Guardian 27,416 / Boatman

92 comments on “Guardian 27,416 / Boatman”

1. Thanks Boatman and Eileen

   Typical Boatman puzzle – more fun to set than solve! I was baffled by TROUT too, and also NIT for “turkey”, and I had to Google for DONUT = sinker. I couldn’t agree more about the TED in OPTED OUT; I don’t like this anyway, and it’s wrong by it’s own lights.

   On the other hand, I did like GARNERS, PISCINE and BAIT.

2. Thanks Eileen. Likewise stumped by the parsing of 20a. Aa usual with Boatman. ingenious, but not my cup of tea.

3. BAIT is also an anagram (fishy) of “a bit”, Eileen.

4. Aagh! “by its own lights”

5. Oh, Eileen, a small glitch on your parsing of 1d. It’s ‘by’ replaced by ‘M’ for Motorway not ‘M1’.

6. 20a: you need to take TR out of TROUT to make OUT

7. beaulieu @6

   …but why TR?

8. Many thanks, George @5.  I’ve no idea how that crept in – corrected now.

9. Muffin – the exact same clue would work with any fish whose name ended in OUT (perhaps POUT or SMOUT). You need the T from 20d to be sure which one it is.

   By the way, 21d sems actually to be an anagram (fishy) of ‘a bit’.

10. I did wonder if the definition in 2d wasn’t “took back control of nothing”, with the nothing also being part of the wordplay…

11. Sorry muffin, missed your comment @3

12. I’ve often wondered – where are the post numbers (@7 for example) displayed? I don’t see any in Firefox for android!

13. beaulieu @11

    No problem – I think Eileen did too!

    Martin @12

    I’m using Chrome on a laptop. The numbers appear alongside the response boxes.

14. Nice to see you using “(non-)rhotic”, a word I coined, Eileen!

15. First of all i did like RAW DEAL and found the main thing good fun.

    Thanks for parsing of GARNERS-please hexplain what the fish is doing there.

    Dont like CHOICE-the parsing leads to CHOICY or CHOICED!

     

    As for TROUT!!!

     

    Thanks Eileen and boatman.

16. copmus @15

    “Fish” meaning “fish out” (as a verb, obviously)

17. Thank you, Eileen and Boatman.

    Not always a pleasant solve with this chap but I enjoyed this fishy offering.

    Blundered in with OCEANIST instead of CANOEIST but sorted it out soon enough.

    Still don’t see what he was up to with TROUT, perhaps he’ll pop in to explain.

    Ticks at NEWCOMER, RAW DEAL & DUMPLING.

    Nice weekend, all

18. copmus @15:  ‘fish’ is working as a verb here.  To fish something out for example.

    Also CHOICE works in a down clue:  CHO {on} ICE

19. I struggled in places, but really enjoyed it – fish all seem to have lovely snappy names.

    DUMPLING STOCKADE ECCENTRIC BAIT RAWDEAL PISCINE KILL favourites.

    Agree with Eileen about definition for OPTED OUT (failed to solve that and ACCENT)

    Also agree with beaulieu and muffin on TROUT.  I took it as tr out of trout makes out, but if so, it’s utterly non-specific.  ‘What you need to make out without being precise’  THEREABOUT

    Thanks Boatman, Eileen

20. When I saw how it worked, I thought 20a was very good, but I also didn’t like 2d much.

    Thanks to s & b.

21. Thanks for the blog.

    Is 20a intended as a salacious reference  (not part of my lexicon, but apparently urban slang)?

    I thought some of the surfaces were inelegant/clunky/meaningless – 2d in particular. There have to be any number of better ways to clue “opted-out” – Declined pot due to misread?

22. Eileen, the only explanation for 20a that occurred to me was that you need to have surgically enhanced lips (trout pout) in order to kiss (make out with) a trout! Otherwise it’s incomprehensible to me.

23. William @18 has explained what I thought I’d said in the blog.

    John Wells @14 – ‘rhotic’ and I go back nine years or more on this site. 😉

    I still don’t understand  20ac. I have to go out for a while now – I hope light will have dawned by the time I get back.

