Guardian 27,119 / Chifonie

46 comments on “Guardian 27,119 / Chifonie”

1. Thanks Eileen and Chifonie.

   I enjoyed this, although I agree with the assessment of 13ac. Not only was the word obscure, but ‘eye teeth’ struck me as an obscure piece of knowledge too. Easy enough to get from checked letters, though.

   For 9D, I had IN [popular] + THE MINORITY [those under age].

2. Yes Eileen, I 14A that 13A was a bit dodgy.

3. Thanks, Tom @1 – that’s better! [As if we didn’t have ‘in’ = popular often enough.]

4. Thanks Eileen. I read 9d as IN (popular) + THE MINORITY (those under age), with “Less than 50%” as the (single) definition.

   When solving I thought that G = girl was pretty standard,like B = boy, but I see that neither is in Chambers.

   I thought 13a was a bit unfair – it’s really just an extended definition, and isn’t much help if you don’t know the word. It is in Chambers, by the way (at least in my copy), under FORE-

5. Thanks, Andrew, it’s in mine, too. I don’t know how I missed it – definitely not at my brightest and best this morning.

6. I’m so pleased to read the comments about 13ac. This was my last in, as I suspect it may have been for many, and needed a quick Internet check to make sure it existed.

7. Thank you, Eileen.

   I had less of an issue with FORETEETH than others. A bit clunky perhaps but getable enough.

   However I didn’t care for the SEWER clue. Again, perfectly soluble but what is into doing? Surely all that’s needed is “Drain small vessel”.

   Not a complaint, but I also raised an eyebrow at RODE = ‘went by car’. Perhaps others use this but I’ve not heard of it. To my mind one can ride a bus, a train, or even a taxi, but ride a car? Surely Conductor designate went by bike would have been better.

   Hey-ho, enjoyable enough and gentle start to the week.

   Nice week, all.

8. A very straightforward puzzle even by Chifonie’s standards. I am also running out of things to say.

   Thanks to Chifonie and Eileen

9. Eileen,
   Just to point out a typo in 17d. It should read taekwondo instead of taekwando

10. I agree with most of the comments but would add that 6d didn’t work at all for me. How is HEARTHRUG a definition for “in front of the fire”?

11. Thanks Chifonie and Eileen.

    FORETEETH is also in Collins, and surely ‘give your eye teeth for’ is a pretty well known expression. I can’t find g = girl in Chambers or Collins, though.

12. Thanks Eileen and Chifonie.

    The puzzle was quite straightforward but I was unable to solve 13a. Thanks for explaining what that was!

13. Thank you, Chaucer49 – amended now.

    poc @10 – I mentioned 6dn in my preamble, as an example of ‘rather less tight’ cluing – litotes intended! [I was rather surprised that Andrew didn’t comment on it and 12ac. 😉 ]

14. I thought “eaten ” was poor – had a meal is ” ate ” I think

15. I always look forward to Rufus at the start of the week, but usually Chifonie provides a suitable alternative when called upon. However, I felt slightly dissatisfied today – most was a write in. Agree with comments on 13A.

    In 6D, does Hear = Discover? That’s new for me.

    Thanks to Chifonie and Eileen.

16. I always look forward to Rufus on a Monday. And I have to admit that I am always a bit disappointed if the puzzle is by somebody else on a Monday. No offence meant to Chifonie!

17. rodders @14 – ‘eaten’ is a participle here: ‘I have eaten / had a meal’.

18. Thank you Chifonie and Eileen.

    A pleasant start to the week. As regards RE for ‘soldier’ we have come up with satisfactory examples fairly recently, one from an official army obituary (and another very recently, but I cannot remember details), as we also have with ‘g’ for girl (‘b’ for boy), pupil lists at primary school, at least in the past, to help teachers, and parents when writing birthday invitations.

19. Thanks Eileen and Chifonie.

    As others have said.

    The old chestnut “Ratio”? Time for a comment from Derek Lazenby?

20. We were briefly held up by trying to put “fronteeth” and thinking it was a typo, but as everything else went in “foreteeth” became the only option. After this gentle start I’m expecting to be pulled up short sometime during the week. Thanks Chifonie and Eileen.
    PS – today is the most difficult bot checker sum I’ve come across.

21. Dave Ellison @19 – I deliberately didn’t comment on ‘ratio’ 😉

22. Re 14 ac I think it would be more acceptable if clued as “In time soldiers give consent”.
    “RE” signifies “soldiers” and it gets over the problem that “agree” means “give consent”

23. Thanks Eileen and Chifonie.

    Just back from lunch and managed to get the two I didn’t complete on the commute this morning – SURGE and TURNOUT.

