THe puzzle may be found at https://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/27456.
Quite a tussle, with three references to Genesis, and a couple of less well known characters from Greek mythology. I solved by quarters, NW first, then SE, NE and SW. I would have been happier to have the puzzle to blog with more time for it; at the moment we have gone on Daylight Savings Time, and the UK has not, so that the puzzle arrived an hour later than usual.
| Across | ||
| 1 | DEPUTISE | Stand in place on island in river (8) |
| An envelope (‘in’) of PUT (‘place’) plus IS (‘island’) in DEE (‘river’). | ||
| 5 | ICARUS | Minister losing head meeting American — one on perilous journey (6) |
| A charade of [v]ICAR (‘minister’) minus the first letter (‘losing head’) plus US (‘American’). Daedalus and his son Icarus, by the Greek legend, attempted to escape from Crete by flying with wings attached to their arms by wax; Icarus flew too near the sun, the wax melted, and he plummeted into the sea to drown. | ||
| 9 | BOLSOVER | Place for parliamentary beast — slob’s a clue (8) |
| A wordplay-in-the-answer: BOLS OVER is ‘slob’. Dennis Skinner, the MP for the Bolsover constituency, is known as “The Beast of Bolsover”. | ||
| 10 | BILLOW | Big cloud making one under the weather in part of London (6) |
| An envelope (‘in’) of ILL (‘under the weather’) in BOW (‘part of London’). ‘Making one’ joins definition to wordplay. | ||
| 12 | SPOTTED DICK | Sweet little boy seen taking the lead (7,4) |
| A charade of SPOTTED (‘seen’) plus DICK (‘little boy’), with ‘taking the lead’ indicating the order of the particles. For those who might think otherwise, SPOTTED DICK is a pudding made of a suet dough (probably now made with a vegetable substitute for suet, ground beef fat) and raisins or currants (‘which make the spots), boiled and generally served with custard, in case it does not contain sufficient calories. | ||
| 15 | MOCHA | Drink tea when meeting doctor (5) |
| A charade of MO (Medical Officer, ‘doctor’) plus CHA (‘tea’). ‘When meeting’ indicates the order of the particles. | ||
| 17 | FAIR TRADE | Ethical business — or one getting some taken for a ride? (4,5) |
| Definition and literal interpretation,with FAIR in the sense of an amusement park (‘one’ referring back to ‘business’). | ||
| 18 | NESTORIUS | Heretic Tories naughtily invading student organisation (9) |
| An envelope (‘invading’) of ESTORI, an anagram (‘naughtily’) of ‘Tories’ in NUS (National Union of Students, ‘student organisation’). Anyone getting the answer from the definition deserves my respect. | ||
| 19 | RELIT | Roof worker returning with new enthusiasm? (5) |
| A reversal (‘returning’) of TILER (‘roof worker’). | ||
| 20 | INHERITANCE | What Jacob wrenched from Esau, being the cannier, I fancy (11) |
| An anagram (‘fancy’) of ‘the cannier I’. For a mess of pottage. | ||
| 24 | BANTAM | Small message prohibiting certain headgear (6) |
| BAN TAM (‘message prohibiting certain headgear’ – a kind of charade, but only making sense as a whole phrase) | ||
| 25 | BALLROOM | Cleaner has everyone locked in entertainment hall (8) |
| An envelope (‘has … locked in’) of ALL (‘everyone’) in BROOM (‘cleaner’). | ||
| 26 | LATTER | The second drink ending in disaster (6) |
| A charade of LATTE (coffee ‘drink’) plus R (‘ending in disasteR‘). | ||
| 27 | ETHEREAL | This place, with the others around it, is heavenly (8) |
| An envelope (‘around it’) of HERE (‘this place’) in ET AL (‘with the others’). | ||
| Down | ||
| 1 | DEBASEMENT | Like English chaps in financial difficulty, in shame (10) |
| An envelope (‘in’) of AS (‘like’) plus E (‘English’) plus MEN (‘chaps’) in DEBT (‘financial difficulty’). | ||
| 2 | PILLOWCASE | Slip in the bedroom (10) |
| Cryptic definition. | ||
| 3 | TROUT | Dodgy operator catching river fish (5) |
| An envelope (‘catching’) of R (‘river’) in TOUT (‘dodgy operator’). | ||