24. Martin @12

    Comment numbering is only visible when in desktop view, the mobile view unfortunately does not include it. When using a mobile, if you wish to see the comment numbering, you can scroll down to the bottom of the page and switch from mobile to desktop view. You can then switch back to mobile view, if desired (again by scrolling down to the bottom of the page).

25. Was anyone else surprised Boatman didn’t clue CAST-A-NET at 4 down? Too obvious maybe?

    Thanks to all.

26. Thanks Boatman and Eileen. A nice fish dish.

    I think beaulieu @6 has explained TROUT. You need a five letter fish where the first two letters are ‘out’ to make, er, ‘out.’ Smout would be unlikely as it is a variant of SMOLT, which is the answer for 14. I can’t think of another five-letter fish which is ??OUT.

    I didn’t much like the ‘ted’ from tedium. I didn’t know sinker for DONUT – the OED now says it’s rare.

    I liked GARNERS.

27. I am not Martin@12! I thought a second site user with the same name would be prompted to choose a different one.

28. Thanks, Eileen – it’s a pleasure to see you tackling one of mine again.

    Robi @26 – Thank you for your concise analysis of the TROUT issue – you’ve saved me from making a much longer discursion to the same effect! The clue is, of course, tongue-in-cheek to say the least, but I don’t like every clue to be as specific as, say an anagram – though even with an anagram there can be multiple solutions, so it’s always necessary to look at the definition (which would have ruled out SPOUT, for example) and the letter count. Still, Beaulieu @9 is correct that SMOUT is a valid (if unlikely) alternative solution, and I hadn’t spotted it. Chapeau!

    Angstony @25 – Bravo – that was very well spotted! It certainly wasn’t too obvious as far as I was concerned, but if you look back to Screw’s puzzle from last Friday, you’ll see it there at 5 Ac (with a rather nice use of “fish fingers”, I thought). His version reached Hugh before mine, so I found a different net to fill the same slot. I wasn’t too unhappy with the outcome.

29. Greatly enjoyed this, although like others rather bemused by TROUT and OPTED OUT. Favourites were LIMA, GARNERS, RAW DEAL and CHOICE. Thanks to Boatman for dropping in and facing the music (and for the excellent puzzle), and to Eileen as ever.

30. Quite hard work, but there have been days when Boatman has defeated me, so mustn’t complain. Fish are useful to setters, aren’t they? A bit like trees, so many short words!

    TROUT got a ? next to it, meaning ‘check the blog, so thanks Robi @26. Didn’t much care for 2d either, but I see I’m not alone.

    However I admire the setting, with the theme in both clues and answers; though for a solving experience I prefer yesterday. Sorry Boatman, you’re brave to drop in! In another context, I know what it’s like to read what people think of your work!

31. Thanks to Boatman and Eileen. Really struggled with this. Usually I am ok with Boatman but today for some reason could not get on the same wavelength so a DNF for me. Failed on a few including 7a and 2d. I also put in gill for 21d (as in gill net), which also meant I could not get 21a and 24a. However many likeable clues and maybe just an off day for me. Thanks again to Boatman and to Eileen for putting me out of my misery.

32. Boatman @28: Thanks for the explanation and bad luck! At least it saved you from silly complaints about a single castanet. Who’s ever heard of such a thing?

33. As usual with Boatman I really disliked this offering. A strained theme, this time, to add to the often terrible cryptic indication, and poor awareness of cryptic grammar. Apart from anything else though, it’s so boring to have fish in almost every clue, or boats or whatever.

    I’d make a poor pescatarian, obviously.

34. Could someone please explain the equivalence of “nit” and “turkey”, please? – I’m simply not seeing it.

35. Thank you for the blog, Eileen.

    I fully agree with Muffin’s comments.

    Wish I’d tried Bradman in today’s FT instead of this.

36. Angstony @32 – Excellent point!

37. muffin @34

    Chambers: nit² – a fool; turkey – a fool

38. Thanks to Boatman and Eileen. Tough going for me. I did get BAIT but did not see NIT as turkey and failed to parse ACCENT and GARNERS.

