Thanks to Boatman for the themed crossword. Definitions are underlined in the clues.
Across
8 Wooded area and lake conceal backward-looking rip off (8)
ARBOREAL : [AREA plus(and) L(abbrev. for “lake”) ] containing(conceal) reversal of(backward-looking) ROB(to rip off;to swindle).
9 With 26 across, often found quietly replacing leading firms (5)
POUND : “p”(abbrev. for “piano”, musical instruction to play quietly) replacing 1st letter of(leading) “firms“, in “found“.
Answer: A pound shop(answer to 26 across) is one selling inexpensive merchandise, costing £1 each.
I’m not sure whether I’ve got the intended definition.
10 Historical payment for spy to remove uniform (4)
SCOT : “scout”(a spy;one sent ahead to obtain advance information about the enemy) minus(to remove) “u”(abbrev. for “uniform”).
Defn: … corresponding to the modern-day tax.
11 Sole trader on the 24? (10)
FISHMONGER : Cryptic defn: One selling sole and other seafood in a town’s High Street;answer to 24 across.
12 Out-of-town supermarket admits responsibility (4,2)
OWNS UP : Hidden in(Out-of) “town supermarket“.
14 Money man gets parole — at last, free (8)
BUCKSHEE : BUCKS(slang for money;dollars) + HE(third person pronoun denoting a man) plus(gets) last letter of(… — at last) “parole“.
Defn: … of charge;without any payment, in slang.
16 Type of apostrophe produced by semi-literate costermonger (not me!) should be deleted (7)
GROCER’S : Anagram of(semi-literate;poorly written) [ “costermonger” minus(… should be deleted) “not me” ].
Defn: The apostrophe that is mistakenly used on a sign and that should therefore be deleted – something that a semi-literate costermonger might do.
Though of course, other establishments do it too.
18 Odd? Put a revised total (3,2,2)
ADD UP TO : Anagram of(… revised) ODD? PUT A.
21 Make good lunch when? Late afternoon, say? (5,3)
ATONE FOR : [AT ONE …](o’clock;answer to the question of when lunch is) + homophone of(…, say) “four …”(o’clock;a time in the late afternoon).
23 See 2
24 Eminent setter making changes to the traditional marketplace (4,6)
HIGH STREET : HIGH(eminent;elevated) + anagram of(… making changes) SETTER.
Defn: The traditional site for most shops, banks and other businesses in a town.
26 See 13
27 Come back without second part of 9 (5)
OUNCE : “bounce”(to come back;to be reflected back) minus(without) “b”(second letter of the alphabet, signifying the second in a series).
Defn: 1 of 16 equal parts in the unit of weight, the pound;answer to 9 across.
28 One offers concessions in a shopping centre to wipe out first of retailers to go back (8)
APPEASER : A + middle 2 letters of(… centre) “shopping” + ERASE(to wipe out;to delete) with its 1st letter of(first of) “retailers” repositioned to the end(to go back).
Down
1 One cause of decline in the 24: filthy WC, repair needed (5,3)
PRICE WAR : Anagram of(filthy) WC, REPAIR.
The solution was held up by trying to force “needed” into the wordplay.
Defn: …;High Street businesses.
2, 23 across Before, it was on every 24; after, unavailable, it’s frozen (4,6)
POST OFFICE : POST(a preposition signifying “after”;subsequent to) + OFF(to denote that an item in a menu is unavailable) + ICE(substance that is frozen).
Defn: A facility that formerly;before was in every High Street;answer to 24 across in town.
3 Make stronger source of protein more pricey? (4,2)
BEEF UP : BEEF(a source of animal protein) + UP(describing an item that has increased in price, as in “gold is up”).
4 Shut down empty bakery, conveniently located (5,2)
CLOSE BY : CLOSE(to shut down, as with a business, say) + “bakery” minus all its inner letters(empty …).
5 Set up plans for cheap source of protein (4)
SPAM : Reversal of(Set up, in a down clue) MAPS(plans;diagrammatic representations of features of an area).
6 Deception in amusing farce (5,5)
FUNNY STUFF : FUNNY(amusing;comical) + STUFF(to farce;to stuff with, well, seasoned stuffing, as with a turkey before roasting it).
