A clever Monday offering from Imogen, which can be solved online here.
At the risk of being accused of herresy, this was not as perfect a crossword as I’d expect from Imogen.
Many of the clues are up to his usual high standard, with a few being exceptional (14a, 16ac,21ac, 5dn, 8dn, 20dn, 22dn were my favourites).
However, I have a couple of minor quibbles – 11ac is a bit slack, and unless I’m mistaken, Lysander was not from Athens (indeed, he fought and defeated the Athenians). (Edit – some comments below are suggesting that Imogen was referring to Lysander from “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, but if that is the case, I don’t think the clue is any better, as that would be like saying that “Macbeth” was a character from Scotland, which, while technically correct, is still very loose.)
Thanks, Imogen.
| Across | ||
| 1 | MOB CAP | Wipe over new cab bonnet (3,3) |
| MOP (“wipe”) over *(cab)
A mob cap was a Georgian-era bonnet. |
||
| 5 | BEGGARLY | Poor Billy, regularly infested with moth (8) |
| B(i)L(l)Y infested with EGGAR (“a type of “moth”) | ||
| 9 | IGNORANT | Not aware Italian worker has lost son (8) |
| (s)IGNOR (“Italian”, without the “s” (son)) + ANT (“worker”) | ||
| 10 | LAPS UP | Eagerly accepts two drinks (4,2) |
| LAP + SUP (“two drinks”) | ||
| 11 | COKE | “Soft drink?”, one snorts (4) |
| Double definition, although I think the clue requires a question mark. | ||
| 12 | BROTHER ASS | St Francis’s body beginning to strengthen after long periods on soup (7,3) |
| S(trengthen) after ERAS (“long periods”) on BROTH (“soup”), so BROTH-ERAS-S
Apparently, Francis of Assisi used to refer to his body as Brother Ass. |
||
| 13 | SAMPLE | Extract from record small, more than enough (6) |
| S(mall) + AMPLE (“more than enough”) | ||
| 14 | SURINAME | What family shares includes island country (8) |
| SURNAME (“what family shares”) includes I(sland) | ||
| 16 | ST ANDREW | Fisherman‘s position on water’s edge (2,6) |
| STAND (“position”) + RE (“on”) + W(ater) | ||
| 19 | DACTYL | Period in which court is closed: left on foot (6) |
| DAY (“period”) in which CT (“court”) is closed + L(eft), so DA-CT-Y-L | ||
| 21 | DOMAIN NAME | Set of labels dotted about, bearing the same important title (6,4) |
| Do. (ditto, so “the same”) + MAIN (“important”) + NAME (“title”) | ||
| 23 | EELS | Slippers into which these go (not at the front) (4) |
| (h)EELS go into slippers | ||
| 24 | HIJACK | Make a grab: hello, sailor! (6) |
| HI (“hello”) + JACK (“sailor”) | ||
| 25 | PETTIFOG | After exercise, got fit? Wrong to quibble (8) |
| P.E. (“exercise”) + *(got fit) | ||
| 26 | LYSANDER | In both hands, you may grasp smooth character from Athens (8) |
| In L(eft) and R(ight) (“both hands”), YE (“you”) grasping SAND (“smooth”), so L(Y(SAND)E)R
As far as my limited Greek history goes, I think this clue is wrong, as Lysander was not from Athens, but Sparta. (see comments below for alternative views on who the setter was referring to) |
||
| 27 | REMOTE | Controller fitted with 5 down? Unlikely (6) |
| A remote controller is fitted with buttons (see 5 down) | ||
| Down | ||
| 2 | ON GOOD AUTHORITY | Love fine 8, say, in tiny new case, as one may well believe (2,4,9) |
| O (“love”) + GOOD (“fine”) + AUTHOR (“8, say” (see 8 down)) in *(tiny), so O-N-GOOD AUTHOR-ITY | ||
| 3 | CLOSE UP | Leave no gaps for picture (5,2) |
| Double definition | ||
| 4 | PLAY BY EAR | Fruit brought round rest area — take it as it comes (4,2,3) |
| PEAR (“fruit”) brought round LAY BY (“rest area”) | ||
| 5 | BUTTONS | Panto character putting bum on seat, no worry (7) |
| BUTT (“bum”) + ON S(eat) (“no worry” indicates that you remove EAT (a synonym of “worry”)) | ||
| 6 | GULCH | Caught lover’s head in embrace, falling into ravine (5) |
| C(aught) + L(over) in HUG, and the whole thing reversed (indicated by “falling”) | ||
| 7 | ASPIRIN | Poisoner I contact, lacking ultimate drug (7) |
| ASP (poisonous snake, so “poisoner”) + I + RIN(g) (“contact”, lacking ultimate) | ||
| 8 | LOUISA MAY ALCOTT | She wrote automatically, so needing editing (6,3,6) |
| *(automatically so) | ||
| 15 | RED-LETTER | Soundly interpreted character as special (3-6) |
| Homophone (indicated by “soundly”) of READ LETTER (“interpreted character”) | ||
| 17 | NIAGARA | An Indian tune, popular, rises and falls (7) |
| A RAGA (“an Indian tune”) +IN (“popular”), and the whole thing reversed, indicated by “rises”, so NI-AGAR-A | ||
| 18 | WRAPPER | Striker puts on women’s jacket (7) |
| RAPPER (“striker”) puts on W(omen) | ||
| 20 | CAESIUM | Fragments of music: A, E, and Cs (7) |
| *(music a e).