    PEREGRINATION was a new word for me so I had to cheat that a bit. Helpfully it was pretty simple to build it up from the crossers and the remaining letters in the anagram.

    Good stuff.

24. William @7 You can’t ride a car, but you can ride in a car.

    Overall pleasant Rufus-ish puzzle I got all of last night, as is usual for Sunday nights.

    Thank you Chifonie and Eileen.

25. We, too, like Rufus on a Monday but this was OK. We agree 13a was clunky but very gettable nonetheless. Thanks to everyone.

26. Thanks to Chifonie and Eileen. I had the same reactions as those already mentioned and had not encountered CHEAP AND NASTY as a phrase. Easy but enjoyable.

27. [Stuart @23, an easy way to remember PEREGRINATION is to think of the Peregrine falcon (unless you live in North America where it is called the duck hawk), they are all over the world except for polar regions and NZ. The first inkling of land one of my sons had when crossing the Atlantic to Bermuda on the Cutty Sark Tall Ships 2000 Race was one of these birds perching on top of the mast.]

28. I rather liked this. A good Monday style crossword. I admit I’d never heard of FORETEETH but it made perfect sense to me. I don’t see the problem with HEARTHRUG. One might easily discover one in front of the fire. My LOI was TURNOUT,having spent quite a long time assuming ‘solicitor’ = ‘tart’. Oh well!
    Thanks Chifonie.

29. Valentine @24 Yes, I suppose you can…I’ll get my coat.

30. Eileen
    FORETEETH is in my Collins dictionary under, er, ‘foretooth’.

    I had the same queries and doubts as others did, and I think ‘loose’ woud be a fair decription of a few of the clues. The majority, though, were satisfying to solve – including 10a HORATIO, which I mention in case there was any doubt about that.

    Thanks Chifonie and Eileen.

31. Alan B @30
    Please see comments 4 and 5. 😉

32. Eileen @31
    Yes, I had read those comments. Chambers piles everything under a headword (in this case ‘fore-‘), whereas Collins has separate entries.

33. Dave, Eileen, I was a bit bored of people being incapable of understanding the most trivially simple of arithmetic concepts and so was not going to bother. But I wouldn’t want to disappoint you! So let’s see if simple English is comprehensible instead, lol.

    Synonyms are supposed to be interchangeable are they not? So, some people, including dictionary staff, think that a ratio is a relationship. Those same people also think that the constant pi is a relationship. Hence, using the familiar circle equation as an example the following makes sense….

    The ratio has the relationship of equality with pi.

    Using the concept of synonyms, the following should also make sense…

    The relationship has the relationship of equality with the relationship.

    As this is clearly nonsense, these terms cannot therefore be synonyms.

    ***********

    I suppose you lot are due an update, by several years, so I’ll add this….

    The stats for the treatment I had for the cancer say I should need further treatment 3 to 5 years after the first treatment. Well it’s 6 1/4 years now and my blood count is still only between 1/3 and 1/2 way to the point where they give the second treatment. So yeah, I’m miles ahead of the game, yee hah and mine’s a pint! Sorry, but ya don’t get rid of me that easily ! lol

34. Alan B – my apologies: I misread Chambers for Collins.

    Thanks, Derek – but don’t shoot the messenger: bloggers only interpret the clues!
    [Very glad to hear your good news – can’t believe it’s that long.]

35. Sorry Mr Lazenby @33 – I still don’t follow. I also consider pi to be a relationship, namely between the circumference and diameter of a circle. I suspect that there is a mathematical definition of relationship you’re using that most of us are not party to (which means that you aren’t really using what thick people like me would call simple English)?

    I suspect this because I’ve never heard of “the relationship of equality” and I’m not really sure what it means. Please give it another go.

36. Derek @33

    I was already aware of your explanation of the distinction between a ratio and a relationship from a comment you posted some two years ago. Of course they are not synonyms! A ratio is actually an example of a relationship. Because of that:

    (1) you cannot interchange the two terms as if they were synonyms;

    (2) in a crossword, you can clue ‘ratio’ as ‘a relationship’ (because it is an example of it) but not the other way round, unless a definition-by-example is indicated.

    As you say (or at least implied), pi is an example of a ratio. [I know it is more properly called a constant, but its most familiar definition is ‘the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter’.]

    [And thanks for your news update,which I was pleased to read.]