Defn: Irregular, often illegal, actitivies.
7 Stick to what you’ll find in the classifieds? (6)
ADHERE : [AD(short for “advertisement”) HERE](what you’ll find;what you can say about the classified ad pages in a newspaper, say).
13, 26 across Temporarily transfer worker to grass: it’s growing on the 24 (6-4,4)
SECOND-HAND SHOP : SECOND(to temporarily transfer a worker to other employment or another department) + HAND(a worker, especially one doing manual work) + SHOP(like “grass”, slang for “to inform on someone”).
Defn: More of this type of store are opening up in the High Street;answer to 24 across.
15 How to pay for something from an 11? (3)
COD : Double defn: 1st: Abbrev. for “Cash On Delivery”, payment when the purchased item is delivered to buyer; and 2nd: Like sole, something from the fishmonger;answer to 11 across.
17 One is on top of recording every foul (3)
REF : 1st letters, respectively, of(top of, in a down clue) “recording every foul“.
Defn: One who is in charge;on top of a game, including recording every foul committed by the players.
19 No more credit to do minimal business? (4,4)
TICK OVER : TICK(slang for “credit terms”, as in “he bought the TV on tick”) OVER(no more;finished).
20 Butcher learns a place to keep things that might go off (7)
ARSENAL : Anagram of(Butcher) LEARNS A.
Defn: …, explode, that is.
22 Boatman changing direction for chemist’s last place on the 24 (6)
TAILOR : “sailor”(a boatman;a man working on a boat) with its “s”(abbrev. for “south”, a direction) replaced by(changing … for) last letter of(…’s last) “chemist“.
23 “Love, constant, above all” — Boatman’s sea creatures (6)
OCTOPI : O(letter representing 0;”love” in tennis scores) + C(symbol representing a quantity in mathematics or physics whose value does not change, or, specifically, the speed of light, a universal constant) + TOP(above all, as in “top of the class”) + I(first person pronoun for the setter, Boatman, used self-referentially).
Defn: … whose singular is “octopus”.
25 A long walk for Mum going out with market disbanded (4)
TREK : Anagram of
(with… disbanded) “market” minus(… going out) “Ma”(like “Mum”, an informal term for one’s mother).
26 Criticise half-hearted shopping centres, when erected (4)
SLAM : Reversal of(…, when erected, in a down clue) “malls”(shopping centres) minus 1 of a pair of its inner letters(half-hearted …).
The plural of octopus can be octopuses or octpodes. Octopi is sometimes found but is wrong, and the clue should recognise that.
Thanks scchua. Though I was initially deterred by the number of cross-refs, in the end, it was all pretty plain sailing for me. But thoughtful and enjoyable nevertheless. So, thank you for a pleasant cruise Boatman.
Enjoyed this. Learnt a new meaning for ‘farce’. New to me, that is. Not keen on 26d. The centre of MALLS is L (or ALL) neither of which can be halved. The intention is clear though.
My Chambers, unsurprisingly, say OCTUPI is wrong.
Thanks to Boatman and scchua.
Very enjoyable. I too lament the demise of the 24a HIGH STREET – although here the shops might have sometimes been called main streets or strip shops. In fact I had Main Street for a start as th key clue. FISHMONGER 11a is a very British word (as indeed is ”costermonger” in 16a), but 11a and 15d COD were still my favourites.
Here we call the “floating apostrophe” a “greengrocer’s apostrophe”. They continue to proliferate. I want to make their perpetrators write out a hundred times, “There is no apostrophe in a simple plural”. Aaaargh!
Thanks to Boatman and scchua.
Goujeers @1 – quite right [I know you meant ‘octopodes’].
Latin words ending in ‘us’ have a plural ending in ‘i’ – but octopus comes from the Greek oktopous [having eight feet] and so the [archaic] plural is ‘octopodes’. The accepted plural now is ‘octopuses’. Chambers [which often lets the setter off the hook] unequivocally states, ‘Octopi is wrong’.
Thanks Boatman and scchua. Nice use of theme entwined in both clues and answers. I liked the “sole trader” at 11a. And the traditional dual use of “Boatman” at 22d and 23d (one being an actual boatman and the other being I/me).
