Guardian Prize 27,399 by Tramp

67 comments on “Guardian Prize 27,399 by Tramp”

1. Thanks PeeDee.  You’re right, I think.  Anyway, the surfaces here were good and droll, with the exception of 21A which slowed the run home: with that one cracked, FLOOSIES fell into place leading to CYBERSEX at last.  Thanks Tramp.

2. Technically a DNF as my spelling of 17d FLOOSIES was with a Z – FLOOZIES, which I can now see I biffed in without parsing properly. We also use “foodie” here rather than FOODY, 6d, for a gourmand. For me, 21a SLOTH BEAR was unfamiliar, as molonglo@1 has similarly indicated. [molonglo – do you live near the River? – in ACT or NSW?]

   As I had only been doing a puzzle my brother set the night before the Prize puzzle appeared (guessing characters in films and shows from their fictionally “real” names) with Shaggy, Norville Rogers, featuring, the theme here was quite a coincidence!

   This was a bit of fun on a hot Saturday here in Oz, so thanks to Tramp and PeeDee. Favourites were 5a EFF OFF, 25a CLUB FOOT and 27a CYBERSEX.

3. A very nice puzzle. I see that the blog for this prize crossword appears in its position as No 27,399 between Nos 27,398 and 27,400 rather than at the top of the page, ie after the closing date for entries. Strange! And re 21ac: sloth bears are found in South America, not India.

4. PeeDee, I’m puzzled that this blog appears to have been published a week ago (and yet has attracted only two comments so far) given that it was a Prize puzzle.  Is there some error in the date?

   I don’t share your view that Tramp is getting any easier and Timon and I failed to finish this in the hour we set aside for it.  SLOTH BEAR and FLOOSIES were the last ones to yield.  I wasn’t happy with FLOOSIES but I suppose it works as a semi & lit, with “debauched” and “females” hinting at who “they” may be.  I agree with you about FALSE BOTTOMS, where the definition seems to be inadequate.

5. Logomachist @3: we crossed!  But on 21ac, Chambers (rightly or wrongly) defines a sloth bear as a “black Indian bear”.

6. Publication date now corrected so that the post appears at the top of the Home page (for the time being).

7. It has been a while since I did the Grauniad crossword, so this took me a while. Quite enjoyable with all the Scooby-Doo references in the clues. Thanks for clearing up the parsing of 1a which I couldn’t see.

   I wasn’t familiar with the definition of ALIBI as an excuse, I only knew it as evidence of presence away from a crime.

   (pleased it wasn’t just me had trouble finding this blog. They used to be posted on the Saturday after publication, didn’t they?)

8. We finished it, so perhaps Tramp is “getting easier”, but I certainly wouldn’t complain that it was too easy!  A few sloppy definitions (as cited above) didn’t help, and take away from the satisfaction of getting an answer (is this right?).

   But on the credit side, it’s good to have a themed crossword where knowledge of the theme isn’t a prerequisite, as we knew hardly anything about Scooby-Doo, aside from him being a Great Dane – the one piece of general (?) knowledge needed.

9. I must have had a deprived youth as I’m barely familiar with Scooby-doo, but that said at least I knew he was a GREAT DANE. “Essential Daphne” seems a bit vague for drop the “ph”.

   My favourites were 14a and 27a. The bass clarinet anagram made me smile. It’s usually the viola that is the butt of jokes in an orchestra.

   Anyway, enjoyable puzzle. Thanks Tramp and PeeDee.

10. Mr Beaver @8, we crossed, but we seem to agree on Scooby-doo.:-)

11. Thanks both.
    For me, VIDEO and film are different media, but I fear that argument was lost many years ago.

12. A good prize from Tramp – really enjoyable!  I had SIX-BY-FOUR instead of TWO-BY-FOUR for quite a while – utterly plausible from the wordplay but I was wondering whether timber really does come in those dimensions (even went so far as to scan through a couple of timber merchants’ websites!).  Anyway, after scratching my head for a 12-letter word beginning with “EX-” to fit in at 11d, I finally hit upon the correct timber size!

    I have only a very vague recollection of Scooby-Doo – he was probably after my time? (I’m of the Huckleberry Hound, Deputy Dawg, Top Cat and Yogi Bear generation).  But the fact that he was a Great Dane seemed plausible, even before I looked him up!  Did Tramp have an inkling that there would be a Hamlet-themer later in the week?

    Anyway, many thanks to Tramp and PD.

13. ….as “excuse” for ALIBI, Shirl!

