Guardian Cryptic 27,127 by Puck

by

The puzzle may be found at https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/27127.

All very Puckish.The theme (anyone who solved the puzzle and claims not to have seen the theme must have been very confused) is the British animated series Danger Mouse and its characters. In addition to DANGER MOUSE himself at 19D/12D, there is PENFOLD at 7A, NERO (1D), BARON SILAS GREENBACK (20A, 16A and 14D/6D), and STILETTO MAFIOSA (16D, 25A). The last of these is a CROW (21D); ‘Colonel K’ appears in the clue for 22A, and ‘Leatherhead’ – another CROW – in 15A. Throw in a couple of looser spy references, and that covers most of the crossword. All I knew of Danger Mouse before today was the title, so a dive into Wikipedia was in order. Great fun, even if the theme is on the frivolous side.

Across
7 PENFOLD Patiently starting to hug hamster … (7)
A charade of P (‘Patiently starting’) plus ENFOLD (‘hug’). PENFOLD is a hamster in the animated TV series Danger Mouse.
8 SHERMAN … that’s confused, short of time and a little nervous, in general (7)
A charade of SHERMA, an anagram (‘confused’) of ‘hams[t]er’ (from the previous clue; the ellipses do serve a purpose here) minus the T (‘short of time’) plus N (‘a little Nervous’).
9 POLO Car in front of pillar box, wingless and slow too (4)
A charade of P (‘front of Pillar’) plus ‘[b]o[x]]’ minus its outer letters (‘wingless’) plus ‘[s]lo[w]’ (‘too’; also wingless), for the VW model.
10 AFTERDECK Part of ship where you might find tennis shoes and chair (9)
Deck tennis, deck shoes, and deck chair.
12 MORSE Somewhat dotty detective? (5)
This time ‘somewhat dotty’ suggests that dashes might be included, for the punning reference to the code.
13 NAMETAGS A spy chief enters agent’s new forms of ID (8)
An anagram (‘new’) of ‘a’ plus M (James Bond’s ‘spy chief’) plus ‘agents’.
15 RULE Regime to regret around Leatherhead (4)
An envelope (‘around’) of L (‘Leatherhead’) in RUE (‘regret’).
16 SILAS Paul’s companion still tans unevenly (5)
Odd letters (‘unevenly’) of ‘StIlL tAnS”.
17 HEEL Scumbag in wingless car? (4)
[w]HEEL[s] (‘car’) minus its outer letters (‘wingless’ again).
18 DEADLINE Closing time having passed, left drink unopened (8)
A charade of DEAD (‘passed’) plus L (‘left’) plus [w]INE (‘drink’) minus its first letter (‘unopened’).
20 BARON Lawyers working for bigwig (5)
A charade of BAR (‘lawyers’) plus ON (‘working’).
21 CONTENTED Happy once drunk, daughter drinking wine (9)
An envelope (‘drinking’) of TENT (‘wine’; this came up in last Friday’s Crucible) in CONE, an anagram (‘drunk’) of ‘once’ plus D (‘daughter’, which comes up fairly frequently).
22 LOCK Return of Colonel K’s hairpiece? (4)
A charade of LOC, a reversal (‘return’) of COL (‘colonel’) plus ‘K’.
24 MOLESTS Bugs spy sites regularly (7)
A charade of MOLE (‘spy’) plus STS (‘SiTeS regularly’).
25 MAFIOSA Ordering of a SIM card’s second for female mobster? (7)
An anagram (‘ordering’) of  ‘of a SIM’ plus A (‘cArd’s second’).
Down
1 NERO Fiddler occupying one roof (4)
A hidden answer (‘occupying’) in ‘oNE ROof’. According to the legend, Nero played th fiddle during the Great Fire of Rome in 64AD, which would have been very clever of him, since the fiddle was not invented until the best part of a milennium later (lyre, maybe, but it is by no means certain that Nero was even in Rome at the time).
2 OF COURSE Sure about supporting football club during no-score draw? Yes, sure (2,6)
A charade of OFCO, an envelope (‘during’) of F.C. (‘football club’) in 0-0 (‘no-score draw’) plus URSE, an anagram (‘about’) of ‘sure’ (the first one); ‘supporting’ indicates the order of the particles in the down light.
3 PLEASE Entertain with piano on hire (6)
A charade of P (‘piano’) plus LEASE ( ‘hire’).
4 OH CRUMBS Cor blimey! No Brit hums out 7’s response to 19 (2,6)
An anagram (‘out’) of ‘cor b[limey] hums’ less LIMEY (‘no Brit’).
5 ERNEST Name of modern establishment (6)
A hidden answer (‘of’) in ‘modERN ESTablishment’.
6   See 14
11 TANGLIEST Cut short old car’s MOT perhaps, as exterior in most messy state (9)
An envelope (‘as exterior’) of ANGLI[a] (‘old car’) minus its last letter (‘cut short’) in TEST (‘MOT perhaps’). A rather ugly formation, if anyone has ever used it.
12   See 19
14, 6 GREENBACK  Uncle Sam’s bill from Evian? (9)
A wordplay-in-the-answer: GREEN (naive) BACK is ‘Evian’. All US paper money (‘bills’), in addition to being of the same size, have a back printed in green.
16 STILETTO Toilet’s out of order, blocked by model’s 17 across (8)
An envelope (‘blocked by’) of T (Ford ‘model’; which T is your choice) in SILEOTT SILETTO or whatever, an anagram (‘out of order’) of ‘toilets’.
17 HERALDIC Like arms of female, 100, going round supermarket (8)
An envelope (‘going round’) of ALDI (‘supermarket’) in HER (‘female’) plus C (Roman numeral, ‘100’).
19, 12 DANGER MOUSE  Secret agent plants bug during a rounders game, then runs away (6,5)
An envelope (‘plants … during’) of GERM (bug’) in DANOUSE, an anagram (‘game’) of ‘a [r]ounde[r]s’ minus RR (‘runs away’).
20 BEDLAM Smile about broken deadline in madhouse (6)
An envelope (‘about’) of DL (‘broken deadline’ is dead line – D (‘dead’) plus L (‘line’)) in BEAM (‘smile’).
21 CROW One part of a murder case’s opening line (4)
A charade of C (‘Case’s opening’) plus ROW (‘line’). A ‘murder’ is the collective noun for a group of crows.
23 CASH Maybe 14 6 starts to crow after successful hijacking (4)
First letters of (‘starts to’) ‘Crow After Successful Hijacking’).
completed grid