| 4 | SPEED OF LIGHT | The fops glide around — can’t go any faster (5,2,5) |
| An anagram (‘around’) of ‘the fops glide’, with an allusive “definition”, following Einstein. | ||
| 6 | CRICKETER | Bat, maybe, showing hesitation to pursue insect (9) |
| A charade of CRICKET (‘insect’) plus ER (‘showing hesitation’). | ||
| 7 | ROLL | Start making bread? (4) |
| Double definition (“ready to roll”). | ||
| 8 | SOWN | Broadcast from name-dropping Channel 4 presenter (4) |
| A reference to Jon SNOW, Channel 4 News presenter, with the N moved to the end (‘name-dropping’ in a down light). | ||
| 11 | CIVIL SERVANT | Evil vicar’s abused scripture — minister may hear from me (5,7) |
| A charade of CIVILSERVA, an anagan (‘abused’) of ‘evil vicars’ plus NT (New Testament, ‘scripture’). | ||
| 13 | FALL IN LOVE | Female, exhausted, see, temptress first off to have emotional experience (4,2,4) |
| A charade of F (‘female’) plus ALL IN (‘exhausted’) plus LO (‘see’) plus [e]VE (‘temptress’) minus the first letter (‘first off’). | ||
| 14 | GEOTHERMAL | Good source of energy alternative — fellow briefly giving its description? (10) |
| A charade of G (‘good’) plus E (‘energy’) plus OTHER (‘alternative’) plus MAL[e] (‘fellow briefly’), with an extended definition. | ||
| 16 | ABOMINATE | Hate in province with rabble rising in the grip of a troublemaker (9) |
| An envelope (‘in the grip of’) of BOMIN, a reversal (‘rising’) of NI (Northern Ireland, ‘province’) plus MOB (‘rabble’) in ‘a’ plus ATE (Greek goddess of mischief, ‘troublemaker’). | ||
| 21 | TILDE | Mark‘s hat worn by daughter (5) |
| An envelope (‘worn by’) of D (‘daughter’) in TILE (‘hat’). | ||
| 22 | ABEL | Report of competent shepherd (4) |
| Sounds like (‘report of’) ABLE (‘competent’). In Genesis, ABEL, the ‘shepherd’ son of Adam and Eve, was slain by his elder brother Cain, a farmer. The third Genesis reference in the crossword. | ||
| 23 | KNOT | Upcoming strike creates difficulty (4) |
| A reversal (‘upcoming’ in a down light) of TONK (‘strike’). | ||
Not exactly enjoyable for me. I failed to solve BOLSOVER (never heard of it), TONK (ditto, never heard this word before), and 24a BANTAM.
New for me were Jon Snow (TV presenter for 8d) and TILDE.
Of the ones I solved, I needed help to parse 16d.
Thanks Peter and Pasquale.
I thought I had solved this though I couldn’t parse balloter at 9a, thinking the “beast” might be some kind of British parliamentary euphemism for a ballot box. But now I know I couldn’t parse it because it was plain wrong. So a DNF from me, as I had not heard of BOLSOLVER either, michelle@1.
Pity, as I liked a lot of the rest of the puzzle, especially clues like 5a ICARUS and 20a INHERITANCE. But again echoing michelle@1, TONK was an unfamiliar word, so 23d KNOT was a guess. Ditto 8d SNOW/SOWN.
I also liked 4d SPEED OF LIGHT, which made me think of physics, which made me feel sad all over again at the news of the death of Stephen Hawking.
Thanks to Pasquale and PeterO. (Are you in the US, PeterO? My son who lives in NYC told me they have gone to daylight saving from last Sunday.)
(12a SPOTTED DICK recalled a sign I once saw on Corfu that advertised SPOTED DIK – an unusual dessert indeed!)
Got BOLSOVER from the wordplay but came here to find out about “beast”
Thanks.
As far as I remember the MP Skinner (forgotten his first name) was the member for Bolsover (near Chesterfield) and was referred to as the beast of Bolsover.
First name Dennis and still there!!
Managed to complete despite some suspect wording in my view. Bantam = small? Fair trade a bit clumsy, couldn’t parse the love in 13d. I liked pillowcase but thought slob in Bolsover was a bit rude!
Thanks PeterO – as you say, quite a tussle. And I think our non-UK solvers are entitled to feel a bit miffed about BOLSOVER.
Does anyone else get irritated by the likes of 19, where you can’t tell from the clue whether to enter RELIT or TILER?
