Guardian Cryptic 27,604 by Pan

59 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 27,604 by Pan”

1. As you say Manehi, a bit tricky for a Monday. Had to come here to parse SOLITAIRE. Just didn’t see “so lit” as two words. *sighs*.

   Thanks Pan and Manehi.

2. Thanks Pan and manehi

   Entertaining and quite difficult, especially in the SW.

   Is it OK to use “letter” for MU without specifying Greek?

3. Thank you manehi – especially for identifying ‘Am’ as an abbreviation for ‘American’ (in SESAME at 22a). Not something I’d encountered before. I spent a while trying to work out how Mangetout could be the type of pea at 5, before twigging that another type would fit. Thanks Pan for a more testing and pleasing Monday than usual.

4. Thank you Pan and manehi.  Very enjoyable.  Both 3d DWELL and 14d ELEVENSES made me smile.

   Is it just a coincidence that we got MUSHY and PEAS at 23d and 26a?

5. Yes this was a bit more challenging than I was expecting. I liked PIPEDREAM at 1a. I got SOLITAIRE for Patience at 7d but like Crossbar@1 had to come here for the parsing. The anagrams for 8/21a JAPANESE KNOTWEED and 5d/26a MARROWFAT PEAS held out for far too long.
   Many thanks to Pan and manehi.

6. Well spotted, Lord Jim@4. I’d say no coincidence!
   BTW, I think I liked 1a PIPEDREAM because I was reminded of Pan’s pan pipes!

7. Panpipes one word?

8. I thought “Very bright” for SO LIT was a bit tenuous. Other than that little to add.

9. muffin@2, I would say quite common not to mention Greek for letters as they are so often used in Maths and Physics.

   I couldn’t parse largesse

   ‘Am’ did not occur to me either. So ‘american’ can be US, A, or Am. Anything else?

10. Actually, just realised that the term ‘character’ is normally used rather than ‘letter’.

11. On AM = american.  Are folk here too young to remember Pan (how apposite!) Am airways?  But we still have Amtrak.

     

    Thanks Pan and manehi.

     

12. Muffin @2:  “Entertaining & quite difficult”.  Hmm…pretty much trumps what I was going to say!  Also agree on your mu comment but it’s becoming acceptable, I think.

    F the C @8:  Really?  I thought this pretty fair.

    Finee job, Pan, ideal Monday fare.

    Nice week, all.

13. NA or, more trickily, SA (and cruelly, CA) would also fit “American” as “of the Americas.”

14. Got through this surprisingly quickly, although I needed the blog for a couple of the parsings. Felt there were a surfeit of ‘Top British Men’. Enjoyable nonetheless.

    Thanks Pan and manehi.

15. Good Monday solve, thanks Pan. Generally good surfaces to the clues.

    Thanks Manehi; it took a while for the PDM of NASA in 20 because ‘a small coin’ could have given the ASCENT part of the solution.

    In LARGESSE, I don’t know why the setter can’t put the more correct student’s leader instead of student leader. It doesn’t affect the surface negatively.

16. I’ve had pie and mushy peas (in JinA’s territory, never in the West), but dnk marrowfat at all. LOI solitaire, took ages and a biff, assuming Aire was a river. So yes a bit tricky for Monday, in fact a dnf as I couldn’t nut out the knot in 21, so cheated by googling Japanese duckweed, knowing it would correct me. Hey ho. Fun all the same. Thanks Pan and Manehi. PS liked the surfaces of 15a and 20d.

17. I was happy for “student” to be an adjectival noun in the surface of 25a. Was less happy to see LSE for “university” – it isn’t, it is a school of the University of London.

    But I didn’t let my pedantry upset my enjoyment, so Pan and manehi still get my thanks…

18. Frankie@8 – so=very, lit=bright would be a better explanation

19. Is it a tradition thing Trismegistus? If it is it has a long lag. I read that the LSE was subsumed by, and became the Econs faculy of, the U of L in 1900, yet an old mate of mine, whose dad was a Prof there, was still calling the whole campus LSE many decades later.

20. Thanks to Pan and manehi. Enjoyable. MARROWFAT PEAS and TIDDLER were new to me but gettable from the clues.

21. grantinfreo @19 – I apologise if I may be a little out of date. Wikipedia desribes LSE as “a public research university located in London, England, and a constituent college of the federal University of London”. It then goes on to say, “Although LSE is a constituent college of the federal University of London, it is in many ways comparable with free-standing, self-governing and independently funded universities, and it awards its own degrees.”

    I always thought the test was whether or not an institution awarded its own degrees, and when I was there over 40 years ago, its degrees were awarded by the University of London. According to the LSE’s own website it was given the right to confer its own degrees in 2006.

    But I’m only confused now – can it be both an independent university and a constituent college? I need more coffee…

22. Thanks to Pan and manehi. I often find it tricky to get my head around some of Pan’s clues, and this was no different. I had quite a bit of guess and then parse, and stilled needed to come here to clarify some parsing (e.g largesse). Like F the C@8 I was unsure on so lit aire, but on reflection I now quite like it. I also liked cameos and thanks again to Pan and manehi.