68 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 27,127 by Puck”

  1. Phew! That was tricky. I’d only heard of Danger Mouse and Penfold. All the other references were new to me, however the parsing revealed most of them.
    We have now had a dashing detective and a dotty detective within a few weeks of each other.
    Favourite were CROW and HERALDIC.

  2. The clue for 9a also references DM’s headquarters inside a pillar box (Dangermouse fans are obsessive…)

    5d is easy enough, but in general I wish people wouldn’t just clue “name” for one of the 6718986 possibilities. And I wish I hadn’t put in an unparsed INSECTS for 24a (well, it did fit the E and the T).

  3. Great fun indeed!! Thanks to Puck; and to PeterO for much help with the theme!! I may be wrong but I seem to remember one of the characters, Penfold, often utters “oh crumbs” when things go wrong. The original Danger Mouse characters were voiced by David Jason and Terry Scott and the BBC have revived it with a new series which started in 2015. My kids absolutely loved the original!! However I think one can solve this crossword without much knowledge of the theme since it is impeccably clued.

  4. Danger Mouse was mandatory viewing when I was a teenager, so as soon as I had OH CRUMBS (which as S Panza rightly says was Penfold’s catchphrase) the rest of the themers fell very quickly, and there were enough helpful crossers for the rest to give way too. So although I feel sorry for anyone not familiar with the theme, I thought this was brilliant! I think a British newspaper should be allowed the occasional British theme…

    Thanks to Puck and PeterO

  5. Again, a theme about which I know nothing (apart from the title character). Indeed, didn’t know there was a theme until I came on here! Managed to complete the puzzle despite my lack of knowledge – the mark of a good crossword to me.

    Thank you Puck & PeterO

  6. JuneG@5 – me too! PeterO is a bit harsh in saying that “anyone who solved the puzzle and claims not to have seen the theme must have been very confused”. Not confused, Peter, just completely ignorant of the characters in DangerMouse! Favourites were AFTERDECK, DEADLINE, HERALDIC and GREENBACK. Many thanks to Puck and PeterO.