Cs is the chemical symbol for Caesium |
||
| 22 | NAKED | No head wound without 18 (5) |
| (s)NAKED (“wound”, without its head (initial letter)) | ||
*anagram
26a. Perhaps Imogen was referring to the character, Lysander, in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” which takes place in Athens.
Thanks Imogen and loonapick
What’s the crossword editor doing to us? Monday with Imogen rather than Rufus, and (as yet unattempted) Anto in the Quiptic!
I found this hard, and it was a DNF in fact, as I had to reveal the second word in 12a. I didn’t see the parsing of NAKED either. I liked PLAY BY EAR and NIAGARA.
Pedants’ corner: asps are venomous, not poisonous.
Agree with trenodia @1, hence character from Athens refers to character in a play, rather than the usual reference to a Greek letter.
While any alternative to Rufus is welcome to me, I found this a lot harder than any of last week’s puzzles. In fact it took me longer than yesterday’s Azed. If this is Monday’s what’s in store for the rest of the week?
Good to have a monday toughie. All but 1 for me as I couldn’t get beggarly despite having the bly envelope.
I’d favour the occasional stiffer test on mondays to get the brain in gear!
At first I thought this was a nice change and quite OK for a Monday. But then encountering some convoluted parsing and obscure words I certainly don’t think it suitable for a Monday.
Enjoyed a lot of it though.
Thank you, Loonapick, went in easily enough but needed your parsing of NAKED.
Enjoyed this and although I wrote in BROTHER ASS from the clue construction, had to Google it to find out why.
Never knew SURINAME could be spelled with an E.
Don’t quite see what’s going on with the “dotted about” part. There’s usually a dot inside a domain name but “dotted about”? Must be missing something.
Bravi to those who spotted the Shakespearean Lysander – went over my head completely and was happy to vaguely know he was Greek.
Enjoyable start to the week, many thanks, Imogen.
Come back Rufus, all is forgiven!
Thanks Imogen and loonapick. A Rufus-free Monday is a good Monday for me, but I don’t get how “falling” in 6 indicates a reversal in a down clue. Is it not going up instead of down? Especially since 17 uses “rises” to also indicate a reversal. Are “rise” and “fall” synonymous now?
Almost indistinguishable from a Rufus – kidding! Tough but I finished. Not convinced by the definition in 21a, as William@6. Personally, I doesn’t like ‘falling’ to denote reversal in 6d. Falling means ‘going down’ not ‘going up’. Lots of great clues though, so an unexpected Monday treat.
Steve@8, we crossed.
I started this, then began to worry about what had happened to Rufus, it was so hard – thought I would check the entry in fifteensquared, whereupon I spotted that Imogen was the setter!
I do not like a hard Cryptic on Monday since I need time to also tackle the Quiptic.
All the same, thanks to Imogen, and especially to loonapick.
Hovis@9 and 10. Yes we did. I had to look down to see your comment below mine. Or do I mean I had to look up to see your comment above mine? I’m so confused!
