Guardian 26,997 / Brummie

49 comments on “Guardian 26,997 / Brummie”

1. Thanks Gaufrid. You may have missed, or at least didn’t mention, the works of Stephen SONDHEIM that appear in the grid: COMPANY, FOLLIES, GYPSY, SWEENEY TODD, WEST SIDE STORY.

   I wondered about PR for President in 4d: Chambers doesn’t give it as an abbreviation, and “belittled” is a bit vague for “take the first two letters”.

2. Andrew @1
   Thanks. Musicals are my least favourite type of entertainment (closely followed by the cinema) so I didn’t even notice the theme.

   I had similar reservations about 4dn as the abbreviation is not in any of the three usual references. However, I couldn’t see any other way of parsing the clue.

3. Thanks for the blog, Gaufrid and thank you for the very fine cryptic, Brummie which was tough but very well clued. I also missed the theme, then saw the online comments and, knowing nothing of Stephen Sondheim, I assumed it was “the USA” – eg my favourite clue INSOLVENCY.

4. Thanks Brummie and Gaufrid

   I chose the GIPSY spelling as “gip” sounds like “gyp”, but the Sondheim theme (which I missed, of course) means that GYPSY must be the answer.

   I love a cleverly hidden answer, so RESONATOR was my favourite.

   I’ve never heard of IN A PIG’S EYE either, and it’s a poor clue, as it contains “eye”.

5. Thanks Gaufride and Brummie.

   I had never come across ‘in a pig’s eye’ either, but I do know the other version of it, from Philip Larkin’s Vers de Societe. Such dislike of mankind can be curiously refreshing. 🙂

   ‘My wife and I have asked a crowd of craps
   To come and waste their time and ours: perhaps
   You’d care to join us?’ In a pig’s arse, friend.

6. Conrad @5
   You’ve reminded me of an Everyman I did years ago. An anagram clue was developing as UP TO HIS ???? IN IT, and the letters I had left were A R S E

   It was EARS!

7. I started slowly – couldn’t get into the NW corner, but the RHS yielded quite easily and then it all came together. I’m yet another who hadn’t heard of the PIG’s EYE, but it couldn’t be much else from the anagram letters. Thanks to Brummie and Gaufrid.

8. Worth noting that Sondheim is also an avid crossword fan both as setter and solver!

9. Took me a while to complete this and I was pleased that I managed it. I did not pick the theme at all.

   Thanks Gaufrid and Brummie

10. I do not normally leave a comment, but this is a theme that I have always wanted to see, so I could not resist. I too initially had GIPSY for 26a until the theme became apparent, but then I realised that there could only be one answer. This was a lovely tribute to one of the best living composers, if not the best. Also, I hear that Sondheim’s crosswords are as fiendishly complex as his scores, but I have never seen one. Thanks Brummie, Gaufrid and Stephen.

11. Thanks Gaufrid and Brummie for a lovely crossword.

    IN A PIG’S EYE seems to be an American expression. Maybe some indication should have been given, although no doubt mrpenney would think we should be able to cope with some things from over the pond (Trump not included.) No doubt our esteemed American colleagues might struggle with the ‘brummie’ pronunciation of line as LOIN.

    I liked old HARRY HOUDINI and the duchess’s skates.

12. Thank you Brummie and Gaufrid.

    A most enjoyable puzzle, but the theme passed me by, I love opera, but not musicals. IN A PIG’S EYE was new to me, apparently it is also used in Australia, I do not remember it from NZ.

    My favourite clue was that for RESONATOR, so well hidden and fun, too, since tortoise shells are used as resonators.

13. I agree that the bottom half was easier than the top half, and the phrase at 11a was unfamiliar to me too, when it dropped out of the fodder I was initially reluctant to believe it could be right. A bit easier than Vlad and Tramp but none the less enjoyable for that. LOIN was last in…

    Thanks to Brummie and Gaufrid

14. j2o @10 – one of Sondheim’s puzzles is reprinted in Don Manley’s Crossword Manual

15. j2o @10, this crossword is actually the second one dedicated to Stephen Sondheim.
    It is only just over a year ago that Arachne wrote this beauty:
    http://www.fifteensquared.net/2015/03/28/guardian-26525-arachne/.
    A crossword that earned her a personal note from the man himself as he is, as Steve @8 says, a crossword fan himself.

    I had the same experience as Gaufrid, a bottom half that was almost a write-in and a top half that required somewhat more thinking.
    All in all, enjoyable enough but not the usual challenge from Brummie.