  7. A “frivolous” theme? (PeterO)
    For me, it’s always fun when clues reference popular culture. Of course there will be others, like my octogenarian mother, who won’t recognise or enjoy today’s theme. But I feel that, as long as the clueing is fair, for puzzles to have a few less highbrow or stuffy themes has to be a good thing.
    Another plus for me today was 14,6. This type of clue is a favourite of mine, but I didn’t, until today, know what to call it . . . wordplay-in-the-answer.
    Thanks to Puck and PeterO.

  8. beery…” I feel sorry for anyone not familiar with the theme…”

    Feel sorry for me then! Gobsmacked that I’d never heard of Danger Mouse.

    Still, most of this was still gettable and quite amusing.

    Thanks to Puck and PeterO

  9. Another one who knew zilch about the theme,but finished without aids in under an hour – a tribute to Puck. But why did two clues in the SE carry the answers to two in the SW (CROW,DEADLINE)?

  10. Didn’t know the theme at all, which didn’t slow me down, except that my next-to-LOI (Danger Mouse) sent me to wikipedia to give me Penfold and revealed the other thematic links.
    Totally off-topic but, as Paul pointed out in the Guardian comments, Rufus is 85 today. Many happy returns, Mr. Squires.

  11. This was interesting as I had never heard of Danger Mouse. Clues like stiletto, baron,Nero, greenback were all straightforward.SILAS came from the parsing but I was getting lost.Cant remember how I got Danger Mouse-a vague mixture of half-parsing, crossers.But it was then I googled.Without knowledge of theme PENFOLD(s) is the producer of one of two of Australia’s most expensive wines (thanks to Robert Parker and partly thanks to its devotion to quality)-I had never heard it in relation to a hamster(that was a clue I left alone until finishing).Danger Mouse only came up towards the end.

    Interesting to think how lack of knowledge affected solving time as I was watching the Atletico match at the same time.I actually think the former added 10-15 minutes to the solve and the latter maybe an hour.

    Thanks to PeterO and Puck.

  12. I’m another solver whom PeterO should feel sorry for! I do confess to having heard of Danger Mouse but I certainly didn’t pick up on the theme and yet thoroughly enjoyed solving what were all very fair clues. Thanks to Puck for an excellent challenge and to PeterO (and others) for shedding light on previously dark spaces!

  14. Put me in the ignoramus club, as another who knew nothing of Danger Mouse other than the fact that it was on TV once. I’ve never knowingly watched an episode, which seems rather a shame having now read the Wikipedia entry. Still, this was a marvellously inventive puzzle which clearly adhered to the first rule of themed puzzles, ie being gettable even if you’re ignorant of the subject matter. But ‘on the frivolous side’, PeterO? Oh come on, let your hair down a bit!

    I came to the site expecting to find out how to parse GREENBACK, there being no clear link to bottled water, until as I moved to click the link my mind reversed Evian for me. One last smile.

  15. I’d like to know how anyone unfamiliar with the cartoon could possibly solve 7a (to pick one at random) without consulting external sources. I had heard of DM but had never seen it and didn’t know any of the names. Impeccable cluing is of little use when you don’t know what is being clued.

  16. poc @15 – the wordplay is clear enough, and there are some helpful crossers. I remember the show very well, but I didn’t recall STILETTO MAFIOSA, BARON GREENBACK’s forename or NERO, and none of those held me up.

  18. Thanks Puck and PeterO.

    Like Peter, I knew DANGER MOUSE but none of the characters. I also got stuck on Evian and forgot about the crow murder. Like molonglo @9, I was somewhat perplexed by answers appearing in two of the clues … a stream of consciousness?

    After bunging in PENFOLD from the wordplay, I just assumed it was a type of hamster. Of course, themes don’t appeal to everyone but it is much easier to start filling a grid with theme words than just a random collection of answers.

  19. @poc

    May I suggest that you did not pick 7a “at random” – it is the only solution in today’s crossword that fits your argument, especially as you confess to having heard of Danger Mouse – the only other solution requiring any knowledge of the theme at all.

  20. Thank you Puck and PeterO.

    I knew nothing of the DANGER MOUSE series. On googling I see that a John PENFOLD designed the most famous “pillar boxes”, often known as Penfolds, perhaps Gladys @2 might know if the DANGER MOUSE character was named after him/them?