Yes, Roger@8, not happy with BOLSOVER except that I can add another “jorum” to the collection. to Rewolf@7, I don’t understand your issue with bantam = small. I am not sure it has any other meaning except as an abbreviation for a small something (chicken, boxer, etc.). Thanks to PeterO and Pasquale – I had to work for this one but enjoyed the challenge.
Roger @8
I entered TILER first and changed to RELIT later on
I was going to object to the “temptress” part of the clue for 13d FALL IN LOVE. Quite a bit of scriptural scholarship in recent years has questioned that stereotyping of Eve, Mother of All, as temptress, and to blame for all the consequences of “The Fall”. Here is one a light-hearted link https://theconversation.com/temptress-eve-prostitute-mary-magdalene-and-the-awkward-truth-about-the-bibles-women-56771
Thanks Pasquale and Peter O. Very enjoyable. Had WEATHERMAN at first for 14d. My favourite was of course the beast of BOLSOVER as Dennis is a distant relation of mine.
In these days of spiralling homelessness and sky high rents its also worth remembering the stance of Dennis’s 2 brothers, David and Graham who took a 1 stand over the Tories 1972 Rent Act as reported here: https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/clay_cross_part_two/
Re KL colin above
Yes a bit nitpicky about Bantam. But small is an adjective and bantam a noun. With your logic feather would = light and welter would = medium heavy.
I enjoyed this, but familiarity with the biblical characters and Greek mythology certainly helped; so many thanks to Pasquale. Whilst Dennis Skinner and Jon Snow are pretty well known in the UK I too sympathize with michelle@1 and JinA@2 (and others) about these being hard for non-UK solvers.
It seems that the word “tonk” is not widely used in Australia – I rather like the word myself (and use it from time to time) and so “knot” was a relatively easy one for me. As far as “relit” is concerned, it wasn’t a problem for me as I already had crossers by the time I got to it but I completely agree with Roger@8 about this sort of ambiguity; I do think that setters should try to avoid this if they can.
However I don’t want to end on a critical note; so thanks again to Pasquale for a fine crossword (and to PeterO for the, as always, excellent blog).
Thanks Pasquale and PeterO
Rewolf @ 14: as well as the noun, Chambers has
adjective
1. Of bantam breed
2. Little and combative
so Pasquale would seem to be off the hook.
Pasquale at his best I thought, if not his toughest (a relief). I can’t agree about 19ac. The extra ambiguity is surely hard won on the part of the compiler, and justified. It’s supposed to be a challenge!
Thanks to Pasquale and PeterO. SW corner took some guessing and check button featured heavily. Otherwise enjoyable.
Thanks to Pasquale for an enjoyable puzzle and PeterO for clarifying some parsing. My experience was similar to PeterO, by solving in four quarters. However mine slightly different, with SE first, then NE followed by NW and finally SW. Last ones for me were knot, latter and bantam. I liked pillowcase, billow and fall in love but many other nice clues. I do have a vague memory of Denis Skinner waving the mace around in the commons chamber, and maybe this why he got the nickname? Thanks again to Pasquale and PeterO.
Took a while to get going and my biblical knowledge is not good, so whilst I know of ABEL, I didn’t know he was a shepherd. I also didn’t know what Jacob wrenched from Esau. I had to work these out from the wordplay and crossers. Mrs Paddington Bear will be ahead of me here.
NESTORIUS was a DNK as I suspect it was for many others. Not the crisp clueing that I prefer – 10ac and the well-documented 24ac are particular examples.
Thanks Pasquale and PeterO.
I couldn’t find the word ‘shiasement’ in dictionaries, so had to settle for DEBASEMENT instead.
It’s typical of Pasquale to use a word like BOLSOVER instead of, say, balloted. However, I did like the ‘slob’ over clue. I don’t suppose I’ll remember NESTORIUS, although the wordplay was going to give this or something similar. A bit uncharacteristic of Pasquale to clue SPEED OF LIGHT as ‘can’t go any faster,’ I thought.
PetHay@19: Apparently the beast nickname originates from Skinner’s comments during a tribute debate following the death of Anthony Eden; see
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/feb/11/dennis-skinner-birthday-80-interview
for example.
Nice to have CRICKETER, BAT and TONK worked in different ways into the same puzzle, since that verb is possibly most commonly – or least rarely – applied to what the cricket bat can do. Others may recall the late legendary ‘Tonker’ Taylor, longtime hard-hitting captain of Essex. (A witty appellation, if you think of Le Carré and the rhyme that he drew on…. a lot more so than most cricket nicknames: Stokesy, Morgs, etc.)