Steve@12, I like it 🙂 Perhaps falling to mean ‘going up’ needs some lateral thinking.
We agree with all Williams comments. We completed it , admittedly taking longer than most Mondays, and had a few parsing problems. But we enjoyed it. Tuesday is our long day out, when we would welcome an easy solve! Thanks Imogen and Loonapick. Lots of smiles here
I probably spent as long solving this as the regular Rufus. In the latter case, 90% of clues go in straight away, then it’s blank stares at some cd that I don’t get. Today, slow and steady wins the race. I liked the rare application of brainpower on a Monday, and very much liked 20d, but there was too much dodgy stuff to rate the puzzle highly.
William @6, I sorely wanted to Google BROTHER ASS just to check the solution, but I rather feared what murky and unpleasant reaches of the internet I might be led down …
Thanks Imogen, loonapick
A bonus, gratefully received. When Nutmeg did Monday a while back she made it easy, and I wondered if this would be the same. Either it wasn’t intended, or easy isn’t in Imogen’s toolbox. Favourites were CAESIUM, EELS, ST ANDREW, BROTHER ASS (new to me, along with eggar), DACTYL.
8d is a great anagram. It must be very disappointing for the setter sometimes, to be obliged to enumerate the solutions.
I agree about ‘falling’ being odd.
Hovis@13, lateral thinking is one thing. Living in Bizarro World is another 😉
I can’t help thinking that this one would have been better suited to the prize slot. A fine crossword but not one that will appeal to beginners and Rufus fans. All felt a bit old school and elitist to me.
Thanks to Imogen and loonapick
HCLUG is ‘falling’ head-first, not ‘slipping’, into ravine, where is the problem?
Loved it .No quibbles at all.Lovely change for a Monday especially when there is a disappointing Genius.
As a chemist, I loved 20d.
A raga is not really a tune, more like a key or a mode.
I enjoyed it, so my thanks to Imogen and loonapick.
To Cookie @19. If the clue had said ‘falling head-first’ I doubt that so many would have objected. You can fall in any orientation so the head-first seems to be needed imo.
Thanks to Imogen and loonapick. Tough going for me. New to me were MOB CAP,, EGGARS as moth, BROTHER ASS, and EELS as slippers, and to be certain I had to look up Cs as CAESIUM.
Is there not a case for ignoring the direction of the clue and taking the “falling” in 6D to mean “coming to ruin”?
This, surprisingly for an Imogen, was one of the best ‘plain’ (non-themed) crosswords I have tackled this year. Apart from a couple of niggles, I thought this was constructed, and pitched, so well that I found it hard to believe this was the same Imogen whose puzzles earlier this year I found so turgid that I stopped doing them.
My two niggles were 11a COKE, in which I thought the ‘?’ should have gone at the end of the clue instead of in the middle. and 6d GULCH, where there is no indication of a reversal (but there would have been if ‘head first’ had been written into the clue, as Hovis said [sorry Cookie!]).
I highlighted 9 clues as favourites: 12a BROTHER ASS, 14a SURINAME, 16a ST ANDREW, 24a HIJACK, 25a PETTIFOG, 26a LYSANDER [not spotting the possible looseness in ‘Athens’], 4d PLAY BY EAR, 8d LOUISA MAY ALCOTT and 20d CAESIUM. CAESIUM is the kind of clue that I yearn to write (as a ‘rookie’ setter) but today had the pleasure of solving instead!
Many thanks to Imogen and loonapick.
Where’s Rufus? I want my £2 back! Not only that but we get Imogen instead. Yuck!! Thank you to Loonapick for making sense of all the ugliness.
muffin @2
I’m aware the asp is not poisonous, but, being venomous, it can poison us – hence ‘poisoner’, which I found ok.
I’m not the Simon @ 26! I thought this was an excellent puzzle.
Watch this person leaving the platform bungee jumping (scroll to 2.00), she is not diving, she is falling, her head goes down…
I consistently find Imogen the hardest of all the Guardian setters. Some brilliant clues but overall a hard relentless slog.
I can make no sense of the definition provided for 21 ac.
“Set of labels”? Dotted about? What’s “bearing” doing?
Neither do I understand 27 ac.
A remote is fitted with buttons, so what’s “unlikely” doing there?
