Guardian Cryptic 27015 Philistine

53 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 27015 Philistine”

1. There were good things about this xword (e.g., I liked the cunning triple-definition clues) but

   one of the Stepford wives in the 2004 film of that name

   is a bit of a swiz, because no one in their right mind remembers the unnecessary remake.

2. Thanks for the blog, scchua. This puzzle was welcome after my miserable failure on yesterday’s Paul. Fairly breezy stuff, I thought at the time as I raced through quickly. But I didn’t linger long enough to parse and enjoy the elaborate constructions – missing that some had multiple wordplays going on.

3. I could not parse 5a – and still do not understand it.

   I also could not fully parse 26a and 7d, not being familiar with Stepford wives.

   I liked BISTRO, MOTEL, LONG, SEED BEDS, ASTOUNDING.

   New word for me was OTOSCOPE.

   I failed to solve 1a and 2d.

   Thanks scchua and Philistine.

4. @michelle, I also couldn’t parse criminal and, like you, I am still none the wiser. I had the c.i….. crossers and guessed the rest based on “felon”.

   Any further explanations would be appreciated. It looks to be some kind of anagram with additions/deletions?

5. Re 5a, “criminal power” = anagram of “imperial crown”, or anagram of [“imperial crown” minus “power”] = “criminal”

6. Devious but enjoyable. Managed to get 7d from the definition alone as I don’t know much about the film! 5a took me some time to work out, but “imperial crown” is simply an anagram of ” criminal” and “power”.

   Thanks to Philistine and scchua.

7. thanks scchua

   I get it now

   hmm, that’s sort of weird!

8. Sorry scchua, we crossed. My slow typing again!

9. I’m not very keen on double or triple wordplays or double definition with added wordplay (as opposed to double and triple definitions); would prefer the compiler to go with just one and save the other(s) for another time.

10. Thanks Philistine and Scchua.

    In 22d it’s the odd letters in each word separately that have been removed i.e. The first and third letters of ‘good’. ( when both words taken together the 1st/3rd/5th/6th/8th letters are removed).

11. There seems to be some sort of theme lurking here-somewhere between Cluedo and Psycho.
    Thanks scchua and Phil.

12. Thanks Larry. Blog amended.

13. Thanks Philistine and scchua

    Quite a number of unsually easy clues for a Philistine (the hiddens and most of the anagrams) – just as well, as there were also the typical number that I didn’t understand even afte getting the answer (POLICE and CRIMINAL for example).

    I was held up by entering the equally good FOUNDERY (valid alternative spelling apparently) for 25a.

    Mixed feelings about the triples. 10a for example is very clever (and I saw all the parts), but on the other hand it seems a bit OTT to use 76 letters to clue 6!

    I agree with realthog about IDLER.

14. As others have noted, the double and triple wordplays seem rather superfluous – indeed a little show-offy. And, while I knew 7d, I agree that the remake was not a patch on the original (which I’d bet is much better known). But otherwise quite fun.

15. Thanks scchua for the explanation on criminal[power]. That’s quite tricky – I’m glad I was able to guess the answer from the crossers, because I don’t think I would have cracked the wordplay!

16. Thank you Philistine and scchua.

    I was expecting something else today, but we have been spared. I found this puzzle most enjoyable, only slight problem I had was with “Stepford Wives”, a film unknown to me. FALSETTO was the first hidden word I found, my favourite clue, but after that I thought there were rather too many hidden words.

17. As a countertenor I must object to 17D. Falsetto has nothing to do with any problems below the belt!

18. Jason @17, I hope you have not taken my post @16 amiss – it was the clever way the word FALSETTO was hidden that I liked; in fact my husband could sing as a countertenor, and I have four sons…

19. I agree with matrixmania@2; at least I had the success of a full solve today after such a poor performance on the Paul puzzle yesterday. So many thanks to Philistine for restoring my confidence, and to scchua for the blog.