[Sorry about that huge blank white space in my comment – I had trouble getting the link to highlight so I copied it several times – and then deleted – and it highlighted itself once I had posted…but clearly pressing lots of “Enters” caused a problem.
Rick@15: I was not having a whinge about the UK references in the crossword – while I appreciate your sympathy I see it as par for the course, as I choose to do a UK crossword – certainly I learn a lot about Britain from doing these puzzles, so no violins are required. (Whilst Dennis Skinner and Jon Snow are pretty well known in the UK I too sympathize with michelle@1 and JinA@2 (and others) about these being hard for non-UK solvers.)
[Thanks quenbarrow@23 – we crossed – what a lovely onomatopoeia TONK is for the sound of bat on ball (assuming that is the origin of the nickname for “Tonker” Taylor.]
Thank you in turn, Julie @23. It is always a pleasure to read your messages, and to have reinforcement for the sense of being part of a global community of Guardian solvers. Am I right in recalling that you are based in the East? On my last – meaning most recent, but also probably final – visit to your great country to see friends and relatives, I completed my ‘set’ of the five major Test Match cricket grounds by stopping off in Perth to see a game at the WACA, pronounced Whacker. Now there is another wonderfully onomatopoeic bat-on-ball term! How sad that this historic stadium has now been marginalised in favour of a newly-built one.
sorry, I of course meant Julie @25
I enjoyed this puzzle. Does anyone else wish there were a more varied class of indicators for reverse-clues like BOLSOVER here? “Clue” or “cryptically” seem to give the game away a bit too easily, but maybe that’s fine as that type of clue is already a bit tricky to get your head around.
Thanks Pasquale and Peter O
Rick @ 22. Thanks, interesting reading, and clearly a colourful character with passionate beliefs about political direction.
I mis-parsed GEOTHERMAL, was thinking of GEO as an abbreviation of GEORGE (e.g. King G.). But the correct parsing is a lot better. Although BOLSOVER may not have occurred to everyone – especially those solving from overseas! – I thought it was an excellent reverse-clue. Well, that sort usually are!
Delighted to see, by pure coincidence, SPEED OF LIGHT in, on the day we hear of the passing of one of the most profound exponents of theoretical physics. R.I.P. Stephen Hawking.
And liked ABOMINATE – especially the reference to Ate, the Greek goddess of strife. Also brought the following piece of Clerihew-inspired nonsense to mind:
“Sir Humphrey Davy/Abominated gravy/He lived in the odium/Of having discovered sodium”
As to SPOTTED DICK – not the first time this has cropped up in a crossword, I think. I reckon Paul would have made something rather more risqué of it. Perhaps he already has? Links please?
Thanks to Don and Peter.
To Simon S above. Thanks, i live and learn!
Found this straightforward for Pasquale, but failed to get 24a. Very enjoyable.
A dnf for me today as I had RISE for 7d which works just as well with the clue but not with 10a which I consequently failed to get. I also didn’t parse ABOMINATE and was unsure of how BANTAM worked as I didn’t know it as an adjective.
Other than that there was plenty to enjoy and to learn as there always is with a Pasquale – to whom thanks along with PeterO.
PS great to see that Arachne added to the blog yesterday.
Thank you PeterO.
I usually like The Don’s learned style but there were too many unparsed here for me to enjoy, and rather too much of the bible.
Enjoyed the reference to The Beast and SPOTTED DICK but that’s BOUT IT.
Thank you Pasquale, nice week all.
Thanks to Pasquale and PeterO.
I found this a gentler Pasquale than usual. Bolsover was my FOI: as a one time 11dn I am familiar with the beast and his Parliamentary asides.
I thought the biblical references were fair: the stories of Cain and Abel and Jacob and Esau are well enough known. Cain tends to make more (murderous) appearances than his brother in crosswords.
I was held up briefly by tiler/relit, and also spent some time looking for a London borough ending in “low” (Harlow), thinking that was the “under the weather” indicator.
I really enjoyed this. BOLSOVER made me smile and reminded me of the time David Cameron described Dennis Skinner as a “dinosaur”.Dennis is still in the Commons but Cameron was last seen in a but at the bottom of his garden! I didn’t know NESTORIUS but it was obviously an anagram so I waited until I’d got the crossers. I assumed ABEL was a shepherd but I didn’t know if he was or not. My knowledge of the Bible is -er,limited. LOI was KNOT, Tonk who knew? It is in Chambers though.