Could someone please explain?
Plus the cryptic grammar in 18 dn seems wrong to me.
Great anagram at 8 dn though.
Thanks S & B
jeceris@31. Yes a few of us have commented on 21a and I’m still none the wiser. For 27a, unlikely is the definition, as in a remote chance. The first part is a cryptic definition. Not sure what you feel is wrong with 18d – looks fine to me.
Cookie @29
On re-reading the clue, I can see how ‘head’, having done duty to get the L of GULCH, might, at a stretch, also team up cryptically (as in the surface reading) with ‘falling’ to indicate a headlong fall. I don’t think I would ever get away with that, but it seems Imogen did!
I really enjoyed this, though can’t really see DOMAIN NAME definition as being a good one. Favourites were HIJACK, PETTIFOG, IGNORANT and EELS. Many thanks to Imogen and loonapick.
Bit of an odd replacement for Rufus!
Alan B @33, I am sure that Imogen did not mean ‘head’ to do double-duty.
Cookie @35
In that case, unfortunately, I cannot see any reversal indicator at all. Either ‘tumbling’ or (more convincingly) ‘falling headlong’ would have worked for me.
drofle @34
I too thought that DOMAIN NAME was defined too whimsically at first, but bearing in mind that the parts of a domain name that are delimited by the dots are actually called ‘labels’ I think ‘set of labels dotted about’ is not bad.
This is my second attempt to post today. Something wrong with the CAPTCHA.
Anyway, I liked the puzzle despite it being much harder than usual for a Monday. Still, I finished it with REMOTE being LOI.
REMOTE= unlikely for whoever it was who queried it.
Not really convinced by the Shakespearean justification for LYSANDER- more likely to have been a mistake, I think.
Some goodies though-St ANDREW,DACTYL,COKE and HIJACK.
Thanks Imogen.
Certainly no “Rufus Monday”, this – but a good challenge. My main beef is with 6d – I cannot come to terms with “falling” as a reversal indicator, neither in an across nor a down clue. Why not “Caught lover’s head in embrace, climbing ravine”?
Never heard of BROTHER ASS but it was easy to guess from the wordplay and crossers.
And I agree that COKE clueing was a bit weak. There are so many ingenious ways that word could have been clued!
I don’t get why people have difficulty with LYSANDER. Once I’d figured out the wordplay, the definition looks pretty obvious to me. “Character” immediately suggests a character in a play. And the first place to look for a play must surely be the Bard himself! Hence “from Athens” narrows it down neatly.
If the definition part of a clue had beem “Queen, near Athens”, and the solution TITANIA, surely no-one would have quibbled?!
Alan B @27
Are we “poisoned” by venom? I suppose so, just about.
I’m afraid that loonapick’s “poisonous snake” in the blog is inaccurate, though 🙂
Best Imogen ever by a long chalk. What a pleasant surprise for a Monday. (Long may it remain Rufus free!)
I totally agree with Alan B @ 25 except that I think the “?” in 11A is actually in the correct place.
Nothing wrong with any of the other clues. “Character from Athens” is very clear.
Muffin @2
OED has
poisonous
…
1. Containing, or of the nature of, poison; having the properties of a poison; venomous.
So you’re wrong again! 😉 (and loonapick is exonerated)
BNTO
Lots of references to the differences between venomous and poisonous. Here’s one:
https://www.thoughtco.com/venomous-vs-poisonous-1968412
Apart from 6dn (where I agree with those who aren’t convinced by “falling”), I found this a most interesting and enjoyable puzzle, with 20dn my COD. Thanks, Imogen.
muffin @43
So the OED is wrong in your opinion again
Sadly you’re mixing up scientific use with common use. The OED merely reflects common use which is after all what determines how a language develops. (Often this is based on erronoeous ideas but if this usage continues the “meaning” of words actually shifts)
I do believe that crosswords such as the Guardian reflect dictionary definitions rather than more restrictive scientific ones. In these terms poisonous and venomous are synonymous.
Perhaps there’s a cryptic in “New Scientist”! 😉
BNTO
I expect that the OED is referring to the metaphorical usage – “he’s poisonous” is more or less the same as “he’s venomous”. I don’t believe that you can maintain that the literal meanings are the same though, in view of all the evidence to the contrary!