    The clues for AFTERDECK, OH CRUMBS, GREENBACK and CROW were great!

  21. It is a very long time since I watched 19/12 but I had no trouble with the themed clues.

    Very enjoyable, thank you Puck and PeterO

  22. I enjoyed this puzzle a lot and had almost as much fun reading solvers’ comments about the theme! Just like pvb @1, I knew only Danger Mouse and Penfold of the theme, and knowing more would definitely have made this a quicker solve, but I had my fun solving many good clues the old-fashioned way.

    I thought 8a SHERMAN and 5d ERNEST rather weak, and perhaps 14/6d GREENBACK too, but the rest made this my sort of puzzle as it made me think. I have no particular favourites, but, now that I am aware of all the theme words and references, I must compliment Puck on the way he wove the theme into this puzzle.

    Thanks to Puck and PeterO.

  23. Hey–it’s the one and only British kids’ TV show I actually watched over here. The long passage of time since I last saw the show, however, allowed me to remember only DM and Penfold (and the pillar box), so I had to go look up some of the rest. PENFOLD was my first of the theme clues–indeed, my first one in.

    Anyway, nice trip down memory lane, for sure.

  25. Cracker! Many thanks both.

    SHERMAN comes perilously close to a derived anagram but who cares?

    Include me with JuneG et al as another totally ignorant of the theme until PENFOLD emerged and I put it into Google with ‘hamster’.

    CROW has joined my short list of most elegant clues.

    Many thanks for the fun, Puck.

    Nice week, all.

  26. Tricky but the clues seem quite good.

    I’m one who prefers the old version of the series, which I’ve always seen as brilliant.

    Thanks both.

  27. Lively clue for last in 21d. The bulb lit above my wife’s head and we finished a great puzzle. Thanks to everyone.

  30. Thanks Puck and PeterO

    I knew just enough about Danger Mouse to get Penfold from the theme; but no more. A bit sloppy in places (some meaningless surfaces, and DEADLINE appearing in one clue and also as another solution). Some have admired SHERMAN, but I don’t think that it’s entirely fair to have most of the anagram fodder in a different clue; also “a little nervous” for N is suspect. Three clues with product placement (9a, 11d and 17d). Is this within the Guardian’s guidelines?

    I did like GREENBACK (without seeing the Danger Mouse reference) and CROW.

  32. I enjoyed this immensely. I wasn’t the biggest DM fan back in the day for some reason, but remember it incredibly fondly.

    Starting at 7 across, this one bugged me because I got the gist of the clue, but couldn’t think of a synonym for hamster beginning with a p (and I’m pretty good at furry critters). I did a pass of the whole set and got a few (STILETTO, SILAS, CROW, BARON included) but was frustrated by others that I felt I should have got – like 4 down.

    Returning to 7A I had all the crossers though, and with the suspected P I got the answer. Neat! I thought, a Dangermouse reference! Then for once in my crosswording career I actually spotted a theme. And I’ve got BARON and SILAS! What was that one I couldn’t get – ended with a K? GREENBACK! And 4D, the “Cor Blimey” one – OH CRUMBS! It was a penny drop moment that broke the whole thing apart in a really satisfying way (whilst reminding me quite how charming Dangermouse is). My favourite of the year so far (and we’ve had some good Pauls, an Arachne, and a Tramp only yesterday, so that’s saying something).

  33. @20, addendum, “J W PENFOLD also gave his name to the sidekick of 1980s cartoon character Danger Mouse. Danger Mouse and Penfold even lived in a pillar box on Baker Street, London, although their home was an ‘Anonymous’ Pillar Box, rather than a Penfold.”

    I don’t suppose many people know about this pillar box, I cannot find any synonym site mentioning it, unless Chambers does?

  34. Thanks to PeterO for the excellent blog, and to others for your comments.

    This was one theme where I didn’t need to do too much research myself. I wrote two complete Danger Mouse children’s annuals back in the early 1980s, including stories, feature articles, cartoon strips (someone else did the artwork), games and even crosswords (although simple and non-cryptic ones, given the target audience).