Thanks Pasquale.
Thanks to PeterO and Pasquale. A mixed bag for me – solved NW and SE without to much difficulty but had brain fade with the other corners before coming here. BOLSOVER my favourite among my solutions. One upon a time I thought biblical and mythological references were the refuge of the lazy setter- I still don’t enjoy them overmuch but I’m a lot more tolerant nowadays !
Indeed Frankie the cat @20 you should have come to Sunday school with me!! I’m not happy with 8d because the solution looks like an anagram of a cryptic and I thought that broke the rules. Difficult puzzle but got there. And I enjoyed your description of spotted dick, PeterO.
Ah, Mr Paddington Bear has explained that name dropping means the n changes position. I stand corrected on post 38 about 8dn.
A real challenge. Really miffed at myself for not getting Knot. Tonk is such a lovely word.
Thanks to Pasquale and PeterO. Tough going for me. I see a difference between Biblical references as part of GK (though NESTORIUS was new to me) and items like BOLSOVER and John Snow-SOWN, but, as already pointed out, both are fair game in a UK puzzle. I had trouble with tonk-KNOT and BANTAM was my LOI.
Julie in Australia@11, hear, hear! Those were my thoughts about Eve once I’d parsed the solution. I think maybe Arachne would have clued this differently. 🙂
This wasn’t a very smooth solve for me, though I got there in the end. I lazily popped in SNOW instead of SOWN without parsing in 8d, which gave me some trouble with BILLOW (my LOI), until I finally twigged. I Googled ATE without much hope of it being the Greek mischief maker, so was pleasantly surprised. NESTORIUS was somewhere in the back of my mind as a name, so I guessed he was a heretic.
Nice to see the Beast of BOLSOVER. He is almost the Father of the House. Came into parliament at the same time as Kenneth Clarke, but KC was sworn in before Dennis, so gets the honour.
I think of SPOTTED DICK as a pudding rather than a sweet. Sweet to me implies something more refined, though possibly not as refined as dessert. Spotted Dick makes me think of the olden days, with no central heating and lino floors, when you needed something filling and comforting with lots of calories to combat the cold. Doesn’t stop me eating it from time to time now though.
Thanks to Pasquale for the workout, and PeterO for the comprehensive blog.
Crossbar @42, I did exactly the same – lazily put in SNOW, and spent a long time pondering Billio and cirrho and similar (non-)words before eventually realising my error and getting same LOI of BILLOW.
Loved 9a beast of BOLSOVER (sparing a thought for non-UK solvers), a good reminder of many excoriating contributions to the Chamber.
Struggled a bit on the SW and NE corners, but found the longer ones most satisfactory and slotted them in fairly quickly. Thanks to Pasquale for an enjoyable puzzle and PeterO for the blog above. Particularly glad for the ABOMINATE parsing – didn’t think ETA would be properly described as a troublemaker and had forgotten ATE.
LA Chatelaine@43 Billio was one of my thoughts too 😀
Thanks both,
I really don’t like the extraneous ‘one’ in 10a. It renders the logical structure of the clue invalid. 24a defeated me.
A typical Pasquale puzzle for me.
Some loose cluing.
Some “esoterica”
Some eccentricity
All mentioned already!
Still at the easier end of his spectrum though.
It does not, Tyngewick.
[as I see it]
Shall I make one some tea?
A curate’s egg.
Got stuck by entering Snow for 8dn and Nightdress for 2dn
Finally made it here, after another busy day at work. I had the entire puzzle *except* 9ac solved hours ago — I finally caved in and used online solving aids (trial and check on the Guardian site, Wikipedia thereafter) to complete the grid with BOLSOVER. So it was a TILT (Thing I Learned Today) for me. (I prefer TILT to DNF.) Still, it was a fun and challenging puzzle (which, for me, they pretty much all are). GEOTHERMAL was my favorite.
Happy to see one of The Three Most Important Rivers in Crosswordland make an appearance in 1ac. As a river, no less (as opposed to a flower or a runner).
Robi @21: “shiasement” – Ha Ha!
Many thanks to Pasquale and PeterO and the other commenters.
The religious and classical references I didn’t struggle with, but the parliamentary beast, difficulty and odd definition of “small” I did. As did others, so it appears I’m in good company. The former was new to me, the latter evidently BAN or BAR something but with a tricky definition it was difficult to work out what. Did I hit the Reveal button? Yes I did, so a DNF. Never mind, an enjoyable puzzle nevertheless.