Too many good clues to mention. All clever and funny. Thanks Boatman.
And thanks scchua for 9 across. I should have got that. It’s called a $2 shop here.
Thanks for the blog. Needed your help to parse ounce – missed the bounce. Nice puzzle, but not convinced by “stuff” as a synonym for farce, and I don’t think that mals is half hearted malls, although I successfully inferred the correct answers.
What a great crossword and what a trip dowm memory lane to an era when a High Street really defined the village or town. So, many many thanks Boatman!! Also thanks to Scchua for the detailed blog and nudges to parsings I was not sure of. Many favourites but I do think COD was quite brilliant, along with SCOT. Also great for the GROCERS appostrophy to make an appearance. Scchua, your Donut example is quite brilliant!! Not too hard but a laugh a minute so no complaints from me!!
Thank you scchua for the detailed explanations and lovely pictures. Well done for finding the Grocer’s sign.
A couple of years ago I saw a new car showroom advertising ‘Jaguar’s’ in massive 3d letters.
I meant Donut’s sign of course and crossed with Panza.
I liked the theme. I try to support our local shops whenever I can, particularly the smaller ones. Over the last 40 years I have noticed our small shops close one by one. The latest to close was a small electical shop which had been using for the last thirty years.
The problem with buying from the internet (Ebay/Amazon) is that you are buying “blind”. For example, I ordered a corner shelf which was pictured having supports. If I went to a shop I would have noticed immediately. Getting a refund – if you manage it at all- is a terrific hassle.
Andy@8. Agree with criticism of SLAM, see my comment @3. I also mentioned ‘farce’ for ‘stuff’ was new to me but it is ok. Stuffing a turkey with ‘forcemeat’ is to farce it. Who knew?
For 9a, I thought the whole clue offered a definition of sorts.
I stupidly bunged in PENCE for 27a, which of course didn’t parse and made 22d impossible.
I really liked TICK OVER.
Many thanks Boatman, and thanks scchua
Thanks, scchua, for the blog and Boatman for the puzzle, with a theme that’s increasingly poignant.
JinA, I’m more familiar with the greengrocer’s apostrophe, too, as found on market stalls. A colleague of mine once said she was thinking of giving up trying to teach the apostrophe, since there seemed to be more occasions when it was wrong to use it than those where it was wrong to leave it out.
My favourite recent example is the car accessories shop advertising ‘top box’s’.
Eileen @5 – quite right [I know you meant some Latin words ending in …]
The problem is that the incorrect form is more or less the norm – its in Chambers. Is there a grocer in the house?
Thanks to Boatman and scchua. I usually struggle with this setter but this puzzle was great fun. I’m another who started with Main Street (the US version) but getting the correct answer helped other items to fall into place. I did not know BUCKSHEE or the Grocer’s apostrophe (though both were gettable from the clues) and took a long time getting COD, my LOI.
Took me a while to get HIGH STREET but once done, everything unfolded nicely. Clever and amusing. I note the quibbles referenced above but they didn’t spoil it for me. And I’m willing to bet dictionaries in the future will allow OCTOPI because it’s now common usage, despite being wrong. Language is like that. Usage trumps origin.
Very enjoyable and a much more agreeable use of a theme than yesterday’s offering, Spam brought back happy memories of Hawaiian vacations (generally spent not eating Spam).
Is octopi wrong or just not accepted as right by enough people yet (like literally in the sense of figuratively, forte pronounced ‘fortay’ as a personal strength, say as in “what does the letter say?”, etc).
In defence of Dunkin’ Donuts I think the error shown was made by whoever put the sign up at that particular branch and misplaced the apostrophe that should (correctly) have stood in for the g.
Thanks to Boatman and scchua.
Thanks both
Are people who say OCTOPI ignorami
My experience was similar to Bullhassocks@2. Unusually (for me) all my ticks were against down clues – POST OFFICE COD and ARSENAL which was my loi. Many thanks to scchua for the illustrated blog and to Boatman for an entertaining puzzle.
?
Thank you, Dicho @16 – yes, of course I did. 😉
Robert @19, yes, OCTOPI is wrong- see Chambers.