    So when Danger Mouse reappeared on our screens fairly recently, I couldn’t resist. I did try and set the puzzle so that it could be solved with little (if any) knowledge of the theme, so I’m glad to see that I more or less succeeded.

    molonglo @9 – you make a fair point about DEADLINE and CROW appearing as both solutions and words in other clues. I would normally avoid this, unless purposely making some thematic point. On this occasion, my original clues did avoid it, as they contained the numerical cross-references (18 for DEADLINE, and 21 down for CROW) but these were removed at edit stage, when the crossword editor thought there were too many cross-references in the puzzle – and that this was something that solvers don’t really like. Having been inspired originally by Araucaria’s puzzles, I tend to use a fair amount of cross-referencing, so I would be interested to hear others’ views on its use – whether it is liked or loathed, and if liked, how much would be too many. I would however guess that the answers to the first of these questions might wander into Marmite territory.

  35. This was too difficult for me to finish, so I was grateful for the blog, which helped me appreciate the ingenuity of many of the clues. Favourites were OF COURSE, CROW, the wordplay in the subsidiary part of 4D, plus the way 7A and 8A are run together.

    Agree with Gladys @ 2 about the vague definition at 5D. Also think there’s a problem with the cryptic reading at 13A: no matter how one interprets the apostrophe-s, the grammar is wrong. Pity, since surely the same idea could have been presented correctly, e.g. “A spy chief entering new agent’s forms of ID” (?)

    Thanks to Puck and PeterO.

  36. @ Puck.
    Have just posted in your defence on the Guardian thread, but I would like to answer your questions.
    No 1. I don’t mind it, if not excessive.No 2. Five per puzzle, absolute maximum.
    Thanks for today’s, sheer magic.

  37. Puck @34
    I quite like cross-referenced clues; however I don’t like lots of references to the same clue – opaque until it has been solved, then often all too obvious.

  38. Spooky moment for me: moments before starting the puzzle, I had been trying – unsuccessfully – to remember the name of Danger Mouse – the DJ, not the cartoon, of which I was unaware. Then halfway through the puzzle, there he was! So weird.

    Faves were CROW and GREENBACK. Very clever.

  39. Puck @34

    I like some cross-referencing (especially but not only in the context of themes), as I think it adds a bit of complexity, interest and challenge, but as Maysie said it must not be excessive – and that is a matter of judgement on the part of the setter.

    An example of what I don’t usually enjoy is having to face, say, a quarter of the grid where unsolved cross-referenced answers cross each other and the theme hasn’t revealed itself yet. It depends to some extent on the types of clue – in particular whether solvers (in general) can be expected to solve one or two ‘key’ ones with no help or minimal help from crossers.

    Finally, I thought today’s puzzle was completely fair, and I enjoyed seeing the theme start to develop while solving (at 19/12, 7 and 4) and later, fully, in the blog.

  40. @Puck
    I like cross-referenced clues very much; however the editor might like them less than he used to given that there are so many people solving the puzzles nowadays on phones and tablets which are less cross-ref-friendly (at least that’s my experience)

  41. @puck
    I like cross-referencing. It is generally a sign that there is extra thought gone into the puzzle. I agree with Muffin about the disappointment of everything falling once a single reference has been solved. No particular limit – sometimes it’s quite fun when it’s very difficult to get into a puzzle because of the unknown references. I also have no problem with words in clues appearing in solutions, and repetitions in clues (such as wingless, deadline). I am always baffled when people think it must be a careless oversight.

  42. I’m not a fan of cross-referenced clues, I have to admit. I’m an American, so you can discount my opinion accordingly, since this is after all a British publication (and a British art form). But my view is that the more cross-referenced clues there are, the harder it is for the solver to get a good entry point into the puzzle. This is particularly so where there’s a network of cross-referenced clues; if one or more of them is opaque, the solver is left with no decent way in.

  43. Thanks Puck and PeterO

    Cross-referencing, as other have pointed out, can be a double-edged sword, either opening everything up too fast, or slowing everything down until a crucial PDM. However, overall, I don’t object. As far as number is concerned, I don’t think there can be a set limit. This thought is triggered by remembering the puzzle, not too long ago but I can’t remember who set it, where there were 8 or 10 clues, each one letter longer than the previous, and each an anagram of the previous with a letter added. That one was tremendous.

