Guardian Cryptic 27,021 by Crucible

The puzzle may be found at https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/27021.

Moderately difficult, with a theme of the brothers Grimm and their folk tales. Inventive, but with a few niggles.

Across
1 UPDATED Put in picture, mount­ed, then taken out (7)
A charade of UP (‘mounted’) plus DATED (‘taken out’).
5 CAPTIVE Head in control of ITV revised The Prisoner (7)
An envelope (‘in control of’) of TIV, an anagram (‘revised’) of ‘ITV’ in CAPE (‘head’).
10 PLOT Guide snubs one, so has he lost it? (4)
Last in, and I cannot say that I like it: P[i]LOT (‘guide’) minus (‘snubs’?) I (‘one’), and if your guide had ‘lost the PLOT’ he or she might snub you. It seems so far-fetched that I feel I have missed something. Of course, in looking at 14A, I had hoped it might give me some help here, but no such luck.
11 CINDERELLA Doctor called in to nurse royal prince’s favourite (10)
An envelope (‘to nurse’) of ER (‘royal’, the current holder of the title) in CINDELLA, an anagram (‘doctor’) of ‘called in’.
12 UMBRIA Classy medic and artist tour Italy, or part of it (6)
An envelope (‘tour’) of I (‘Italy’)  in U (‘classy’) plus MB (‘medic’) plus RA (‘artist’).
13 EYE RHYME Verse feature that sounds wrong? Check out Frost, say (3,5)
A charade of EYE (‘check out’) plus RHYME, which sounds like (‘say’) RIME (‘frost’). Frost would be the poet Robert.
14 INTERRUPT Burst in about 10 roughly and stop (9)
An envelope (‘about’) of NTE, an anagram (‘roughly’) of TEN (’10’) in IRRUPT (‘burst in’). I do not think that the closeness of IRRUPT and INTERRUPT in derivation and meaning adds any lustre to the clue.
16 PROSE Language test went up by a penny (5)
A charade of P (‘penny’) plus ROSE (‘went up’). That leaves ‘language test’ as the definition, which seemed at first a little odd, but Chambers gives among the definitions of PROSE “a passage of prose for translation from or usu into a foreign language, as an exercise”.
17 GRIMM Good writer’s opening room for another one (5)
Tricky. A charade of G (‘good’) plus RIMM, an envelope (‘opening’) of I’M (‘writer’s’ i.e.”the writer is”) in RM (‘room’). The ‘one’ being another writer (actually a pair of them , the brothers Jacob and Wilhelm; there are other GRIMMs who might be described as ‘writer’ solo, but 19A and other clues point to the famous pair).
19 SNOW WHITE 17 character‘s present holiday in Kent? (4,5)
An envelope (‘in’) of NOW (‘present’) plus WHIT (‘holiday’) in SE (‘Kent’). Here ’17’ is the clue answer, the brothers GRIMM.
23 RAINCOAT Mac, a cool guy from Zagreb, runs to the front (8)
A twisted charade of ‘a’ plus IN (‘cool’) plus CROAT (‘guy from Zagreb’, unannounced indication by example) with the R from CROAT moved up (‘runs to the front’).
24 AT ODDS A barber’s in dispute (2,4)
A charade of ‘a’ plus TODD’S (‘barber’s’; Sweeney Todd, of Fleet Street).
26 HIGH GERMAN Angela’s one means of communication (4,6)
Double definition, Angela Merkel being the high German (Chancellor being about as high as you can go).
27 FROG Princess’s partner for playing golf (4)
A charade of FRO, an anagram (‘playing’) of ‘for’ plus G (‘golf’).
28 AGILITY Delicacy father sacrificed for speed (7)
[fr]AGILITY (‘delicacy’) minus FR (‘father sacrificed’).
29 STORIES Shops retain current accounts (7)
An envelope (‘retain’) of I (‘current’, common symbol for the physical quantity) in STORES (‘shops’).
Down
2 PULLMAN What vamp wants to do for coach (7)
Double definition.
3 ASTER Daisy needs a bit taken off behind (5)
ASTER[n] (‘behind’) minus its last letter (‘needs a bit taken off’).
4 EN CLAIR Name inscribed in cake in plain language (2,5)
An envelope (‘inscribed in’) of N (‘name’) in ÉCLAIR (‘cake’)
6 APEMEN Old relatives occasionally upset inside? So be it (6)
An envelope (‘inside’) of PE (‘occasionally uPsEt’) in AMEN (‘so be it’).
7 THE CHURCH First estate’s service provider? (3,6)
Cryptic definition.
8 VOLUMES Very old smokers tackle European books (7)
An envelope (‘tackle’) of E (‘European’) in V (‘very’) plus O (‘old’) plus LUMS (chimneys, ‘smokers’).
9 ONCE UPON A TIME Start tale thus or continue a poem willy-nilly? (4,4,1,4)
An anagram (‘willy-nilly’) of ‘continue a poem’.
15 EMMENTHAL Food on board people in hamlet prepared (9)
An envelope (‘in’) of MEN (‘people’) in EMTHAL, an anagram (‘prepared’) of ‘hamlet’. The ‘board’ is evidently a cheese board.
18 READING Each department head in group delivers lesson (7)
An envelope (‘in’) of EA (‘each’) plus D (‘Department head’) in RING (‘group’).
20 WHATNOT Stand with headgear on upside down, tense (7)
A charade of W (‘with’) plus HAT (‘headgear’) plus NO, a reversal (‘upside down’ in a down light) of ‘on’ plus T (‘tense’).
21 TADPOLE Swimmer‘s story about day beside river (7)
An envelope (‘about’) of D (‘day’) plus (‘beside’) PO (‘river’ in Italy) in TALE (‘story’).
22 FOREST Side of Nottingham that supplies mast or masts (6)
Definition and cryptic definition: Nottingham Forest is the soccer club, and a forest can provide ‘mast’ – nuts of beech, oak etc. – or masts – for sailing ships.
25 OFFER Tender chest? Remove top (5)
[c]OFFER (‘chest’) minus its first letter (‘remove top’).
completed grid