Thanks, Shirl @20. 😉
I agree with Eileen that “greengrocer’s apostrophe” is a more common version of the phrase, and that version would fit better with the costermonger, meaning a fruit-seller, from costard = apple.
I think I’ve mentioned it before, but I always remember a fruit & veg stall on Cambridge market that used to have a sign advertising Cactu’s Pear’s. Another local example (not a grocer of any kind) is a children’s clothing shop advertising itself as Kid’s Classic’s – evidence here.
I wonder if there are any other examples in Chambers where prescriptively calls a usage “wrong”, or is OCTOPI the only one?
Glad to see enjoyment being had …
Eileen and others – Yes, I do feel sympathy for those who remember their Greek and despair at the acceptance of usages like “octopi”, but in this case it was too tempting, and the effect of the clue was so beguiling that I couldn’t put it out of my mind. I read Chambers’ entry when I was writing the clue, and was very amused by their forthright condemnation, which, if anything, made me more inclined to rebel! Etymologically, it’s quite clear that they’re right, but should we constrain language so that it may not develop from its thousand-year roots? Chambers is quite happy, for example, to accept either “referendums” or “referenda” as the plural of that problematic word, which would bother some people, but not me.
As for the grocer’s apostrophe, on the other hand, that’s a development that I don’t like at all, as punctuation is clearly useful and not simply an historical convention. Mrs B and I once saw a handwritten label in our local branch of Currys (which should really be “Curry’s”, of course) on the line of power sockets behind a set of display pedestals saying “video’s on plimfs”, which kept us entertained for far longer than it should have done.
Who says greengrocer any more? Julie in Oz, it’s a cicada!
I loved the clue which had no apostrophe but should have, because it’s been deleted!
Eileen @27 I think you missed my point (which I slightly messed up because I meant to set my examples in the past tense) but…
Personally I see no reason to use octopi but cannot see how anyone can rail against ‘octopi’ while accepting ‘octopuses’ other than through balance of usage (which changes over time). Neither word follows conventions exactly (like many others in the English language do not) and I don’t subscribe to the supremacy of the ‘it’s in Chambers’ argument.
A sterling defence of the vanishing High Street, which I very much enjoyed, except of course for the omission of some reference to the presence of an officially incorrect spelling – “Love, constant, above all” — Boatman has the wrong sea creatures (6) or such like.
Thanks to Boatman and scchua. As others have said a very enjoyable puzzle with lots of nice clues. I baulked at octopi but decided it had to be the answer. As others have said a nice walk down memory high street, which sadly is disappearing at pace with lots of empty shops (even in areas which are traditionally affluent). It reminds me of a line I heard recently. Little girl in the future says “mummy what is a shop”. Mum replies “it was what we had before Amazon dear”. Time to stop rambling before I get on to disappearing pubs, and thanks again to Boatman and scchua.
Thanks Boatman; nice theme and plenty to chew on.
Thanks scchua; OCTOPI does appear as a plural in American dictionaries, but then the clue doesn’t say American.
Let’s put a grocer’s apostrophe in 26D: Criticise half-hearted shopping centre’s, when erected.
Dunkin’ Donut’s awful.
Andrew – I’m highly impressed by “Cactu’s Pear’s”. You could have told me that you’d invented that in order to prove two points simultaneously, and I’d have believed you!
Can anyone say for sure why greengrocers have been singled out as the ones responsible for this? Here’s my theory: they’ve always used little cards on spikes to show the prices of whatever was in their baskets. You couldn’t write much on them, and I’m sure I remember from my childhood that greengrocers started to write a heavily abbreviated label above the price, along the lines of “Pot’s”, “Tom’s” or “Avo’s”, the apostrophe quite correctly indicating the omission of some letters. You can see how that might have developed into a general confusion as to the right usage, but has anyone researched this properly? I’d love to know …
Thank you Boatman for a nostalgic puzzle and scchua for a super blog (10a should be ‘Historical payment for spy to remove uniform).
I first tried to enter SHOEMAKER at 11a, it goes back rather further in time and luckily it would not fit. Fancy £1 being considered cheap now, when I was a girl in 1950 that was equivalent to £30 …
[paddymelon/pademelon@26, I take your point re Cyclochila australasiae, the “green grocer” cicada. I must sound old-fashioned using greengrocer for a fruit and vege shop, but I don’t think fruiterer is accurate. What word or phrase do you use?