39. TROUT is an old slang word meaning a lady of easy virtue. You would make out with her

40. To Martin @27

    My apologies! It seems there can only be one Martin. Oh what traps await the lurker who posts infrequently!

     

     

41. Probably at the easier end of Boatman’s range, but not without a few parsing challenges.

    Thanks to Boatman and Eileen

42. EF @39 – Good point! I couldn’t possibly comment …

43. Thanks to Boatman and Eileen.

    I found this more straightforward than some Boatman puzzles that I remember.  I particularly liked 11d ECCENTRIC (and yet I often don’t enjoy double definition clues), 21d BAIT (which I saw as an anagram) and 18a NEWCOMER.

    SMOLT was new to me – no complaints, and of course, it fits the theme.

    I wasn’t fond of the wordplay in TROUT (I thought of making out with ‘mangetout’ immediately after getting that one, just to make a rather ridiculous point) or in OPTED OUT, in which, like Eileen, I thought ‘much tedium’ was not a good indication for TED.

    Thanks to Boatman and Eileen.

44. Boatman @28+  Many thanks for dropping in.  Once I saw that the TROUT clue was tongue-in-cheek, it needs no further explanation.

    Presumably a castanet makes the sound of one hand clapping?

45. Enjoyable puzzle, thanks to both Boatman and Eileen.

    Eileen  — I’m not happy with POUT as an expression of disdain either.  I think it’s more an expression of displeasure.  And thank you for saying that DONUT is “an” and not “the” American spelling — it certainly isn’t mine.  I’ve never heard doughnuts called sinkers, but since they’re deep-fried it makes sense.

    I started with SLING for spear — S + LING (that perennial crossword fish along with IDE), though it didn’t really parse.  Finally I did get to use LING in DUMPLING.

46. Eileen @37

    Thanks. I’ve never heard turkey = fool; flop, perhaps!

47. 20a is a complete swiz.  It’s masquerading as a reverse clue, when the solution is itself a clue for something in the clue.  But ‘tr out’ is not a clue for out.  It’s pretty basic, isn’t it, that wordplay has to give some indication for all the letters in the solution?

48. Thanks to Boatman and Eileen.

    I thought this was great fun and nicely chewy – I had to juggle most clues for a while and so had many penny drop moments (I think these are called PDMs in this forum?). I particularly liked NIT-PICK (2LOI) which led to OPTED-OUT and, like others, I found that to be uncharacteristically weak at best but it’s nice to find I am more or less on Boatman’s wavelength.  I had no trouble with TROUT; also a wavelength thing I suppose.

    Recent culinary reviews indicate that I’m actually not too bad at cooking fish.

49. Hi Valentine @45

    It was the definition of ‘opt out’ that I was querying but I certainly didn’t like the one for ‘POUT’, either. Chambers has it as expressing sulkiness and Collins sullenness. What with that and the TED[ium] – never mind the surface! – I reckon it’s a pretty weak clue all round but, as I said, I didn’t really want to NIT-PICK. I’m with George @2 re Boatman puzzles, as I’ve said before, and we bloggers are sometimes berated for letting our favourites get away with things which would be slated in another setter’s puzzle.

    Oh dear, I see that I did say ‘the American spelling’, which makes your comment sound like the notices saying, ‘Thank you for not smoking’. 😉  My apologies: I didn’t look it up [but I see now that Chambers has ‘esp US’ for that spelling] – I just went along with Boatman [but I did have to google ‘sinker’, which I’ve just looked up in Chambers and found  ‘a doughnut [sic] {US inf.}’ ].

    I’m glad you got your LING!

50. Eileen

    It was only two days ago that I had a very brief discussion with another contributor on incipient senility, and I now find that I wrote my thanks to you and Boatman at both the beginning and the end of my comment above (@43).

    I can’t for the life of me think why I would thank you both only two minutes after having already done so, but I have no regrets – there is no shame in thanking setter and blogger for even a third time.

    [Incidentally, I do sometimes have problems seeing what I have typed already while typing into a web form, and when I can be bothered I type everything first into a notepad (literally Notepad on my Windows laptop) so that I can review what I’ve said more easily – with the added advantage of ensuring my text isn’t lost if the Captcha fails.]