    Just like muffin@13, I put in foundery, at 25a, thinking it might be another spelling of foundry. I am still more used to smelter than SMELTERY, the correct answer which I filled in to allow ANTAGONISM at 12d.

    Yes I agree with others that sometimes the double/triple definitions like “Tall island pine” at 18a for LONG, seem a bit heavy-handed. While I really enjoyed 23a, as another example, I thought the clever hidden in “cannabis, troublemaker” – leading to BISTRO, was more than enough without the additional anagram of “orbits”. However maybe the extra clung did assist with the surface.

    I loved the hidden in 9a, CEREBRUM! Another favourite was the anagram at 5d, a wonderful anagram leading to COMPASSIONATELY.

    On the down side, I disliked the way the abbreviation “c” for “cast” was used to change 10a POLITE to POLICE for 1a. Is this a common abbreviation, because it felt a bit weak to me? My least favourite answer was 14a SEEDBEDS, I just thought it was a silly idea that tennis players would sleep in them. But others liked this clue, so again different strokes for different folks.

    Thanks to all contributors for enriching the experience.

20. @Julie 19
    The use of “cast” to change POLITE to POLICE isn’t an abbreviation – we are required to break down the word “cast” to “c as t” (as in c for t)and swap the letters round.
    In the interest of full disclosure, I didn’t get it, either!

21. Julie @19, c is not an abbreviation for “cast”, you have to read it “C as T”, in other words change the T in POLITE to C to give POLICE.

22. [apologies, baerchen, we crossed]

23. Further thoughts, there are at least 60 words -as-, does anyone remember this trick being used before?

24. Thank you to baerchen and cookie for clarification re 1a; “c as t”, rather than “c” as an abbreviation for “cast”. Duh, I get it now. (Sorry for lack of number references for the comments – they show on iPad but not on iPhone.)

25. Thanks to Philistine and scchua. I could not parse CRIMINAL or PLOD and was slowed down by IDLER but enjoyed the process.

26. @Cookie 23
    I’m reluctant to prise open the coffin lid on this one, but Guardian 26,833 by Boatman contained a device in which he used the word BOND (it was a James Bond/Goldfinger themed puzzle)in a down clue and the solver was supposed to read that as B on D (quite how wasn’t and isn’t clear to me).
    There are well over 100 posts on the thread including several from you and me on this topic. I’d recommend stopping before the unseemly spat at the end, although the first para of Sil’s post @71 gave me food for thought.
    My only interest in this, as a new setter, is to try and keep pace with innovation in clueing techniques while of course learning wherever possible about what might be considered acceptable by different editors at different papers.

27. Like other I enjoyed this but was foxed by POLICE and NEMO, couldn’t parse CRIMINAL and guessed IDLER. I like it when setters push the boundaries a bit like triple/quadruple definitions, ‘c as t’ etc, but it doesn’t mean I necessarily spot them! Thanks to Philistine and scchua.

28. Found this very enjoyable and despite the innovations not particularly difficult. SMELTERY was last in. Didn’t know the Stepford wife, but that one had to be right from the definition and crossers.

    Thanks to Philistine and scchua

29. I hate triple/quadruple/etc clues. You only need one definition and one cryptic element to solve a clue, making the additional parts at best redundant and at worst obstructive to solving. I wasted too much time on this puzzle just eliminating the fog. Multiples might just be excusable if they result in a witty surface, but that doesn’t appear to be the inspiration here.
    I would say the “C as T” device is unfair. But by my reading it doesn’t work anyway. For me, C as T is an instruction to change POLICE to POLITE, not the other way round.

30. For a while, I thought this was unusually easy for Philistine, then I slammed into a brick wall. SEEDBEDS and BILATERAL eventually started another run, but the last few in the SE were a struggle. I couldn’t parse CRIMINAL or IDLER, missing mIDLER as I didn’t even know that there had been a remake. I too entered FOUNDREY, but the crossers showed that was wrong before I got around to checking whether the unusual spelling was valid.