[Really appreciate your kind and inclusive message, quenbarrow@26. So glad you have visited Australia and you know all those cricket grounds. I agree about the WACA. Wondering if you got to see The Gabba in Brisbane on your pilgrimage??? Not onomatopoeic at all for bats on balls – instead an abbreviation for the aboriginal place name Woolloongabba, which means either ‘whirling waters’ (woolloon and capemm) or ‘fight talk place’ (woolloon and gabba) – the latter meaning could of course relate to sledging, an unfortunate practice which I am embarrassed to say some Aussie cricketers have perpetrated…
I lived in Brisbane for much of my life, but now live an hour north at the Sunshine Coast, so yes I am from the East.
Very glad too that I am connected to this international community – the loneliness of the long-distance cryptic solver has been much ameliorated since I discovered 15 Squared!]
julie@51 – it’s a pleasure to write a footnote, the morning after yesterday’s blog, during a visit to a cold Edinburgh. I did watch a Test at the Gabba, but that was in late 1982, before the ground was radically changed, as of course Adelaide has been. At least those two have not moved to a new site, like Perth – but it’s good that the WACA will evidently continue being used for some games rather than being pulled down. Have gabba or waca ever featured in a Guardian crossword, as wordplay or solution, and, if not, would they be acceptable? Could perhaps do something with MACAW… My brother lived in Queensland (Gatton) in 1982-3, but had moved to South Australia (Renmark) by the time of my last visit in 2016. Anyway, it’s good to know that you are not just ‘in Australia’ but specifically on the sunshine coast.
Pasquale under one of his other identities sets for the Church Times: the context seems to have rubbed off.
Was anyone else trying to put ROOK into 9 for the parliament of rooks?
Had 8 unfilled in the end.
Someone mentioned tonk not being popular in Australia – I’d never heard of it here in the UK either 🙂
“Et al” 27a doesn’t mean “the others”, it means “with the others.” The definition underline should extend a bit farther.
With some crossers, I got BOLSOVER, which I’ve heard somewhere, without the least idea of what either it or the clue meant, but Jon Snow defeated me.
I’d always thought SPOTTED DICK was a pudding, not in the English sense of “any dessert,” but something like rice pudding. Now I see it’s a baked good. Now Crossbar @42 tells me that there’s a distinction between “pudding,” “sweet” and “dessert,” when I’d thought that (in the UK) they were interchangeable.
Thanks, Pasquale and PeterO, from another sleepy daylight timesaver.
Regarding 27a ETHEREAL, I should perhaps point out that instead of ‘with the others’ the clue should have said ‘and others’.
The Latin ‘et al’ means ‘and others’.
These may be comments into the ether at this stage … but I can’t resist commenting, as I still have over half of today’s offering to do once Dr LC returns from the hills so am resisting looking at today’s blog.
Crossbar @44, thanks for the solidarity.
Jovis @48 … it’s interesting that people now use ‘curate’s egg’ to mean a varied collection of better and worse bits, whereas the original meaning must surely be that it’s overall bad, as it’s a rotten egg. My dictionary in fact bears your usage out and not my suggestion, but it’s a curious etymology whereby the original euphemism is now used straight, without irony.
DaveMc @49: I do like TILT, very much. A TILT.
Valentine@55: Definitely not a baked good. It’s a pudding, and you need to steam it – you cook it in a steamer or pressure cooker on the stove top. As a European/Brit resident in the UK most of my span, I would say that while there are some technical distinctions between those labels, at a certain level they remain interchangeable. Also AFTERS – which I kicked myself last week for not getting, when I’d been thinking about sweet and dessert as a alternative generic types of pud. My partner’s late mum (born 1917) used to get very cross at anyone using any other term than pudding (e.g. sweet, dessert) and thought them pretentious.
AlanB@56: surely ‘with’ is syntactically/logically equivalent to ‘and’ and so unexceptionable for a cryptic crossword?
La Chatelaine
Yes, ‘with’ and ‘and’ are pretty much equivalent (especially in crosswords), but the point of contention is the word ‘the’. The meaning of ‘and the others’ is quite distinct from that of ‘and others’. (That is true also if you use ‘with’ instead of ‘and’.) Just as ‘et cetera’ is distinct from ‘et al’.
Late but just to say Newby-Lurker woz ere too. Yes, Huggie, I tried to make rook fit into 9. Mrs N-L came to the rescue.
Thanks all for the puzzle, blog and comments.