51. Alan B

    And I never even noticed – I don’t know what that says about me. 😉

52. Eileen

    Well it’s not senility – it must be something to do with having too much to read on blogging days.

53. I thought the bookending thanks had a nice sense of symmetry …

54. I’ve never heard of ‘turkey = fool, even if it is in the OED,so NIT PICK was a guess, as was TROUT and GARNERS (my LOI). I quite enjoyed this- well,most of it- but it was frustrating having to resort to guesswork so often. This happens quite often with this setter.
    Thanks Boatman.

55. I couldn’t see NIT-PICK or OPTED OUT.  I agree that the latter is a bit of a stretch re the parsing.  The former could perhaps have been fairer as “Carp and egg with cream (3-4)”.

    I quite liked TROUT in the end.  Also good were GARNERS, BAIT and NEWCOMER.

    Not sure why the ? was there in 24.

    I like unravelling Boatman’s clues generally and this was another enjoyable outing.

    Thanks, Eileen and Boatman.

56. I prefer your 7a, phitonelly

57. phitonelly and muffin

    I agree concerning 7a: I think ‘Carp and egg with cream’ is particularly neat, and, solving this without references to hand, I would have found that clearer too.  But ‘turkey’ is just as valid, and I guessed there was this other meaning of that word, possibly related to its meaning as a flop, which muffin has already pointed out.

58. Has anyone given the right parsing of TROUT?  It’s simple, once you see it: a command “TR out!”  i.e. remove TR from the fish to make OUT.  So it’s a double def. of sorts.  I would say that, parsing aside, it’s a bit too easy a write-in: not many fish will fit T?O?T and “out” in the clue is a give-away.

    For GARNERS – well bad form for me to pull one up on my mentor, but he did warn us in the class about making the anagram solution too like the fodder.  Leaving aside “roof” for the moment, GARDENS and GARNERS are rather similar aren’t they?

    Apart from that, excellent from Boatman as always!  I got stuck for a long time in the NW – had pencilled in TAKEN OUT for no very good reason at 2d – and wasn’t sure whether “turkey” could be applied to a person as well as – say – a play or film.  But Chambers says it can…

    Thanks to Boatman and Eileen.

59. Gosh, I managed to finish this with much less ‘creative research’ than usual.  Thanks to Eileen for 8A.  I solved but couldn’t parse. Thanks, Boatman and Eileen.

60. Eileen — I wasn’t clear.  What I meant was that as well as agreeing with your nitpicking, in addition I didn’t like the implied definition of “pout.”  That wasn’t the point you were making, it was the one I was adding.

61. I missed OPTED OUT and INSOLE – the latter I should have seen. So Many thanks Eileen for that – and for the parsing of eccentric, where I was hung up on just odd being a definition. I had no problems with ‘what you need to make out with this fish = ‘ take TR out’, just thought it was unfortunate to have out repeated in the clue.

    Many thanks Boatman, though I think I’ll avoid fish for dinner tonight.

    Just arrived in London for Big Dave’s birthday bash – will meet up with several friends tonight and enjoy an excellent day tomorrow.

62. There certainly is such a things as a castanet – every primary school in the country will be filled with the things. It’s a stick with two clappers bound to it that makes the same noise as castanets when you wave it about.

63. Thanks to Boatman and Eileen

    Late today for various reasons, but I enjoyed the puzzle, and found it on Boatman’s easier side.

    Angstony @ 32 (and referencing the discussion on Tramp’s puzzle last week: you play the castanets. To be able to play the castanets you need to link one castanet with another. It seems fairly obvious (to me, at least) and is supported by both current eChambers and my >40yo SOED, so I don’t think there’s much cause for complaint.

64. Me @ 63

    Insert missing parenthesis after ‘week’.

    VW @ 62: we crossed, but were playing the same tune, more or less. Probably percussively.

65. Valentine @ 45:  Thank you for saying it!  DONUT is a spelling commonly seen on many shops in the US but which irritates this American to no end.