16. Thanks to Brummie and Gaufrid. As a Sondheim fan, I saw SWEENEY TODD early on so that WEST SIDE and STORY followed quickly, then FOLLIES, GYPSY, and COMPANY (and I was looking for ASSASSINS). I knew SYZYGY from previous puzzles but was slowed down by “gyp” = “pain” and “rich” = “comic.” As to IN A PIG’S EYE I found the comment below on line:

    When compared the human’s eyes, pig’s eyes are relatively small and the expression ‘a pig’s eye’ has been used to denote small eyes since the 17th century. The British poet Richard Flecknoe put that usage into print in 1658, in Enigmaticall Characters:

    She have the spirit in her of twenty school-mistresses, looking with her Pigs-eyes so narrowly to her charge.

    The phrase ‘in a pig’s eye’ emerged in the USA in the 19th century and, while it is used in Australia, it hasn’t travelled to the UK and its meaning is generally unknown there. The expression’s use to indicate incredulity could be related to the earlier ‘pig’s eye’ meaning but, if so, it isn’t clear how. It is in the same linguistic area as ‘pigs might fly’ – so it might also be related to that.

17. For me this was a really hard slog, with the NW taking me as long to solve as I had already spent on the rest of the crossword.

    Again I missed the theme – mea culpa – like Gaufrid, musicals are not my cup of tea. I always find it weird when the characters break from the storyline and burst into song for no apparent reason.

    However, from other comments on the forum, Stephen Sondheim is very well respected in this field, and I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt if he is also a cryptic crossword setter!

    My LOIs were 1a COMPANY (now I can’t see why that was so hard for me) and 1d COSMIC. I still don’t really get “COMIC” as a definition of “rich” in the latter.

    Yes found the Brummie pronunciation of 6d LOIN unfamiliar. Is there a meaning behind Brummie’s chosen nomenclature that I have never understood? (sorry to sound like a daft Antipodean).

    OTOH, have heard 11a IN A PIG’S EYE used in Australia.

    Still not sure of the “sounds like” in 26a GYPSY.

    Favourite was 19d UNSPUN – reminded me of a favourite setter, Arachne.

    Thanks to Brummie and Gaufrid, and interesting contributor comments.

18. PS Fascinated by the “pig’s eye” discussion and especially ACD’s informative post @16 which crossed with mine.

    I am more familiar with the phrase for something that is untrue, “pig’s arse”, which is very common in Oz.

    But that made the anecdote from muffin@6 even more amusing for me.

    This forum adds so much comic richness (!) to the whole solving process. Thanks, All.

19. The theme completely escaped me. I might quibble that Sondheim was the lyricist for West Side Story, not the scorer — that was Leonard Bernstein.

    I haven’t got the Brummie accent in my mind’s ear, but that had to be the choice. Could it also be Cockney? An American setter would have put the speaker in New York.

    Since when is lah a musical note? It’s been la as long as I can remember.

    How does gyp = pain?

    Thanks to Brummie and to Gaufrid.

20. Harry Houdini would be included in Ragtime which was made into a musical but this involved a different Stephen who did the music, not the lyrics.
    Thats my useless information for now.

    Btw-liked the Brummie puzzle especially LOIN.

21. To say that Sondheim writes ‘musicals’ using that term pejoratively is like saying Verdi or Alban Berg wrote musicals. Yes he is in that class and light years away from the popcorn fodder of say Cats or Mama Mia. Listen without prejudice.

22. I finished the puzzle without spotting the theme, despite being a great admirer of Sondheim.

    As an American, I am familiar with the phrase “in a pig’s eye,” but I think I’ve only encountered it in old books and movies: I think it would seem terribly old-fashioned if used today.

    I’m always amazed at my inability to spot hidden-answer clues: it seems like they should be the easiest to spot, but they rarely are for me. I BIFD in “resonator” but didn’t see how the clue worked until I came here.

23. Julie @17: Brummie is the term for a person from Birmingham. They have a distinctive accent.

    Incidentally, IN A PIG’S EYE was my first one in. (And yes, I’ve often said that solvers are responsible for the whole language, so in most circumstances American idioms and usages (but not spellings) should be fair game without a signal.

    Of course, I’m an American, a cruciverbialist, and gay, so this theme was right in my wheelhouse. But even with COMPANY and FOLLIES right across the top row, I didn’t spot it until SWEENEY TODD went in.

    My favorite Sondheim musical is A Little Night Music, which of course doesn’t fit into a crossword this small very easily, so I wasn’t expecting to see it (let alone A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum!) But I was indeed looking for Assassins and Passion.

24. Valentine@19 – Gyp is slang for pain: “Something that gives you ‘Gyp’ is causing you pain”.

25. For those curious: Here’s a link to a blog post that collects the various Sondheim puzzles (PDF format). It’s not obvious that the owner of the site has copyright permission, but if that doesn’t bother you, there you go.