  44. Just noticed a small slip in Peter0’s excellent blog: 17d is envelope of T in SILETTO [or STILETO], not SILEOTT. Personally (@puck) I enjoy this kind of cross-referencing, as much of it as you like, but not in every puzzle. As it happens I solved STILETTO first and was led to HEEL by that rather than vice versa – that fluidity being one of the pleasures of a crossword with this cross-ref feature. I’m another one who knew nothing of Danger Mouse and its cast beyond that title, but managed to solve without recourse to looking up, a tribute to the puzzle’s fairness, so thank you from me as from others.

  45. mrpenney @42
    Well said. Too many cross-referenced clues is a bad thing – and what is ‘too many’ should be down to a setter’s good judgement.
    There was an example a few months ago of a themed crossword in which one answer was the key to many others, and the clue to that answer was found to be ‘opaque’ (to the point of being unfair) by more than one experienced solver. It was a cause of some frustration!

  46. Thanks to Puck and PeterO. I’m late to the party because I’ve been sitting all day in a doctor’s office. I’m another who has no experience with DANGER MOUSE but I got PENFOLD early on and consulted Google thereafter for help. I took a long time getting CROW (very clever) and AFTERDECK, but I did get through eventually. As to Puck’s query, I agree with mrpenney. For me (in the US) the cross references if multiplied too much are intimidating.

  48. I admire the way some setters manage to incorporate several thematic answers into their grids and surely cross-referenced clues are a natural progression from that. I’ve come across several examples in Araucaria’s “Monkey Puzzles” book. I agree with muffin @37 that too many references to just one key clue can be annoying but in this particular instance, reading Puck @34, it seems the setter has had his work devalued by some rather eccentric editing.

  49. Never heard of DANGER MOUSE here in Alaska, but as 7 had to be PENFOLD I did a search for a hamster named Penfold. That got me to DANGER MOUSE. I had already solved all the other theme entries without knowing the theme, which is to say that Puck did an excellent job of cluing. My downfall was not knowing the car model POLO.

    Thanks Puck and PeterO.

  50. Lovely puzzle, Puck, and apart from the name, I knew nothing about DM. It wasn’t till I googled my LOI, PENFOLD that I even realised there is a theme. I’m amazed how many seemingly innocent answers are in fact themers.

    I don’t mind the occasional cross-ref, but no more than about three per puzzle, and I don’t particularly like multiple references to one clue, or intertwined references.

    And I hated the cross-reference in 8! (Because I didn’t get it!)

  51. Thanks to Puck and PeterO. Really loved this crossword. Just easy enough to complete, but a real challenge, for me anyway. CROW my fave. Happy with cross-refs.

  52. quenbarrow @44

    Typo corrected. Thanks. Not only did I get 15D STILETTO before 17A HEEL, I likewise got 23D CASH before 14/6D GREENBACK.

    Puck @34

    Thanks for your contribution to the blog, as well as the puzzle. As you may see, I have no objection to cross-references – used judiciously as here. When in doubt, reverse engineer them (also the reference to 7A in the clue to 4D suggested that the former was a name, which helped). 7A PENFOLD and 19/12D DANGER MOUSE are the only answers which are tied to the theme, and they were among my last entries, so that it was a pleasant surprise to find out the extent of the other references already solved. Evidently this is how you intended it, and it certainly worked for me.

  53. Despite being someone not very familiar with Danger Mouse and its characters [only from hearsay], I’ll have to say this was great fun.
    Quite an achievement to include so many theme words into one of a limited set of grids.

    As to cross-references, I am not a particular fan.
    The first line of Simon S’s comment @43 contains what the main reasons against are for me.
    Also, crosswords with multiple references to one or two specific clues, probably tell us that there is a theme.
    And that it would be handy to solve these clues first.
    Moreover, I find that cross-references can ruin the surface of a clue.
    Change 2Od’s ‘deadline’ into ’18’ and perhaps, you’ll see what I mean.
    Yes, Araucaria was very keen on cross-references which I found more often than not a bit off-putting.
    That said, I am not totally against them but they should serve a purpose and not be overdone (whatever that is).

    Many thanks to Puck & PeterO.

    ps, Simon, the crossword you referred to was indeed fabulous, although I wouldn’t say that puzzle had the type of cross-references that we talk about here.
    It was compiled for the Indy by Donk (aka Screw at this place).
    At least once a year he comes up with a stunner and this was last year’s highlight.