    Muffin @ 46:  Calling someone a turkey or a “jive turkey” was common American slang in the ’70s. Now it sounds very dated indeed.  I don’t know if they rerun old Norman Lear programs in the UK but any episode of The Jeffersons, Maude or Good Times will probably be replete with turkeys.

66. Thanks for that, BlueDot – I’ve never heard of any of those programmes either!

67. Very late to the party.  It has been a busy day at work.

    I see that many commenters above rated this fishy-themed puzzle a “meh”, but — Holy Mackerel! — I really enjoyed it!!  I got a laugh at TROUT, I thought NEWCOMER was wittily clued, and I also enjoyed INSOLE and STOCKADE.  CotD for me was RAW DEAL.  I didn’t love OPTED OUT, but I didn’t mind it either.

    I’m afraid I went for CHOICY in 19d, based on “chilled”.  Thanks to William @18 for explaining the “on ice” vertical clue device — which led me to look at Eileen’s blog again and see that she also (first) explained it perfectly, but I somehow missed it when I read through her blog initially.

    Count me among the Americans unfamiliar with the term “sinker” for a doughnut (or donut).  [As for the two spellings of that D-word, I always assumed it was a retail merchandising/advertising thing, sort of like bottled catsup labelled as ketchup, or so-called words like “lite” and “nite”.]  Perhaps others who Googled “sinker” saw, as I did in one site that came up, the explanation that “sinker” is a term applied to ring doughnuts, with the hole in the middle (I believe the geometric term is a torus), distinguishing them from the hole-less, disc-shaped doughnuts that are filled with jelly or other fillings.

    Many thanks to Boatman, Eileen and the other commenters.  Happy weekend, all!

68. Me @67

    BTW, I forgot to mention in my prior post that I thought Boatman missed an opportunity to have another “fishy” clue in 2d, since POUT (as noted by beaulieu @9) is also a type of fish. (I don’t know how widespread they are, though — perhaps known just in North America?)

69. Boatman behaving himself today, keeping clearly far away from the borders of Crosswordland this time?

    A crossword with a trademark Boatman signature: various fishy ingredients used in various ways (fodder, indicator, definition) and the appearance of the man himself in 18ac.  Muffin @1: more fun to set than solve! It takes quite an effort to fill such a grid and write clues like this. So, yes, fun for the setter (and I am sure Boatman agrees). As to the entertainment factor for us solvers, it looks like you’re not alone in being disappointed, given the many rather negative comments.

    Now, I won’t say our last one in (OPTED OUT) was the best of the bunch but the nod to Brexit we found rather amusing.  While 20ac (TROUT) is not perfect, we liked the idea very much. CHOICE (19d) has been criticised because perhaps the clue leads to ‘choicy’. That is also what I thought but my solving partner was absolutely sure that only CHOICE would fit the definition – and you can use ‘ice’ in an adjectival way, can’t you?

    It feels rather funny – as a regular criticaster of Boatman’s output – to be on his side where a lot of others were clearly not.

    We enjoyed this crossword very much (despite some imperfection).

    I think that when his puzzles aren’t so boatmaniacal, the fun factor goes up steadily. Certainly, for us.

    Many thanks to both Eileen & Boatman.

     

70. The device at 20@ is capable of being used with just about any word ending in OUT or OFF, especially if the unnecessary “with” is omitted. I hope that it never is.
    Thanks to Boatman and manehi.

71. Whoops. I meant thanks to Eileen as evrr. It’s late.

72. One thing I forgot to mention earlier was the phrase “odd fish” in 11d was unfamiliar to me, and as a result I was held up for a time in entering ECCENTRIC, because I was struggling to parse the entire clue properly.  The phrase I am much more familiar with is “odd bird”.  But eventually the lightbulb came on, and I realized that “odd fish” must also be a Thing (and why not?  The phrase works just as well with fish as with bird, to describe someone who is (or is “an”) eccentric).

    I have had this Monty Python bit running through the back of my mind this afternoon as I read through the blog and comments above.

73. Thanks both,

    Re 16ac: some fishing weights (sinkers) are toroidal (doughnuts) but I can’t see anybody selling them under that name on the web.

74. Even later than everyone – a real struggle for us today which took most of the day on and off between fights to Dublin but we got there in the end. Thanks B & E – too late to say more.