14. Thanks Tramp and PeeDee.

    As an erstwhile bass clarinettist I have mixed views about the anagram. 🙂

15. Thanks for the blog and the comments. My puzzles might be getting easier but this was written in October 2013.

    Neil

16. Thanks PeeDee. Not being familiar with Scooby Doo I needed to check with Google which educated me but was only really of assistance with 3d. I’m not sure that ‘federate’ is the same thing as ‘ally’ and wonder about the significance of ‘dropped’ in 8d, unless it indicates ‘rate’ is below ‘fede’.

    My LOI was 13a which I had made hard for myself by confidently entering ‘one on one’ in 7d. It is four by two where I come from, or it was before metrics and 100 x 50.

17. Well I don’t think Tramp is getting easier, but I did find it a strange mix of the easy (I thought) such as 10a or 3d, and the downright impossible (I didn’t get at all) 21a and 17d. Easy enough when you see the answer but then they always are. But thanks Tramp, I enjoyed it.

18. This was fun but I still don’t understand 17d, which seems to have lost its definition

19. Thanks blogger and setter.

    I don’t share the doubts about 17d – it seems to me it’s a straightforward (if arguably sexist) &lit, using ‘vacant’ in the sense of ’empty-headed’. The spelling of the solution is a less common variant which is hardly unusual in crosswords.

20. I enjoyed this and despite never being a big Scooby fan it was fun uncovering the connections to the light hearted theme. I thought 7d was a great clue, but felt the shine was taken off it when the same device was used again 13a – at least that’s the order I solved them in. They also coincidentally followed Vlad using “5d” in the same way the day before.
    I love it when setters use the subtlety of langauage (pronunciation) to mislead – as in 8d with “ally”. It even led me to looking up the “alphabet” of symbols for writing down pronunciation. Thanks to Tramp for the puzzle and sending me off on interesting diversions, and to PeeDee for the blog, and the full parsing of 1a.

21. Has the Maskarade double puzzle from 23 Dec been blogged yet? I am sure there was a mistake in the numbering of 1d, so am curious to know how others fared…

22. Mark @21

    It’s here

    Sorry, I forgot to thank Tramp and PeeDee earlier.

23. Thanks muffin

24. I liked the double entendre in the semi-&lit 17dn.  I read it as the empty-headed ladies taking the debauched gentlemen inside the building.

25. Thanks to Tramp and PeeDee. Liked this a lot and there was lots of fun along the way. Who would have thought that the many hours I suffered through Scooby Doo with my daughter would eventually stand me in good stead. Liked cybersex and floosies best, the latter being the last one in. It took me right back to the 60’s when it was a term my mother used a lot and as I think about it, largely concerning my girlfriends.

26. Re 17d – definitely an &lit definition, and a bit on the un-PC side, I reckon.  Certainly a word best avoided in general conversation!  (Anyway, I thought it was always spelt with a ‘Z’ – but I looked it up).  I think “we few, we happy few, we band of solvers”* have got used to slightly ‘improper’ words cropping up in the cryptic now and again!

    *Well, we’ve had Hamlet and Henry IV in the past week, so it’s a dead cert Henry V will be along anytime soon!

27. Thanks to Tramp and PeeDee. As far as I can see, with the possible exception of 18, all the theme references are in down clues. Is that deliberate, or just for expediency of compiling?
    The sentiments of 19dn will be applauded by most Scooby Doo fans I think.

28. Logomachist @3 – according to Wikipedia the Sloth Bear Melursus ursinus is definitely an Indian sub-continent species. I believe that the character ‘Baloo’ in The Jungle Book (and the Disney animation – he of the “bear necessities”) is based on this species.

29. All I knew about Scooby doo is that he was a cartoon dog so I guessed GREAT DANE. I enjoyed this for the most part. I did spell FLOOSIES with a Z,so, as Julie says, it wouldn’t parse. I did like BASS CLARINET and FALSE BOTTOMS- they appealed to my juvenile side.
    Thanks Tramp.

30. Like @jaydee above I flunked on 21a and 17d; definition for the former did for me(assumed being = person or possibly deity). In the latter I guess the definition is ‘could be loose females’ and this is semi&lit which is possibly the hardest to solve. No complaints as I enjoyed it all, esp the Scooby Doo refs. Thanks Tramp and PeeDee

31. Thanks to Tramp and PeeDee. I struggled with this puzzle. COOEED was new to me (and my spell-checker) as was EN for enrolled nurse, but I failed completely with SLOTH BEAR, SMOOTH-SPOKEN, and FLOOSIES (in either spelling).