43 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 27,021 by Crucible”

  1. Thanks PeterO and Crucible.
    Good puzzle, as always from Crucible. Failed to get 6d and 17a.
    Thanks for parsing 17a and 22d.

  2. How nice to get my missed parsings before bed. Same two as ilippu. Also paused on ‘test’. Thanks PeterO and of course thanks to Crucible. I’m guessing the Grimm stories were written in high German.

  3. I’ve no quarrel with 16, having tackled many Latin and Greek proses in my time (full form being prose composition, as opposed to the even more challenging verse composition).

  4. Thanks Crucible and PeterO

    Tricky. I didn’t parse GRIMM or AGILITY.

    I was happy with PLOT, parsed as you did, but I see the problem now you point it out, Peter.

    Favourite was EYE RHYME.

  5. “Willy-nilly” as an anagrind? Does nobody know its true meaning any more? It means “willing or not,” with usually “not” implied. It doesn’t mean “all mixed up.”

  6. Valentine @6. Agreed that that was (I presume) the original meaning but Chambers gives “haphazardly” as a synonym, and I think that that’s the way it’s most often used nowadays.
    I had a head start solving today, having just finished rereading Terry Pratchett’s Witches Abroad, which features the 11, 19, 27 and 5 princess 29 in a cunning 10.

  7. I think 7d is a double definition, albeit with closely-related meanings: “First estate” (the Church as an institution) and “service provider” (a particular church)

  8. Thanks Crucible and Peter O.
    As a life-long supporter, my favourite had to be FOREST even though I didn’t see it straight away.
    Many other good clues but like others couldn’t parse GRIMM which I only twigged after getting several of the tales. Last one in STORIES

  9. My tuppence worth on PLOT. I parsed as above but was not unhappy with the definition. A guide or pilot could plot a course, which could be lost…. It all seemed to hang together fine for me.