I recognise that dictionaries do reflect usage, but I wish that they would be more prepared to add “incorrectly”. I’ll just say “epicentre”…
btw there is an occasional crossword in the New Scientist, but it isn’t cryptic.
To clarify further, I’ve no objection in principle to words taking on new meanings. What I always object to – as I think we all should – is words with distinct meanings coming to be interchangeable, as this actually degrades the language, removing potential shades of meaning. Take “irritate” and “aggravate” for example…
I agree with your comments on degradation of the language. However it is a fact of life that language does tend to degrade in this way sadly.
What I was really objecting to was your comment I’m afraid that loonapick’s “poisonous snake” in the blog is inaccurate, though ?. This was “inaccurate” and perhaps even a little impolite.
BTW I don’t think the OED is referring to a ” metaphorical usage” for posisonous = venomous as it includes the following two quotes.
1665 R. Howard & Dryden Indian-queen iii, in R. Howard Four New Plays 156 Yet we destroy the poisonous Vipers young.
1789 W. Paterson Narr. Four Journeys Country of Hottentots 163 The Kouse Band, or Garter Snake, is another of the poisonous reptiles of that country.
Yes, I agree and apologise to loonapick.
Your examples seem to show that the “poisonous” dates back a long way. I’m not surprised – I think that “venomous” was introduced more recently, to make the distinction that we’ve been discussing. Could you check a date in the OED? I only have the Shorter, which doesn’t seem to give date for this usage (though it does give some fairly early ones for different meanings!)
I did some Googling to try to sort put “venom”, “poison” and “toxin”. Apparently most snake venoms are proteins, so would probably be harmless if ingested, as they would be broken down by digestive enzymes.
Muffin@48 my personal pet hate is regularly used to mean frequently, as used recently by non other than Nimrod in the Independent.
Weighing in on this puzzle “the day after”. Very busy and long work day combined with a puzzle that I found challenging (especially for a Monday, as others have noted). MOB CAP (my LOI) and BROTHER ASS were both new to me, but very gettable from the wordplay. I struggled with the definition portion of 21ac — the “dotted about” part was fine with me, but I didn’t like “set of labels”. Thanks to Alan B @37 for explaining why this was indeed a correctly worded definition. My favorite was IGNORANT. Thanks to Imogen and loonapick. And now – on to Tuesday Picaroonsday!
Muffin @50
It appears that “venomous” is slightly older than posionous although the time differnce is so small that they seem to be as good as contemporaneous. It’s hard to decide from this exactly when the usage for either word regarding snakes began. The comment regarding “poisonous snakes” at the end of the “venomous” defintion might be relevant. (especially the “certain species” part?)
Here is the relevant part of the venomous entry (the whole entry is quite large!)
3.
a. Of animals, esp. snakes, or their parts: Secreting venom; having the power or property of communicating venom by means of bites or stings; inflicting or capable of inflicting poisonous wounds in this way.
Formerly in general literary use, now chiefly restricted to certain species of poisonous snakes.
?.
?a1387 J. Trevisa tr. R. Higden Polychron. (St. John’s Cambr.) (1865) I. 51 Yuel doers, corrupte ayre, wylde bestes and venemous woneþ þerynne.
c1400 Mandeville’s Trav. (1839) 199 Thanne have thei no drede of no Cocodrilles, ne of non other venymous Vermyn.
c1450 J. Metham Wks. (1916) 46 For off summe off thise serpentys, the eyn so venymmus be That with her loke thei slee yche erthly creature.
c1480 (?a1400) St. Eugenia 396 in W. M. Metcalfe Legends Saints Sc. Dial. (1896) II. 135 Na serpent has a hed sa fel, sa venamuse, na sa cruel, as þe hed of þe colubre is.
1481 Myrrour of Worlde (Caxton) ii. xiv. 97 Irland is a grett Ilonde in whiche is no serpent ne venemous beeste.
c1522 T. More Treat. Memorare Nouissima in Wks. (1557) I. 85 Like as the venemous spider bringeth forth her cobweb.
1596 Spenser Second Pt. Faerie Queene vi. vi. sig. Dd6 That beastes teeth, which..Are so exceeding venemous and keene.
a1616 Shakespeare As you like It (1623) ii. i. 13 Aduersitie Which like the toad, ougly and venemous, Weares yet a precious Iewell in his head.