  54. puck@34

    I like cross-referencing, too, and I would like more of it from other setters. I remember Araucaria’s especially with pleasure. Their use seems to have dropped off in recent times; so, too, has the use of Ninas.

    I am not sure about the density of cross-referencing. I have wondered if it would be possible to compile a crossword (of size n << 15, if necessary) completely of "cross referenced" clues. It might be necessary to give the solver a start with a clue such as: 4 3 (5), where the answer is THREE.

    Thanks PeterO and Puck

  55. Can’t believe how many people haven’t heard of Danger Mouse! One of my favourites as a kid in the 80s.

    Puck @34, as for the cross-references, any technique inspired by the master is fine by me.

  56. I don’t mind a bit of cross-referencing, preferably where the answers don’t cross each other.
    Spotted the theme as “spies” and assumed that Danger Mouse must be one. Didn’t know the programme so all the clever references to it passed me by. I parsed 8a unsatisfactorily as SHA = “that’s” without either T for time, with ERM and N both indicated by “a little nervous”. I didn’t solve PENFOLD. How could I?
    I thought 21d was very good.
    Thanks to Puck and PeterO

  57. On the topic of cross-referencing, I don’t mind – and in fact often enjoy – this is in small doses of, say, 3-4 per grid. I do, however, struggle when there are multiple clues cross-referencing back to a single “key” clue. This can either make the puzzle too easy because you solve the key straight away, or impossibly difficult if the key is too elusive.

    Oh, and for this puzzle – top marks! Thanks Puck for an enjoyable treat. It was definitely a difficult one (for me) and I actually failed on 3 clues but it didn’t diminish my appreciation at all.

  58. Late to the party as usual. A great puzzle. Like others I only got the theme when I got PENFOLD 3rd from last and Googled it. I was disappointed by deadline and crow and if the editor didn’t want son any cross references he could have at least replaced crow with chat say. I haven’t come up with an alternative for deadline. Many thanks Puck and PeterO and everyone.

  59. It was only bloody mindedness that kept me going to the end having abandoned this three times. I have heard the name DANGERMOUSE but knew nothing about it. Having consulted Mr Google, I was able to tease out the characters albeit with some difficulty and then s l o w l y got to the end. Didn’t enjoy it much though!
    Mind you,I thought CROW was brilliant!
    Thanks Puck (I think)

  60. Ths was my first Guardian puzzle in many a month but as I was on a short train journey I thought I’d fill the hour with a diversion via the smartphone.

    I too had only heard of DM and Penfold and had never seen an epsiode. (Not surprising as my TV consumption ammounts to at most 3 hours a week.) However all the themed answers were solvable although some were a little hard to be absolutely certain of. SILAS for one!)

    Interesting to note that the “tinkering” of the “illustrious Ed” left such things as the glaring repeated DEADLINE! (I don’t know if I was more surprised by the results of the editing or by the fact that any editing was actually being done! 😉 )

    My main reason for posting is to comment on the negative comments on clue cross-referencing. I seem to remember that in the heady days of Araucaria, Bunthorne etc we had a lot of this and I for one miss this. For me cross-referencing always added that extra bit of abtsraction to trouble the poor solver. Obviously the current “creme de la creme” don’t agree. Hey-ho!

  61. BNTO @60
    There has been plenty of support for cross-referencing too, from me (“it adds a bit of complexity, interest and challenge”) and many others. If that means I’m not in the creme de la creme so be it – I’m happy to be basking in the milk.

  62. I’m inclined to agree with poc @ 15 about 7A. I cheated on this clue early on and immediately wondered about a DM theme. I accept its a very clever clue in retrospect though.

    Some of the clues I felt were over-contrived but the theme makes up for it.

    Cross references – 3 max I would say great if at least one of them is solvable on their own.

    Thanks Puck & Peter

  63. Missed the DM theme until wikipedaing PENFOLD as the last but one entry. Also missed the parsing of OH CRUMBS.

    The clue I had to Wikipedia first was SILAS, obviously had to be a biblical character, but not very au fait with them.

  64. Well, I always thought the Crossword Editor was something of a Mythical Beast. But no, alive and well and wrecking perfectly good crosswords apparently…

  65. Alan B @61

    Sorry Alan if my comment left you slighted. However I hope you can take some consolation from my previous comment’s quotation marks.

    I too am happy to “bask in the milk”

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