    In full realisation that there are far finer minds than mine contributing to this blog, always ready to stand corrected.

    Thanks to Crucible and Peter for a most enjoyable puzzle and a very helpful blog

  10. Thanks, PeterO. I think I enjoyed this more than you did.

    I don’t really understand the objections to 10ac, nor the question mark re ‘snubs’ as an indicator: surely ‘snub’ can mean simply ‘ignore’?

    Like Flavia, I had no problem with PROSE. I remember vividly my very first language test at university: translating the US Declaration of Independence into Latin – rather more challenging than those I’d been used to at school!

    Many thanks to Crucible, as ever, for a most enjoyable puzzle with a gentle, unobtrusive theme and the usual brilliant cluing. I particularly liked the clues for CAPTIVE, EYE RHYME, RAINCOAT, AGILITY, APEMEN, THE CHURCH [I agree with Andrew], TADPOLE and FOREST. And a smile for PULLMAN.

  11. Thanks Crucible and PeterO.

    I thought the clue for PLOT was fine; in the surface I think ‘lost it’ means to become very angry or emotionally upset.

    I liked the PULLMAN vamp.

  12. Thank you Crucible and PeterO.

    Very enjoyable, I was surprised that I managed to solve a Crucible puzzle in a reasonable time – only catches were PROSE, where I first tried getting “oral” into the answer, and GRIMM, still don’t understand the definition “another one”, I thought it might be the whole clue?

  13. The clue for PLOT was a bit whimsical, as suggested by the way it’s framed as a question, but I thought it was fine. APEMEN and CAPTIVE were great.

    Had to come here for a couple of parsings, but overall a really nice puzzle.

  14. Many thanks for an excellent blog, PeterO, needed it for GRIMM.

    Enjoyed this with one minor quibble over AGILITY = speed. In my experience, one is often sacrificed for the other.

    No problem here with PLOT or, having seen the explanation, PROSE.

    Many fine clues but I particularly admired the surfaces STORIES, FOREST, FROG & OFFER.

    Valentin @6 Thanks for the reminder. I think I did know that but have slipped into it’s misuse like so many others.

    Fine job, Crucible, many thanks.

    Nice weekend, all.

  15. Thanks Crucible and PeterO

    Chambers has ‘Swiftness and suppleness’ as definition 2 of agility, so it seems fair.

  16. Got stuck on NW corner, but finished eventually except for EYE RHYME. Like others I couldn’t parse FOREST (but managed GRIMM). I also thought the clue for PROSE was a bit weird, but Eileen has explained it above. Plenty of good clues including WHATNOT, GRIMM, PULLMAN and SNOW WHITE. Many thanks to Crucible and PeterO.

  17. Simon S @17 Yes, I read that before posting but I took that def to mean “swiftness and suppleness”, that is to say with.

    Didn’t want to make a big thing of it, it risks sounding picky over an excellent crossword, but I’m still not happy that that one can equate agility with speed.

  18. Thanks to Crucible and PeterO. I too had trouble parsing GRIMM and FOREST but also APEMEN (I did not see the PE as “occasionally upset”) and took a while before getting HIGH GERMAN. Very enjoyable.

  19. I struggled a bit with this, and resorted to a bit of guess and check at times. In retrospect it is all fair enough

    Thanks to Crucible and PeterO

  20. Thank you Peter O and Crucible. I surprised myself by finishing it relatively quickly. I also have no problem with 10ac plot and 16ac prose.I enjoyed 5 across especially as I spent a day in Port Meirion last Friday where the Prisoner series was filmed a truly beautiful place.

  21. I got AT ODDS as soon as I glanced at the paper and 9dn immediately after but the next few were like pulling teeth. I finally sussed the theme and the puzzle clicked into place,although I was delayed by assuming 7dn was THE CLERGY. However SNOW WHITE sorted me out-as it were! I liked PULLMAN and RAINCOAT.
    Hard but enjoyable.
    Thanks Crucible.