Such a pity that supermarkets have become a one stop shop. I still try to patronise the butchers, chemists and greengrocers, though I fear one day all of them will be subsumed.]
[Boatman@30, thanks for coming on the forum to share the enjoyment of your puzzle with us. I reckon there could be a thesis in “The Floating Apostrophe” As boaties ourselves (sailors), we are thinking of using it as the name for a future sailing boat.]
[Sorry, meant Boatman@31]
Boatman @31, that is a good point – I thought that perhaps a single article of produce was often sold in the past, so for “an apple costs a penny” the greengrocer’s label read “apple’s 1d”, some produce is still sold by the piece, e.g. cabbages and pineapples.
Boatman @31; I found this, which seems to corroborate your theory:
It is believed that the term was first coined in the middle of the twentieth century by a teacher of languages working in Liverpool, at a time when such mistakes were common in the handwritten signs and advertisements of greengrocers, e.g., “Apple’s 1/- a pound, orange’s 1/6d a pound”.
BTW, speaking of conventions, I don’t think the use of ‘an historical convention’ is very attractive unless you are a Cockney (or you say “an horse”)
If all grocers use the spurious comma then shouldn’t it be called the grocers’ comma?
Oops comma = apostrophe
Put it down to mistranslation.
Robi @37, this has come up before, it depends where the stress is, one usually would say “a history class” but “an historical event”.
Maybe a fine point but COD is not “How to pay” it signifies when payment becomes due.
Cookie @40; without prolonging this too long, I think this is a ‘post hoc’ rationalisation. There is a simple rule in English that if the h is pronounced one uses ‘a’, otherwise ‘an’. I think the convention comes from confusions like an (h)otel and a hotel. Does anyone say ‘an habitual’?
Wonderful puzzle as always from Boatman. Like Dutch@14 I bunged in PENCE for 27a and then had to go back and sort it out. Favourites were ATONE FOR and OCTOPI (despite the reasonable niggles about whether the word exists at all). Many thanks to B & s.
I liked this very much. Done in record time for a Boatman (for me) in around 20 mins, everything made sense and slotted in nicely, and I liked the theme very much. If a theme can have the appearance of someone going ‘tut-tut’, then this was it.
Thanks you to Boatman an Scchua.
[Robi @42, as regards ‘historic’ that rule is quite recent and probably due to the Americanization of English through internet use.]
Cookie @45; thanks for the link; very interesting. Of course in America it would be correct to say an herb, although over here we say a herb.
Thanks Cookie@32. Blog corrected. (Hadn’t put enough pressure on the CTL key, so it did a “move” instead of a “copy”.)
Thanks both,
An entertaining puzzle although ‘arboreal’ held me up for a while.
The OED entry for ‘octopus’ allows the plural ‘octopi’ and says the word is a borrowing from Latin.* It goes on to say that other derivatives of the word (eg ‘octopean’) arise similarly. I suspect ‘octopodes’ of being an affectation of 19th century grammarians handed down by Mrs Thistlebottoms in the classroom, along with myths about split infinitives and the difference between ‘less’ and ‘fewer’.
*OED also has an 1834 citation from a learned work (Georges de Cuvier · The Animal kingdom (transl. Edward Griffith) · 1st edition, 1824–1835 (16 vols.)) that uses ‘octopi’.
This was at the easier end of Boatman’s scale for me, perhaps because I saw the theme early, but there were still a few that were a little tricky to parse. Quite enjoyable.
Thanks to Boatman and scchua
Just to add to the OCTUPI thread. Using anglicised plurals on words from Latin or Greek is fine, e.g. syllabuses or syllabi. Indeed, as in the latter, the anglicised plural has taken over. So ‘octopuses’ is fine and is the normal plural. Putting a Latin plural on a Greek word is not ok. Hence the objection to ‘octopi’ in Chambers. However, there is an extra confusion here in that the Romans took the Greek word into Latin. So, if you follow the rule that you should use the original source, then ‘octopi’ is simply wrong. If you don’t follow that rule, then maybe it’s OK. Personally, I am in the former camp.
Thank you Boatman and Scchua for a delightful solve.