75. Probably far too late for anyone to see, but a couple of points relating to clues that seem to have caused problems for some:

    3d:  I got there by way of the French accents for the letter E – acute, circumflex and grave (pronounced the French way even in English)

    16a:  For what it’s worth, as a wee lad in England when trying my hand unsuccessfully at coarse fishing, we would first throw into the water a ball shaped lump of dough to attract the odd fish into the general area.  This was also a called a sinker, as well as the lead weights attached to the line.

    Whether or not Boatman also had these in mind when setting these clues I don’t know, but they certainly helped to put me on the right track, fortuitously or not.

76. No thanks to Boatman. At all.

77. Many thanks to Boatman, and for the blog – of which I had seen the first line yesterday, so went for some fishy fun before today’s Prize.
    It was an enjoyable half hour – quite quick for me – and only 3d went in unparsed.
    A

78. WhiteKing @74 – I think you meant “fights in” rather than “fights to”.

79. re19d: CHO is finally chilled, i.e. finally put on ice. Choicy will not fit!

80. Graham @79  – see comments 18, 23 and 56.

81. Very very late to the party here, however big news this is my first completed gaurdian cryptic would have posted sooner but it took me about 4 hours to get opted out…phew

82. Cosmo @81 – Congratulations! Stick with it – hope to hear from you again.

83. Even later to the comments party.

    I eventually had to admit defeat on the final few but had been steadily picking away at it. Nit-pick and Accent were my downfalls.

    Despite reading all the learned explanations I’m still stumped by a few. Trout for sure, and Garners I thought the ‘fish’ was just gratuitous.

    But still, very close to a full solution which is unusual for me on any other day than Monday so on that score I have to say I enjoyed it.

84. Even less likely than the previous late poster to be read — but sill . . .

    My Chambers gives Opt out : (of a school or hospital) to leave local-authority control. That would seem to cover Boatman’s definition.

    Wish I could say I skate-d through the puzzle but in truth it was ruff-going.

    Good wishes, all.

85. InGrid @84 🙂 🙂

    Great moniker btw

86. E Foster @39 – just noticed your mention of a different meaning for TROUT (the argument about TROUT is going to run and run isn’t it ….).  Actually, that’s not the definition that Chambers gives: it says “an unpleasant or interfering old person, especially a woman”.  Not very PC perhaps?

    Anyway, some months ago I was trying to put together a themed puzzle based on Schubert’s songs (in English) and of course one of the lights was going to be TROUT (in the end I abandoned the exercise).  If I recall, I was going to clue it something like “Not the year to test grouchy old lady (5)”  [TRY OUT minus Y(ear)].  Perhaps just as well I didn’t.  Anyone else got a clue for TROUT?

     

87. My last post hasn’t appeared.

    Fish for the easy win in Yorkshire (5)

    T’ rout

88. Brown in the rainbow? Run along with you.(5)
    Maybe a bit easy

89. Fishtails from West River to Bayou Coast.

90. I liked those suggestions for alternative definitions for TROUT from the last three posters, though could not fully parse the one you composed, Cosmo@88. I think there is both a brown trout and a rainbow trout, and that you were referring to them, though not sure of the wordplay there, and I did get the “out” bit, as in the imperative I think. Had to smile at your Yorkshire accent in 87, muffin, and the clever use of “Fishtails” in 89, Simon S. This thread has certainly cast the net wide, hauling in some new and less frequent anglers dipping in their lines alongside those who are well and truly hooked. Like Crossbar@85, I think the moniker you have chosen is very good, InGrid@84. Welcome to the forum – I don’t think I have see you post before?

91. Thanks all for the alternative ‘TROUT’s!

92. Gosh – what a lot of posts! Bidding (as usual) to be the last posters….. (And how do you find out who’s added posts to this site? Can you set up alerts?) liked the theme and started off well, but got stuck with a few, with IN SOLE last in. Liked RAW DEAL, NEWCOMER and STOCKADE – there are quite a few words that you can make with those letters! We’re still struggling with TROUT. And congrats to Cosmo on completing the first puzzle.

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