32. This took me quite a while, mostly due to the clever wordplay, but I finished in the end.

    I only got SLOTH BEAR with a word search though, and although it does work cryptically, what on earth does the surface mean?

    OFFSTAGE was LOI, coming once I had SLOTH BEAR, despite it not coming up in a Chambers word search (unless I just missed it).

    Btw, Peedee, I didn’t read it as “inside the building”, but more in line with the lady of the night’s ambiguous invitation: “Would you like to come inside?”

    FLOOSIES is definitely a semi &lit imo, “They could be [WP]”. I had also thought it was spelt with a Z (that’s American), but learnt the S spelling when it came up as a possible definition in a recent Guardian clue-writing contest (for CHIPPIE).

    I was a bit unsure about the def for FALSE BOTTOMS, but I think it works: false bottoms have a disguise (as “true bottoms”), beneath which things are hidden.

    I was a bit worried about the Scooby-Doo theme at first and, like others, was relieved that all I knew about it was all I needed to know (GREAT DANE). Did vaguely recognise Mystery Machine too, actually.

    ALIBI is widely used by non-lawyers for such as “the dog ate my homework”.

33. Tony: the surface reading of that clue is trying to refer to an Indian restaurant and its hot food. According to Chambers, “Indian” can refer to a meal or restaurant.

34. Very enjoyable puzzle. Thought FLOOSIES especially was excellent.

35. Tramp@33 (ref. Tony@32) – yes that’s exactly what I thought.  I have to say I didn’t get the surface reading at first, I needed to think for a while.  But then I realised: in popular English idiom, if someone says “I’m just going to the Indian for a take-away” they mean the restaurant, not a person.  So it works.

36. I had never heard of Scooby-Doo, assumed it was British but now I see it’s American.  The only cartoon Great Dane I know is Marmaduke the Big Red Dog, a newspaper rather than animated cartoon.

    I don’t think “Indian” means food or a restaurant over here, but maybe it does — “let’s go out for Indian”?  Sounds familiar for Chinese, not for Indian to my ear.

    Laccaria@28  I had always assumed that the animals in the Jungle Books were in Kipling’s hypothetical “wolfish,” as the Tarzan ones are in the supposed Language of the Great Apes. But in fact they’re in Hindi, a human language, as Baloo exemplifies.  (There is also no such species as a Great Ape, as I realized to my disappointment as an adult.)

37. A pleasant enough solve which I think has received undue criticism above.

    Tramp has kindly replied to one post without trying to answer other criticisms so I’ll do it for him.

    The defintiion for 18A is absolutely fine if one takes “hide” as a noun.

    Most of the other complaints appear to be based on misunderstandings!

     

38. Tramp,

    thanks for the explanation. Sorry if I sounded like I was having a go at you.

    It does seem perfectly natural to me to hear “We’re going down the Indian/Chinese [restaurant] for a meal later”, or “We’re going for an Indian/Chinese [meal] later” but the clue just didn’t bring the former to mind for some reason. Somehow, not being able to make sense of the surface threw me and in fact I only parsed it properly when reviewing just before reading this blog, even though I correctly picked the answer that fit the definition off a word list built from crossers.

    I’m not too sure lurkio’s theory about “hide as noun” in 18a is right. I think I prefer the explanation I gave. Care to comment, if you’re still reading?

    EFF OFF made me laugh and CYBERSEX was excellent in every respect. Thanks for the fun.

39. Julie #2 – answer to your off-topic question is ACT

40. Quite an interesting puzzle, Tramp. I apologize for giving away COOEED in my previous post. I had never heard of the word COOEE before(to say nothing of its past tense). Once I looked back over the wording of the clue I realized it was OE inside COED. You don’t see too many words like that with _O_E_D revealed, or for that matter words where OE would be where it was. I had to go through my entire Merriam-Webster dictionary, and I still couldn’t find it! Finally I looked it up on my Kindle and there it was. You do learn new words occasionally, doing these puzzles. I was also quite surprised to see so many Scooby-Doo references! Sometimes you never know what parts of American pop culture also catch on across the pond. Never really a big Hanna-Barbera fan myself though. After they left MGM, their animation was never as good as it could have been IMHO. I really just liked Tom and Jerry, that was it. Didn’t even realize FLOOZIES could be spelled with an S. That one gave me trouble too. Loved the use of words like CYBERSEX and phrases like EFF OFF, but I have to admit the word “rear” in the FOODY clue confused me a little. I had the F and the Y showing, so my first thought was FANNY, even though I couldn’t exactly parse it out. And then I couldn’t get COOEED, obviously. All in all a very challenging, but not impossible, puzzle. Thanks Tramp! I never even would have guessed it was created in Oct. 2013! Keep up the good work(even if you do have to go back into your own archives to do it sometimes)!