    My favourite was POLITE, and I also particularly liked KNEE, FALSETTO, OTOSCOPE, BILATERAL and ENTIRELY.

    I have a minor quibble about 4d (for which something seems to be missing from the blog entry). The “and “ in “born and raised” doesn’t seem to fit properly into the wordplay, though it is needed for the surface.

    Thanks, Philistine and scchua .

31. If the compilers, bless ’em, did everything asked for by some of our bloggers, I think the result would be disappointingly easy. Thanks to Philistine and to Scchua for a fun lunchtime.

32. I wholeheartedly echo JuneG’s evaluation (@6): ‘devious but enjoyable’.

    This went relatively smoothly, considering how unusual and original some of the clues were, and it was mostly great fun. I forgot to go back to 5a CRIMINAL to see how it worked (although I guessed the general idea), and I left the pair 1a POLICE / 2d OMEN unsolved because I couldn’t see what clue construction was intended at 1a and had no idea what the fish was.

    Thanks to Philistine, and to scchua for explaining the inexplicable(!).

33. Enjoyed this, despite failing at 1ac. I’m a bit puzzled by the level of disapproval of the use of multiple wordplay, definition etc. VW@29 complains that it is ‘obstructive to solving’. Well, substitute ‘challenging’ for ‘obstructive’ and I would have thought that that was precisely the setter’s task. I felt that the multiples read well, particularly 22d. I was annoyed (with myself) that I missed some techniques (eg in 1ac and 5ac) that I would be on the look out for in Azed or Genius.
    Thanks to Philly for the challenge and scchua for the explanations.

34. baerchen @26, I had forgotten -on-, “Bond” (and “A bounder’s sanction” 4!) as I knew I would. -as- probably provides the most letter changes, but there are several other possibilities, there is -to-, stop, stow, etc. and -at-, bath, bats etc…

    I quite like the challenge of such clues.

35. DP@33 … best example is the shortest … 18a “Tall pine” would have been perfectly adequate to give LONG. I guess that most people would have solved it this way and wondered what the “island” was doing in the middle. And having realised what it was, not feeling that this was time well spent. A questionable reference in any case, as the island is Long Island, not Long, so the clue is the equivalent of cluing NORTH by America.
    You can possibly tell that I am one of those that likes my crosswords to be diverting rather than challenging.

36. Great puzzle, well blogged thanks both!! Once again the prejudices of various commenters never fails to amaze me. The other day great praise was heaped on Imogen who clued SHIFT as a quintuple definition, similarly Arachne came up with a quadruple and we were all drooling!! But Philly does it and he is excoriated!! Why? It seems some setters can do no wrong, while others are less indulged!!

37. I really enjoy and admire the double and triple definitions. I do share the Bette Midler gripe though. Of all the accomplishments of the Divine Miss M, starring in that forgettable remake doesn’t make the list.

38. I can’t say I’m particularly bothered about multidefinitions one way or the other. I was a little miffed about NEMO/OMEN. I didn’t know the former was a fish although I’ve heard of the film. I guessed (M)IDLER but I didn’t know she was in the remade film.
    I liked SMELTERY and VICTIM-and I’m ashamed to say that I couldn’t parse CRIMINAL!
    Mostly ok though.
    Thanks Philistine.

39. VW@35, of course two words would have been adequate at 18a. It’s the extra word (regardless of the suitability in this instance) that makes it puzzling. I’m diverted by a challenge, myself! Each to his/her own – and quite right, too!

40. Julie@19 did you get that tennis players are seeds, e.g. Serena Williams is first seed in (whichever) tournament? Sorry if you do know this but not sure why you’d find the clue silly if you do40.
    I didn’t parse police as didn’t get c as t and criminal as didn’t get anagram and subtraction.
    Thanks to setter for a workout and blogger for help with parsing.

41. Where did that 40 come from? Gremlins!

42. Apart from the three of four “iffy” clues mentioned above, I liked this crossword. Perhaps, more editorial work is required?