  22. At 23a, AGILITY, I completely forgot that “fr” can stand for “father” and was struggling instead with ways to put “pa” into some kind of delicacy, perhaps the edible sort. Thanks, PeterO.

    I’m depressed that the “haphazard” meaning of “willy-nilly” has entered a reputable dictionary. Fair enough, I suppose, a dictionary’s job is to report how people use words, and words change. But I will miss such usages as “he was brought willy-nilly to the ceremony,” with clear implication that it was more nilly than willy and that he’d rather be somewhere else.

    The expression comes from an older meaning of “will,” not as a future indicator but an active verb meaning “to want, to desire”, as well as an extinct verb, to “nill”, meaning the opposite, “not to want.” So “will he, nill he,” means “whether he wants to or not” (and he probably doesn’t).

    I couldn’t think of why the last phrase in my second paragraph sounded familiar until I realized I was hearing it in Noel Coward’s voice, on a recording I had as a child of Ogden Nash’s poems on the creatures in “The Carnival of the Animals” along with Saint-Saens’s music. I can probably recite the whole thing, don’t get me started, but here’s the bit that phrase evoked:

    The lion is the king of beasts
    And husband of the lioness.
    Gazelles and things on which he feasts
    Address him as “your hioness.”
    There are those who admire that roar of his
    On the African jungles and veldts,
    But I think: Wherever a lion is,
    I’d rather be somewhere else.

  23. Enjoyed this. Too many good clues to list individually & plenty of interesting surfaces. LOI was 23ac – Valentine@26 has described my problem exactly!

    Thank you Crucible & PeterO.

  24. Eileen @11

    Apologies for the late reply – I have been going from one medical appointment to another (just routine, but it still takes up the time). I take your point about ignore for snub (although neither Chambers nor Collins online mentions the equation); but still, I think that use of snub implies a degree of intent which hardly fits with a letter being dropped from a word. Also, although some have indicated having no problem with 10A, only Doofs @10 has suggested how PLOT might relate to the clue – and that is about how I saw it, and felt was far-fetched.

  25. Late to the party, but I got there in the end after having three different sessions at it – I must be a bit rusty after many weeks off! Quite a contrast when set next to yesterday’s Arachne, but a good sense of satisfaction when the last one (PLOT of course) went in.

    Thanks all for the very interesting background on willy-nilly; I didn’t know that, I’m embarrassed to say – but always glad to be educated.

    Thanks both.

  26. This was challenging, but not as tough today as I expected for a Friday puzzle. About halfway through, I solved GRIMM and that was the key I needed for SNOW WHITE. From there I had enough crossers to battle through the second half. No problems here with PLOT but I share the quibble others have with AGILITY. Thanks to PeterO and Crucible.

  27. PeterO @28

    No need at all for an apology – I hope all is well with you.

    For me, pace dictionaries, ‘snub’ would primarily mean ‘ignore’ [rather than necessarily insult] – but I think the current expression may be ‘blank’ [although ‘we’ may have by now moved on from there – it’s hard to keep up!].
    ‘Losing the plot’ is such a common expression here now, especially among those of my generation, that I think it stands alone as the second part of the clue and so I have no problem – or I may just be losing [or have lost] it. 😉

  28. Re ‘snub’ and ‘ignore’, you can also say that you snub/cut someone, so in that sense I think it’s fine for the removal of I from PILOT.

  29. Thanks PeterO and Crucible.

    I got there in the end, after a pleasant struggle.

    Am I right no one mentioned a fairy story theme? CINDERELLA, GRIMM, SNOWWHITE, FROG (TADPOLE), STORIES, PLOT, FOREST, ONCE UPON A TIME, and mention of prince in the clues.