41. During the process of failing to complete this puzzle, I found this unfortunate bit of history:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_bear_of_Mysore

    Thanks Tramp and PeeDee!

42. For FALSE BOTTOMS, the surface reading was intended to portray some criminal in Scooby-Doo that hides beneath a disguise. The definition, “hide beneath their disguise”, on reflection, probably needs a question mark at the end. The idea is that you can hide things behind false bottoms (which are a disguise to look like a real bottom). I think. It’s not the best clue ever written.

43. Thanks, Tramp. That’s pretty much how I understood it. They can’t all be peaches, can they? I recently read the comments to the
    blog of an old puzzle of yours, where you set out some of the editorial constraints imposed on Guardian setters. The one that really surprised me was “Don’t include Wagner”!

44. PS Have you had to wait since 2013 for the editor to find EFF OFF acceptable “in the drawing room”?

45. Tony, good for you that ‘EFF OFF made you laugh’, just like there were probably a lot of other solvers who had their LOL moment.

    While I do not find it ‘unacceptable’ [in that respect I think the comment @44 is rather silly], I do not consider it funny or whatever either. It’s probably more a matter of (in my case, bad) taste. And Tramp had plenty of other options if he’d changed 6d (and/or 10ac). But to each his own.

    Meanwhile (or despite the above), we liked this crossword a lot. An important quality of Tramp is that he can ingeniously incorporate themes to maximum effect without losing sight of cryptic precision, keeping as far away as possible from iffiness.

    Very enjoyable puzzle for which many thanks to Tramp (and, of course, credits to PeeDee for a comprehensive blog).

     

46. I read 24 Across as two different Boxers (Twice),  Ali and Bis albeit a bit obscure.

47. I agree with all the comments about loose definitions and I’d like to add 24ac to the mix

48. Frankie the Cat

    R_C_A_D has already mentioned that, but as I pointed out earlier, it’s only in law where alibi is used strictly to mean a defence of having been elsewhere. It’s widely used in a much looser sense, noted in Chambers (7th Ed., 1988) as “excuse for failure” — exactly the formulation used in the clue.

49. I found this one pretty difficult – in fact I don’t think I finished it. Maybe just an off day, but I was surprised to see PeeDee’s introduction about Tramp getting easier!

    What I did was quite entertaining, so no complaints.

    Thanks to Tramp and PeeDee

50. Tony@48 and others – re loose definitions.  I suppose I must regard myself as more of a ‘libertarian’ than a ‘ximenean’ – hence I’m more willing to go along with a definition like “excuse for failure”, than some people would.  At the least, it carries the word ‘excuse’ which implies some sort of plea for exoneration, therefore pointing us in the direction of ALIBI.  But I agree that it’s not an exact synonym by some standards.

    I’m also conscious that the Guardian has long had a tradition of accepting ‘libertarian’ crosswords – think Boatman, for instance!  This is part of the fun of solving, for me: long may it continue, even in the transmogrified Grauniad! (haven’t gone out to get my copy yet today – p***ing down with rain out there! 🙁 )

51. Re loose definitions: I think ultimately the only thing that matters is whether you liked the definition or not.  Whether it feels like a fair definition for you depends on your own personal life history. For example someone who has studied law will have a different idea of what is a normal use of the word alibi to someone who only uses the word in general conversation.

    The definition “excuse for failure” is quoted verbatim from the dictionary but if this feels wrong to you then it feels wrong.  Just being in the dictionary doesn’t make something a good definition for everybody.

    This will always be the case where there is a word that has a technical definition in some sphere: law, science, medicine or whatever.  There is no definition that works equally well for specialists and lay persons alike.

52. I don’t see how a definition could be more Ximenean than three words quoted verbatim from Chambers, unless it was one word.

    Dictionaries record what words mean in actual use, not what some people think they should mean.

53. “Ximenes’ successor Azed (Jonathan Crowther) summarised the ideas [of Ximenes] with the injunction that a good cryptic clue should contain three elements: 1. a precise definition, 2. a fair subsidiary indication, 3. nothing else.”

    http://www.noted.co.nz/distractions/crossword/crossword-977-answers-and-explanations/

    That’s precisely what 24a does, isn’t it?