    I just sort of glanced at them; they look pretty tricky.

26. I found this really straightforward especially after yesterday’s puzzle. Not a write in but nothing to struggle with. I had no problem with IN A PIGS EYE; perhaps as a result of my youthful consumption of American comics. I didn’t spot the theme which I should have as I got SONDHEIM pretty quickly. I haven’t come across OUT OF VOGUE before but I suppose it makes sense.
    Thanks Brummie.

27. Feeling very cross with myself for not getting the theme, for I’ve a great appreciation for SONDHEIM musicals and know of all these titles. Even worse, I just bunged in GIPSY, so that’s me failed.

    But I did like this crossword, solved either side of a walk on a beautiful early autumn day. COSMIC last in, not least because rich = comic wasn’t apparent to me. Loved LOIN, not least for speculating on all the trouble it must have given non-British English speakers.

28. I can only presume that Brummie is being self-referential in 6d. I don’t know any fellow Brummies who say “loin” when they mean “line”. Perhaps Brummie was raised in New Jersey, which would explain how he picked up the “in a pig’s eye” usage.
    That being said, a foin puzzle. Oops! I’m doing it now.

29. Anyone tell me why Irish = Whiskey?

30. Aztecmike @29

    Scotch is whisky, Irish, Bourbon, Rye etc are all whiskey. HTH.

31. Note on the linguistics of pig anatomy — in the filming of “The Night of the Iguana”, ‘Ava Gardner kept changing one of her lines in the film from “In a pig’s eye, you are!” to “In a pig’s ass, you are!”, much to the delight of the rest of the cast and crew, including director John Huston.’

32. Andrew @14 & Sil van den Hoek @15, thanks for the links.

33. Thanks very much Brummie and Gaufrid: great fun !

    Like Julie in Australia @17, I liked UNSPUN – but I wonder whether, in crosswords and elsewhere, we get carried away with the use of the anticipatory negative ‘un’ prefixing perfectly innocent words. Yesterday, Vlad gave us UNMOWN (‘yet to be cut’). A cryptic message (or crossword clue) can be ‘unscrambled’ – but can an egg ? If so, is a raw egg also ‘unfried’, ‘unboiled’, unpoached’, etc. ?

    Incidentally, the clue to 1ac could have been tricked-up a bit: the army abbreviation for ‘company’ is COY !

    Thanks all.

34. Adam @33
    As a spinner, weaver and knitter, UNSPUN is a regular part of my vocabulary, though the UN- in that context is descriptive, not necessarily anticipatory.

35. I missed the theme, as usual, and FOLLIES and SONDHEIM were my last two entered. IN A PIG’S EYE was new to me too, but it had to be that, even though “eyeing” was in the clue. COMIC = “rich” still puzzles me. The well-hidden RESONATOR was my favourite.

    Thanks, Brummie and Gaufrid.

36. This was relatively easy for a Brummie.

    My only gripe was that I discounted EYE as a word in the solution as the fodder had the word EYEING in it. Of course our illustrious ed has considered this and deemed it acceptable. (And that’s probably a pig’s arse 😉 )

    Of course I didn’t notice the theme. (I’m sorry Steve @21 but Sondheim may be “light years away” from Cats but it’s still muzak! IMHO of course. Are you really trying to make comparisons between Sondheim and Verdi? That really is bizarre. Neither does Berg deserve this association. Even his derivative youthful “Seven Early Songs” are far superior. )

    But of course “different strokes for different folks”!

37. Julie @17 and jennyk @35

    ‘rich’ can mean ‘comical’, and ‘comic’ can mean ‘comical’, and although it doesn’t necessarily follow from this that rich=comic, I think in this case it’s true.

    I can imagine “That’s rich!” or “That’s comic!” being said with the meaning of comical or amusing. (By contrast, “That’s a bit rich!” or “That’s rich coming from you!” tend to mean something different, namely, laughable or ridiculous.)

    Just a thought – hope it helps.

38. Don’t usually have time to do both the Indie and the Guardian but did today. And the Indie was Philip Glass themed. That’s two of my favourite composers in one day.

39. As correctly pointed out by Valentine @#19 Sondheim was not the scorer West Side Story — Bernstein was. As for “one of the best living composers” (#10) – he wrote the music for very few original songs (Send in the Clowns being probably the only memorable exception) except for a load of padding ones.

    He is indeed an able crossword solver and setter and in the world of stage musicals has been enormously active and successful in just about every field other than song-writing (ie the music side of that).

    He never seems to make any attempt to put these myths right. Maybe tune-smithing is thought to be more sexy than lyric-writing, book-writing, direction, production, promotion etc – or maybe there’s jealousy of those who did both words and music so well – Porter and Coward come first to mind.