23. Trismegistus, it sounds like the war of the roses, cause and consequent non-unravelable!

24. Thanks to Pan and Manehi.

    Somewhat chewy for a Monday but enjoyable nonetheless with JAPANESE KNOTWEED and MARROWFAT PEAS offering nice “aha!”s.  I blanche slightly at “look” and “see” being offered as equivalents in SESAME, rather as I would with “hear” and “listen”, but that’s my sublimated pedantry trying to surface.

25. Nothing too taxing here, but not by any means a write-in either.

    Thanks to Pan and manehi

26. I did not know of Japanese knotwood, and I only had vague recollection of a type of peas called marrowfat. So the long botanical anagrams needed every crossing letter for me. Plants are often my undoing.

    Am. for American is common enough here. Often seen in dictionaries; also in abbreviations that are meant to be pronounced. Pan Am, the now-defunct airline, is the best example off the top of my head.

    There’s also Amer. for American, but I’ve never seen that in a crossword.

27. Thank you Pan and Manhehi.
    ELEVENSES brought back happy memories of Grandma, who always had, and offered it.
    I don’t recall anyone else ever using the term in my presence.
    I often explain the large scale of some British aristocrats or royalty as not
    very surprising, when a standard day would go:
    Breakfast, elevenses, luncheon, high-tea, dinner and supper; with a spot of brunch or hamper with the shooting, if you got peckish, (not forgetting Wooster’s midnight raids.)

28. il principe dell’oscurità @27 I’m not sure that any self respecting aristocrat would ever partake of either elevenses or high tea, Paddington bear on the other hand was a fan of both.

29. I had an inkling that elevenses might be a little bourgeois, but I thought tea was fairly universal.

30. Not the usual Monday fare and not especially easy. I didn’t know MAST although the answer was obvious from the wordplay. I didn’t parse LARGESSE but again the answer was obvious as was TAFFRAIL which I’d never heard of.
    Talking of LSE, I used to have access to the library when I was a postgraduate at Reading and I thought LSE referred to the whole caboodle.
    Thanks Pan.

31. Nothing wrong with 9a being RANKLE, but I had KINDLE [to provoke, incite – Chambers] which slowed me down.

     

32. Thanks both,

    Aristocrats might take afternoon tea, possibly with a cucumber sandwich and a scone, but high tea was a knife and fork job with cold meats etc. You probably wouldn’t eat it if you were expecting dinner.

33. I was convinced 9A somehow had to be BEETLE so that screwed my Northeast. Other than that I did OK.

34. Tynge @32: Thanks for pointing out an important distinction between two pseudo-meals. The term “high tea” is so often misused. To me the classic high tea includes kedgeree, but admittedly I haven’t partaken of such a meal for at least 50 years.

35. El Ingles @34

    It was always Welsh Rarebit for “high tea” with us!

    I heartily dislike the “cucumber sandwich” type of “afternoon tea”. I’m sure that it has negative dietary benefit…

36. Chiming in from America…

    I always enjoy Guardian cryptics, even as a Yank, because I love the challenge (which in addition to the obvious normal cryptic difficulties) of trying to fathom things familiar to British solvers which may be “alien” to me. I always admit defeat (!) when I don’t get a clue but later see that the parsing is valid.

    Having said that… I have a few gripes about today, maybe due to the transatlantic distance?

    To me, PIPE DREAM is 2 words (even seems so in the parsing above); “tele” is a VERY dubious abbreviation for TV. I could see “telly” or something, but tele? ; I also disagree with “mixing” different versions of same-idea abbreviations within the same clue, i.e. RIGHT+L or S+AM; and lastly, some abbreviations just seem dubious: A for Australian and S for Special.

    BUT! that all might be because of my US customs and usage. Just curious if anyone else has a thought?

    Love the chalelnge everyday nonetheless!

37. *challenge

38. muffin @35: Well, cucumber sarnies are a bit twee, obviously, but crab paste in bridge rolls OH YES.

39. IMHO, an immaculately clued crossword from Pan.

    A puzzle that makes clear why it is that she was ‘promoted’ to the daily section [unlike others, and rightly so (compare this to today’s Quiuptic and Taste The Difference)].

    A tad too difficult for a Monday? Mmm, maybe, but all very nice.

    And you can search her out in the Independent too nowadays!

    Many thanks to manehi & Pan.