37. BlueDot @35
    I’m afraid I missed your response to Derek when I posted. I might have answered your point in what I wrote, but I will happily stand by to see if Derek himself addresses it.

38. As someone who usually spends many days on a puzzle and rarely completes one at all, I was amazed to manage this one in less than hour. Made my day!

    So, many thanks to Chifonie (more like this, please) and to Eileen for the blog which, for the first time ever, I didn’t need. But thanks for all those I’ve found so useful in the past.

39. Er yes ok then. Those of you who have seen this before please skip.

    A number is only ever a number. pi is a number. Any number can appear in any relationship. We don’t call any of the rest of the numbers relationships because of that, just numbers. pi is no different, a simple numerical value.

    A ratio is used in relationships, but that doesn’t make it a relationship. That is like calling a “steering wheel” a “car” because it is used in a car. The same comment applies to a number which may form a part of a relationship, such as pi. Essentially a ratio is a statement that one is contrasting two values, which might actually be unrelated. So for example there is no relationship between my height and your height, but that doesn’t stop us comparing them via a ratio.

    A ratio is written as x::y. The values are not at that point compared, they are simply awaiting comparison. If we want to evaluate it, we put those values into a division x/y and then perform the division, we may find x/y = z, or x/y >= z or x/y > z or x/y = or > etc. The relationship exists between “x/y” and “z”, not between “x” and “y”.

    So back to those unrelated values My Height and Your Height. They can be put in a ratio “My Height :: Your Height”. If we evaluate that, then if My height / Your Height = 1 we are the same height. Those heights still have no physical relationship, their comparison relates to 1. If the result is > 1 then I am taller. If the result is < 1 then you are taller.

    My maths teacher made this totally clear well before O Level (i.e. not difficult), so I'm not sure what other teachers have been playing at!

    The first thing that causes confusion is that some values are actually related in some other way, but that relationship would be something other than a ratio containing them.

    The other thing that causes confusion is that we talk in shorthand so that it sounds like we are relating x and y via a ratio which makes the unwary think the ratio is the relationship. If we spoke in longhand it would be clear that we were actually relating x/y to z.

    For completeness, the circle. Its dimensions C and D can be compared in a ratio C :: D.

    If we evaluate it then we have

    C / D = PI

    which is composed of 3 parts

    a division that evaluates a ratio
    the equality relationship
    a number.

    NOTE that the word relationship is only attached to one of them.

    Puff, pant, puff, pant, this is hard work. I just hope it was worth it!

40. Derek @39
    [Your post is at least partly in response to mine. We must agree to differ regarding our understanding of how we define ‘relationship’. I checked my statements, to the best of my ability, against the dictionary definitions of ‘relationship’ and ‘ratio’ – and I didn’t limit myself to Chambers. We can’t take this further here (I suggest) because we have gone too far off the crossword thread. Thanks anyway.]

41. It was nice to have a change from Rufus on Monday. Perhaps we could have a difficult mid-week Rufus?

    We should be less critical of mathematical and scientific clues, otherwise, compilers will shy away from them altogether.

42. Alan, if you want, click on my name, click on the resulting Feedback link and tell me why you think a steering wheel should be called a car!

43. Derek @42
    [That is not what I think, but I hope to give you a brief explanation tomorrow in the way you suggested.]

44. This site has the claim Leading to Excellence in Math

    Derek Lazenby obviously won’t agree. 😉

    I don’t see why he is so obsessed with “ratios”

    Obviously a ratio CAN be described as a relationship! (As it is)

    However it does seem bizarre to try and “explain” ratios to the non-mathematical using pi whichis an irrational! 😉

45. [Derek @42 and me @43]
    I had a bit of difficulty with both Feedback and Message Board, so I’ll use the GD page here later today.]

46. [To Mr Lazenby et al.]
    Oh wow! That was far too much work, especially since I’m still not sure I understand. I think I’ve figured it out though: By “relationship of equality”, you mean a direct relationship, as opposed to a linear or quadratic or inverse square relationship. Moreover, the C/D ratio has a direct relationship to the number pi.

    If that still isn’t right, you should give up now, because I’ll never get it. I should have given you the disclaimer that, as an engineer, I don’t do math(s), since that’s what calculators are for!

    I will grant for that narrow definition of relationship, if I’m correct, ratio is not equivalent, but I think most us – including me – will find that narrow definition unsatisfying. In fact, narrow definitions seem antithetical to the wordplay that makes solving fun. That said, I’m a firm believer that everyone gets to have a bugbear or two about the language of others (I may go postal myself if I hear another person talk about “leveraging” assets!!)

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