    Sorry – scorer – not for me – but, knowing well the common misconception, it was easy enough to twig.

    BTW – as usual – I didn’t spot that it was part of a theme.

40. @cookie (#12) I have lived (sic) in Australia for 40 (long years and I have never heard the expression “in a pig’s eye”. Collins gives it as American.

    I think in general that setters should not trawl things from dictionaries which they themselves are not familiar with – maybe Brummie has indeed heard this somewhere – I rather doubt it.

    Crossword puzzles should be a battle between the mind of the setter and that of the solver – the solver being graciously allowed to win in the end of course.

    They pretty well all use software to fill the grids these days. Automation like that is fine – but leaving in obscurities which the software has suggested but which the setter would not have got from their own head is not. Otherwise it’s like playing chess against a computer.

41. Belated thanks to mrpenny@23 and Alan B@37 for clarifications re the term “Brummie” and how “rich/comic” could work. Appreciate both your posts.

42. JollySwagman @40,

    Julie in Australia @17 “have heard 11a IN A PIG’S EYE used in Australia.”

    The Phrase Finder gives:
    The phrase ‘in a pig’s eye’ emerged in the USA in the 19th century and, while it is used in Australia, it hasn’t travelled to the UK and its meaning is generally unknown there.

43. Jolly Swagman@39

    That’s fighting talk! I love Sondheim’s songs. Saw Gypsy last year (music by Jule Styne) and it was good, but not a patch on Assassins, Pacific Overtures, Company, etc.

44. JollySwagman@39 – as Sondheim has won six Tony awards for best original score then it is perhaps not quite as idiotic as you perceive to regard Sondheim as a scorer. It is a strange definition of a good score that it needs to be capable of being dismantled into “songs”. Having said that, Barbra Streisand seems to have managed it as her latest No 1 album features four Sondheim tunes.

45. The power of marketing.

    If Sondheim’s a composer I must be one too – either that or I’m the the Shah of bleeping Persia.

    OTOH it’s just semantics – normally we think of composers as folk such as Brahms or Elgar. Usually stage musicals just consist of songs – OK an overture, entre-act etc – but no recitativo (which is just padding anyway) as in most opera – nor much incidental music – as in films.

    A few have an equivalent. So that needs a score – so you could call the guy who writes it a scorer – that doesn’t make him a composer by any stretch – but might get “scorer” off the hook in the present puzzle.

46. Sondheim must be a composer, he’s been Radio 3’s Composer of the Week! (And I’d say that as a songwriter, he’s up there with Schubert.)

47. Came to this late due to a busy week but thoroughly enjoyed it. I’m evidently in the minority in finding “in a pig’s eye” so familiar as not to need to check a dictionary. Admittedly I live in the US now but I’m surprised at JollySwagman’s implication @40 that Brummie must have been unfamiliar with the usage. Surely any phrase that has appeared on Star Trek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf6JNBuCj5A — right at the end) has at least a chance of being familiar to Brits.

48. @L #47 McCoy may have been speaking Vulcan, for Spock’s benefit.

    @ others re Sondheim. I clearly need to brush up on middlebrow “culture” and the snob distinctions within. I hadn’t realised that there were those who consider Sondheim’s banalities to be high art and sneer in their turn at Lloyd-Webber (Cats). We must surely be in “Phone for the fish-knives Norman” territory here – but then, with ximeneanism never far away, we so often are.

    In general it’s not good to knock genres which one is not really immersed in oneself. I was trying not to do that – just carping over the use of the term “composer”.

    Contrary to the silly nonsense spouted by most conductors (=stars these days) in their tedious speeches at the LNOTP, music is not a unifying thing – it is very divisive – one man’s meat is another man’s poison. But then a great many LNOTP concerts have been notable for having opera singers (from the fraternity who sneer at the stage musical people) demonstrate their total inability to make sense of anything other than opera – eg famous numbers from the shows etc, which they think they can do.

    Sorry for mentioning LNOTP – now only good for sneering at by the musical snoberati – but then that’s another of their treasures that the BBC have ruined.

49. In Chandler’s The Little Sister, the phrase ‘in a pig’s valise’ crops up, as a meaningless phrase. “Why do all these punks keep saying that? It isn’t funny. It isn’t witty. It doesn’t mean anything.” I’ve never come across the ‘eye’ variant before.
    From my point of view, lyric theatre embraces all sorts of musical drama and story-telling. Opera seems sometimes to mean musicals that used to be popular but now aren’t, and so have to be subsidised (not that I’m against subsidy). I was disappointed in myself not to pick up the theme sooner.
    Thanks to Brummie and Gaufrid.

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