1653 W. Ramesey Astrologia Restaurata 229 Those places subject thereunto shall be afflicted with water, and venemous Creatures.
1748 B. Robins & R. Walter Voy. round World by Anson iii. ii. 314 We found..scorpions, which we supposed were venemous.
1798 Spirit of Public Jrnls., 1797 1 225 To sleep in a dungeon with venemous reptiles.
?.
??a1505 R. Henryson Orpheus & Eurydice 105 in Poems (1981) 135 As scho ran all bairfut in ane bus, Scho trampit on a serpent wennomus.
1595 W. S. Lamentable Trag. Locrine i. i. 76 Triple Cerberus with his venomous throte.
1651 R. Wittie tr. J. Primrose Pop. Errours iv. xxxviii. 271 If poyson, or some venomous creature be neare unto it, it sweats.
1671 W. Salmon Synopsis Medicinæ iii. xxii. 442 It..cures the bitings of venomous beasts.
1713 W. Derham Physico-theol. ii. vi. 56 Many..of our European venemous Animals carry their Cure..in their own Bodies.
1774 O. Goldsmith Hist. Earth VII. 194 If it [sc. the serpent] has the fang teeth, it is to be placed among the venomous, class.
1834 H. McMurtrie tr. G. de Cuvier Animal Kingdom (abridged ed.) 182 Serpents are divided into venomous and non-venomous; and the former are sub-divided into such as are venomous with several maxillary teeth, and those which are venomous with insulated fangs.
1876 M. E. Braddon Joshua Haggard’s Daughter III. 23 The serpent had lifted his venomous crest from among the flowers.
c1880 Cassell’s Nat. Hist. IV. 301 The poisonous Snakes are divided into two groups—the Viperiform Snakes and the Venomous Colubrines.
and here is the “poisonous” entry
1. Containing, or of the nature of, poison; having the properties of a poison; venomous.
1425 When Crist was Risen (Ashm. 42) f. 126v Nedders vnstangid sall þai bere; Poysonouse drink sall þaim no?t dere.
1563 W. Fulke Goodle Gallerye Causes Meteors sig. D5v Lightning that striketh a poysenous beaste purgeth it from the poyson.
1563 W. Fulke Goodle Gallerye Causes Meteors sig. H2v There be ryuers, whose waters are poyson, this maye be naturally, the water running through poysonous minerals, taking much fume of them.
1665 R. Howard & Dryden Indian-queen iii, in R. Howard Four New Plays 156 Yet we destroy the poisonous Vipers young.
1697 Dryden tr. Virgil Georgics ii, in tr. Virgil Wks. 77 Nor pois’nous Aconite is here produc’d.
1726 G. Leoni tr. L. B. Alberti Archit. I. 15/2 A Steam..so poysonous, that..it..infected all Asia.
1789 W. Paterson Narr. Four Journeys Country of Hottentots 163 The Kouse Band, or Garter Snake, is another of the poisonous reptiles of that country.
1866 J. Lindley & T. Moore Treasury Bot. I. 109 The Deadly Nightshade… All parts of the plant are poisonous.
1866 J. Lindley & T. Moore Treasury Bot. I. 109 When taken in large or poisonous doses.
1918 E. S. Farrow Dict. Mil. Terms 257 Gas shells, ordinary shells from which the greater part of explosive has been taken and replaced by a poisonous liquid, which, when the shell bursts, turns into a poisonous vapor or gas.
1988 M. Gee Grace ii. 7 Other countries send us their poisonous waste.
BNTO
Many thanks for your efforts on that. I suspect that the “distinction” between “poisonous” and “venomous” was 19th century. I’ll have a trawl through Google to see if I can find a reference.
No, I’ll give up. I’ve got through about 10 pages, and all I can confirm is that “poisonous” was still being used for “venomous” in the 1820s.
Muffin, the extracts from the OED I quote include the September 2017 update.
The definition for venomous includes the sentence “Formerly in general literary use, now chiefly restricted to certain species of poisonous snakes.”. So it would appear that the OED were using poisonous for venomous last month!
BNTO @56
That makes it look like the OED are rather confused about it themselves!