43. I really liked the mind of the sincere Brummie in 9a.

    I don’t quite understand how “troublemaker” can be an anagram indicator (23a).

44. Jim @ 43 – Yes, not a brilliant anagram indicator.

45. I/we didn’t even notice that one, JimS.
    If you’re familiar with Philistine’s puzzles you know that he likes to do these ‘overkill’ clues.
    I am happy with it, it’s part of his style, as long as he does it every now and then – just to make the crossword spicier.
    Today it was a bit too much, in my opinion, and yes, a word (or two?) like ‘showing off’ springs to mind.
    I used it on one or two occasions in my earlier posts, however, I can see Philistine having fun as a setter.
    The one at 18ac is not my cup of tea anyway as Long is not an island and when seeing it as Long Island, Island should be capitalised.
    Well, in my book of crosswords, that is.

    Of our first five entries, three were hiddens and there was one more to come.
    Once more something that we considered as ‘too much’.

    What Philistine did in 1ac, well, you may expect that from him and I am fine with it (although I am reluctant to do that myself).
    For a short time, I had a similar feeling as Van Winkle @29 – is it C becomes T or the indended T becomes C?
    Baerchen @26, seeing my name I had no idea what you were talking about and therefore I went back to that thread.
    What I wrote wasn’t that much beside the truth and, even if one gets used to it or is aware of it with certain setters, it is a Guardian-only thingy.

    As to 5ac, it is a device that Philistine used before (just like Crucible, on many occasions).
    What I didn’t find very satisfying was that ‘Felon with power (abused)’ and ‘(abused) imperial crown’ weren’t linked in a sense that the setter didn’t tell us that one should lead to the other.
    It felt like something was missing in the middle of the clue.

    Is ‘martyr’ really interchangeable with ‘victim’? [was my PinC’s final question]

    Despite one or two (or three or four) ‘minuses’, solving this crossword was very enjoyable.
    And isn’t that what it’s all about?
    I wouldn’t say that Philistine stands out from the crowd but he is certainly different and original.
    In the end, that is something to cherish.

    Thanks sschua for another comprehensive blog!

46. Thanks Gillian@40; not sure if you will see this late response to your comment. Just to say, I did understand the play on the idea of “seeds” – both in the garden, and as the system of tennis grading. But “SEEDBEDs” as a term meaning “where seeded tennis players might sleep” struck me as odd rather than clever. But as has been said on this site so many times, different clues can strike solvers in different ways. On reflection I should not have used the word “silly”, which sounded a bit dismissive and superior.

47. Julie@46 glad you didn’t take offence at my explaining something you understood! I think it’s a whimsical clue – which probably is a nice way of saying silly! I like a bit of whimsy but know it can be irritating. Btw I’m usually in Australia but currently in UK so posting rather late for you.

48. A bit late, but we really enjoyed this puzzle. The multiple wordplay clues we found fun.

    Thanks scchua and many thanks Philistine.

49. I found myself smiling frequently once I understood some of the cryptic devices deployed… the comp. anag. at 5a was an &lit as well (or, in the blogger’s lexicon, WIWD) which I thought was excellent – albeit rare to see in a non-Azed.

    I’m in the multiple-definition/wordplay camp — it makes decoding a bit harder and thus more satisfying upon (eventual) success

50. Just one more thing.
    Actually, something that I wanted to mention @45 but forgot to do.
    It is about our first one in (FALSETTO, 17ac).
    And I don’t think anybody made a remark about one of the indicators.
    While the solution is nicely hidden, I doubt whether ‘pulled up’ is a correct reversal indicator in an across clue.

51. FOI was 17a CASTRATO and wrong! Eventually succeeded. Probably too late but can someone tell me what WIWD stands for, please?

52. Pino @51

    I didn’t know what WIWD stood for either, but the blogger (scchua) actually told us in his explanation of 17a FALSETTO:

    “wordplay intertwined with definition”

    Now we know!

53. Thanks Alan B @52 I missed it first time round.

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