54. … though some might quibble that Crowther should have said accurate, not precise.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

55. Tony @ several

    Yes, dictionaries record usage, but they should indicate when the usage is incorrect. Did you see my example of “whale” = “fish”?

56. muffin – if you want somewhere that lists “correct” usages of words then you will have to look somewhere other than a dictionary.  I remember an interview with the editor of Macmillan Dictionaries (Collins among others) where he said quite explicitly that if the dictionary fails to reflect the language as it is used then it is the dictionary that is incorrect, not the language.

    There have been many attempts to produce dictionaries of correct English over the past few centuries and they have all foundered.  Mainly because the language is continually evolving: at what point do you decide that the “correct” usage has been found?  Presumably it would have to be your own generation as you wouldn’t want to abandon perfectly good words just because they used to mean something else before you were born and you don’t like words taking on new meanings for subsequent generations either.  Presumably you would also want “correct” to be defined in in terms of polite middle class usage too: you wouldn’t want common people’s language to be considered “correct” English.

    The whole idea is doomed to failure.

57. I’m literally 110% with Peedee on this.

58. Just to clarify my point @56 – I am in no way suggesting that one should take an “anything goes” attitude to definitions in puzzles.  Only that dictionaries are not the only place to look to decide if something is worthy of use in a puzzle.

    Fundamentally, the definition of what any individual considers to be “correct” in a puzzle lies within his or her own head.  There is no official reference for the English language nor is there an official rulebook for what is permissible in a crossword.

    You either like the definition the setter gave or you don’t.  If you don’t like it then IMO that is fair comment.  Don’t let someone brandishing a dictionary put you off.  It would be like deciding to like some strident discordant noise you heard on the radio just because someone pointed out that the piece was listed in the Oxford Dictionary of Music.

59. I’ve said before that it’s not language evolving that distresses me, it’s words that originally had different (and precise) meanings coming to mean the same, Take alibi/excuse for example; aggravate/irritate (or centre/epicentre!). The language is degraded! Dictionaries should indicate this!!

60. I think you will have to write that dictionary yourself muffin!  The big names in dictionary writing abandoned the attempt long ago.

61. I’m tempted to do so, PeeDee!

62. I’m might to do so, PeeDee!

63. (Duplicate comment (sort of) as my first seemed to be rejected)

64. Surely online dictionaries get around the problem of obsolescence which plagues the printed form.  I believe that Merriam-Webster online is pretty comprehensive – only problem is (for UK users) that it’s basically defined around American English.

    I only recently learned that, on the other hand, Chambers online is not comprehensive.  So a few weeks ago I splashed out on a new copy of Chambers (to replace a tatty old one 50 years out-of-date) and was surprised and pleased to discover how many oddities that crop up in the Grauniad cryptics, are all-present-and-correct in Chambers (Mrs L is also finding it useful for her novel-writing).

    Regarding OED, I’m not sure.  I believe the OED online is pretty complete and up, if you can get into it!  (I’ve had problems: either I pay up or I use Mrs L’s library card, and that doesn’t always work).  I have a paper copy of the Shorter OED, but that’s nearly 60 years old so very dated.

65. Surely the point is, that if a setter is challenged on his definition, he should be able to point to some objective authority for support. That is probably most often a reputable dictionary. A setter can’t just say “that’s what it means in my head”, even if a solver can. I often find familiar words in crosswords have meanings I wasn’t aware of. That can include cases like alibi where what might originally be solecisms come to be used in different ways in common parlance — at which point they become candidates for entry in dictionaries. And crossword puzzles. Sometimes the latter may precede the former if the setter has a keen ear. That’s what I think, anyway. Forsooth.

66. Tony – you have established beyond doubt that the clue follows the rules, the setter can’t be challenged and that his definition is correct.

    Because a word is in the dictionary or used correctly in a crossword does not mean that people have to like it.  It is like the arts in general: you can watch a play that is grammatically correct but that doesn’t mean you liked it.  Some people didn’t find some of these definitions satisfying.  Presumably when they wanted to know if they had enjoyed a clue they examined their emotions, not a textbook.

67. PeeDee is absolutely right. Definitions should be generally accepted if uncommon, not reliant on dictionary references that are dead. And as for ‘libertarian’ crosswords: that seems to me an excuse for sloppy construction.

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