  30. Just searched the page for theme – and found PeterO (and others)mentioned it – doh! Back to sleep…

  31. Thanks PeterO.
    PLOT (10ac) was actually my first one in, and just like Eileen I see no problem with it.
    We raised an eyebrow when entering PROSE (16ac) because of the ‘test’ bit but we think it’s OK now.
    I am also not sure whether we fully liked 13ac (EYE RHYME).
    But you can’t have it all, can you?
    Not even in an Arachne puzzle – yesterday’s ‘mathematics’ wasn’t great (sorry, Dutch!), our early entry ‘calculation’ was at least as good.

    My absolute favourites were HIGH GERMAN (26ac), a really classy clue.
    And one that no one mentioned: UPDATED (1ac).
    In the latter, nothing has to do with that picture on the wall, and yet all the constructional parts relate to it.
    Wonderful!

    Good crossword – and I lived happily ever after ….

    BTW, good to see back in these places , limeni!

  32. PS Sil

    I’d be in interested re your doubts about EYE RHYME – one of my favourites – but I’m going to bed now.

  33. I was held up for ages because, given the theme (which I twigged fairly quickly), I had PUMPKIN for 2d, and just assumed that I couldn’t parse it.

  34. Just forget about EYE RHYME, Eileen [and goodnight].
    It’s fine.
    We didn’t have any doubts, we just didn’t like or perhaps didn’t fully understand (!!) this clue.
    That said, still not one of our favourites.
    We are all different, aren’t we?

  35. I found this not quite as enjoyable as the week’s other offerings.

    10a PLOT would have been my first in, but I left it in case it was something else. The definition (indication) of the answer was ‘so has he lost it?’ [not just ‘it?’, Peter], which doesn’t necessarily indicate PLOT. (And ‘snubs’ doesn’t exactly mean ‘loses’ or ‘drops’, but that has been pointed out already.)

    In 26a HIGH GERMAN, ‘means of communication’ was a rather weak definition of the answer. 19a SNOW WHITE depended on 17a GRIMM, which was one of the trickiest clues.

    The grid gave us fewer crossers than usual: 9 of the clues had fewer than half of their letters checked (although the excellent 9d was readily solved – that was my first in not counting PLOT).

    Apart from this, the overall quality of the crossword, with its interesting theme, was high, and there were many excellent clues – I ticked 15 (out of 29) as I went through them.

    Thanks Crucible and PeterO.

  36. Concerning PLOT and my comment @40: I’ve re-read PeterO’s blog and Doofs’s comment @10 and can see the logic. The idea is far-fetched, as has been said, but the verbiage after the comma was necessary to make a decent surface while (indirectly) indicating the answer. Not my favourite clue in this day’s crossword!

  37. Charlotte @42

    I had not replied to Andrew @8 because I thought that what we were saying was of much significant difference; but as it has come up again, I have decided to stake out my position more clearly (and perhaps to think it through), even though I may be the only one to see it. Some would reserve the description “double definition” for cases in which the answer is a pair of different words which have happened to converge on the same spelling – such as BEAR carry and BEAR Bruno. I would certainly not go that far, as there are many words which have taken on distinct meanings despite stemming from the same etymological root – NICE being perhaps the supreme example; from the original ignorant, it has taken on meanings all over the place, past and present – and I think it is entirely valid to offer a clue with double definitions of such divergent meanings. When writing up the blog, I hesitated how to describe the clue, and Andrew @8, however inadvertently, highlights why I chose not to describe the clue as a double definition. His gives ‘service provider’ (a particular church) as the second meaning. If the answer had been just CHURCH I would be more receptive to his position (even though, as Andrew says, the meanings are closely related, and are still too close for my taste); but the answer is THE CHURCH, and if the clue is regarded as a double definition, I cannot see any shade of difference in the meaning of THE CHURCH indicated by the two. If you are happy with the use of “double definition”, in such a case, then double definition it is. Further, as ‘service provider’ (as in ISP, Internet Service Provider) provides at least an element of the cryptic, I chose to go with that description.

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