in 1951. This didn’t stop me (almost) knowing the title of a 1939 film. I wonder where the cut-off point is for ‘Before my time’? I’ve always thought this a strange excuse for not knowing an answer. Happily, the people in these comments knew the film title although only just born in 1939.

69. ExEssex @68
    For me, Shakespeare is “before my time” and yet I still seem to be familiar with quite a lot of his work. Surely it is more about how dated particular cultural references are. There are films from the 30s and 40s which are still shown regularly on TV. Similarly, there are film stars who are still iconic – surely both Marlene Dietrich and James Stewart qualify?

70. Well I was born and 1966 and my knowledge of cinema is terrible, but the title had stuck in my mind and I have no idea why!

71. Thanks to Nutmeg for the puzzle, scchua for the blog and Gaufrid for moderating.

    I found this a fairly straightforward solve by this setter’s standards with quite a few reversals and letter deletions to add to the mix.

    It’s funny how old films can stick in ones mind, but like all art, the creation date is immaterial. Good art is eternal.

    Whereas language is evolutionary, rich and diverse and should be celebrated as such.

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