40. All of you commenting on tea: Kentish cream tea surely!!

    Great crossy many thanks Pan and manehi

41. Glenn @ 36

    S = Special: eg brandy – VSOP = Very Special Old Pale, or [UK police] SB = Special Branch

    A = Australia is Chambers definition 21 in entry 3

    hth

42. Thanks for coming on here Glenn. I’ll probably be the last to comment so I’ll address a couple of points at least….”telly” or “tele” are both acceptable abbreviations in the UK; I’ve always thought (perhaps incorrectly?) Of “pipedream” as a single word, if only because of the we say it. And personally i have no objection to the mixed abbreviation device.
    Having said all that, I appreciate the extra layer of difficulty that transatlantis solvers must have with British cryptics. I have lived in Australia for many years and so occasionally have slight problems with current UK references, but I can see how much harder it would be for “septics”. (That’s Aussie rhyming slang – look it up!) 🙂

43. Simon S @41

    I’m not disagreeing that S can be clued by “special”, but in principle I don’t think that an initial in a longer list can justify the abbreviation – after all, would you accept “broadcasting” to give B as that’s what it stands for in the middle of BBC?

    S.Panza @40

    Do they have cream in Kent? Devon (or, at a stretch, Cornish) cream tea, please (though, despite having been brought up in Devon, I wouldn’t dream of eating – ugh!)

44. Me @43 and Simon @41

    I had an aquaintance who was delighted that his new suit had “SP” on the label, thinking it meant “special”. He was more than a little disappointed to be told it stood for “Short and Portly”!

45. Missed the C in “acquaintance” – thought it didn’t look right!

46. muffin @ 43: I take your point, but look at the number of times S is indicated by Society. I’ve never seen it as a standalone.

    My view is that if there are multiple instances of an abbreviation in different contexts (which is why I chose drink and police earlier), then it’s *probably* acceptable.

    So I’d accept R indicated by Royal, RN indicated by Royal Navy, but probably not N by Navy.

    I don’t think it can be hard and fast, and I may think differently tomorrow.

47. Thanks to Simon, Gert, and Muffin. I will continue to plow along and just accept my “handicap”. Plus, every now and then there’s a singularly American reference/clue, so will be sure to appreciate it! 🙂

48. Sil @ 39: what handle does Pan use when setting for the Independent?  As an aside, it would be nice to get the “setters” tab here updated — Pan is missing!

49. Alliacol @48

    “As an aside, it would be nice to get the “setters” tab here updated — Pan is missing!”

    Pan is in the ‘Setters’ page with a link to the Crossword Who’s Who entry, which doesn’t give any further information.

50. I didn’t know about marrowfat peas and had never heard of a taffrail, but the clues led me to the answer, and I got the always-satisfying experience of figuring out a new word from the wordplay and discovering that it actually exists.

    For some reason, I couldn’t spot BASEMENT for the longest time, even though in hindsight it seems like a dead easy clue.

    I guess I’m not the only one who was wondering “How do you get SEME from ‘look for’?” But once it’s pointed out to me, Am. for America is perfectly fine.  And, pace Glenn @36, there’s nothing wrong with this sort of “mixing”. If it makes you feel better, treat “South” and “American” as two separate cryptic elements, clued by S and Am. respectively, rather than as a unit. And I found “both sides” for RIGHT + L to be perhaps the cleverest bit in this puzzle.

51. Alliacol @48, I just used my imagination.

    And then I got confirmation from elsewhere.

    That’s the only thing I can say about it.

    So, perhaps you should use your imagination?

52. I did this a long time ago now (early in the morning), but couldn’t get CAMEOS and initially thought MARROWFAT PEAS, of which I hadn’t heard, might be MANGETOUT as I had the first and last letters. Anyway, it was all good fun if a bit tricky for a Monday. Many thanks to Pan and manehi – and bravo to glenn@36 for taking on the challenge of a UK cryptic.

53. Gaufrid @49:  I was looking in the wrong place!  My apologies.

54. Pex @ 9: I have seen “GI” clued as “american”

55. Thanks RogerGS and Lenient for those offerings.

    I’m surprised to see so many who haven’t heard of Marrowfat peas. Next to garden peas I think they are the most common on UK shelves.

     

56. I thought this was tough, and persisted more because of a stubborn refusal to quit than from great pleasure in the challenge – so I definitely fit into the “a bit hard for a Monday” team. As so often with Pan, several answers were inspired guesses, semi-parsed. Hello Glenn, welcome to the fray. I promise you the vast majority of Britons call it a “telly”, not a “tele” – though it’s possible the latter term may be in more common use amongst Classicists. Like many before me in this blog, I think a few of the solutions are stretching it a bit: “am” to me = “morning”, not “American” – and “Amtrak” only leads me to wonder if “Trak” is also considered viable?? Taffrail was new to me, as was the element Palladium (i only knew the showbiz variety). However, I thoroughly enjoyed Nascent, Sprightly and Solitaire. Thanks to Pan and Manehi

57. pex @55 — At least a few of the people who haven’t heard of marrowfat peas are from other parts of the world.

58. To me “septic” looks like the way one would pronounce “sceptic;” we put a K in it so it’s unambiguous and not to be pronounced like scent.

59. Valentine: I like the American spelling “skeptic”. It’s closer to the original Greek with the letter kappa.

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