I am lucky enough to live in a part of suburban North London which still has a thriving 24ac, with a 11ac and no 9,26, plus a number of small 16s. The 2,23 is now in a stationery shop, which works really well.
I buy many clothes from Lands’ End, an American company which was gracious enough to acknowledge the mistake when it started trading here.
Partridge (I think) wrote “English plurals are much to be preferred”).
Parsing of 23 should produce O+C+TOP+ MY or IM.
OCTOPIM sounds like a good band name (8 piece maybe)
Seen outside a bar in Spain …
Live today. Arsenal v Leed’s
For 27 ac, I took the second part of “pound” – LB hence remove the B from bounce. Anybody else?
I just LOVE Boatman. He and I are on the same wavelength.
Someone the other day referred to the television quiz show ‘Impossible’, in which some answers are right, some are wrong and some are impossible [‘couldn’t possibly be right’]. OCTOPI falls into the last category, for the reasons I tried to explain in my comment @5, which Hovis @50 seems to understand. [The Latin is actually ‘octipes’ – again, literally, ‘eight feet’. From the Greek pous, podos, we get tripod, podiatry, etc and from the Latin pes, pedis, we get pedal and pedestrian.]
Boatman @25 – thank you for responding, {I had to go out immediately after posting my last comment, so just missed yours.] I appreciated the construction of the clue and, had you managed to convey the whimsicality of the answer, I, too, might have been beguiled. It’s not a case of being one of ‘those who remember their Greek’: I wouldn’t dream of using the word octopodes – but that would be no more pedantic or pretentious than ‘remembering’ a false Latin ending.
I don’t believe in flogging dead creatures of any kind, so I’ll now withdraw as gracefully as I can. 😉
Andrew @ 24:
Thank you for the trip down memory lane. Your link to Street View High St.
provoked a Pavlovian reaction in me to “cycle” down the turning on the right to the river,
only to find it was the wrong turning.
It’s odd that whilst High Streets are being subsumed, Cambridge, that didn’t have one,
acquired one by subsuming the village of Chesterton. Trust Cambridge to do everything
upside-down !
Thank you Boatman and Scchua – most enjoyable.
(Does Boatman have a boat, I wonder ?)
Boatman’s puzzle much enjoyed by Mr and Mrs M. One point to add to the grocer’s apostrophe debate ..I think that in trade names, once established, the name is what the person sais it is, even if starting from something that is grammatically incorrect. So, annoying as it may be, Currys is indeed that and not Curry’s. I grumble at this when entering many an old pub.
The locals here rather sweetly refer to our apostrophe as the SAXON GENITIVE.
I know a bit about Aldus Minutius and his ;
but when did the ‘ come in and how ?
An increasingly frequent misuse of the apostrophe is in the possessive of “it” (it’s instead of its). In fact this is often seen in comments on crosswords and crossword blogs! Also, some firms deliberately omit a legitimate apostrophe in their titles because they consider it typographically ugly: Barclay’s Bank calls itself Barclays Bank for that reason. They confirmed this when I complained. So I withdrew my account.
Thank you all. I sometimes wonder if the grocers apostrophe in tomato’s and potato’s could be excused as replacing a missing letter (c.f. it’s and it is). My spellchecker tried to prevent me from using the teratoform words!
Eileen @56: My school Latin dictionary gives ‘octipes’ as an adjective meaning eight-footed. An online dictionary gives the Latin for octopus as polypus, pl. polypi, but then, as OED indicates, ‘octopus’ was taken into English from Mediaeval Latin, not classical Latin. I don’t have better sources to hand, but the analogy with ‘polypus’ is persuasive that ‘octopi’ is permissible to me, but I’d always write ‘octopuses’ myself. It would be interesting to know what scholars writing in Latin in Mediaeval and Enlightenment times used as the plural of ‘octopus’.
Hi Tyngewick – I said I’d finished but thanks for that. My 2019-page Lewis and Short Latin dictionary does not give ‘octopus’ but, as you say, it is Mediaeval Latin. I accept the direct analogy with polypus.
It so rare for Chambers actually to say that a usage is “Wrong” that I think we should bow to that opinion!
Not a lot to add – some quibbles, but I won’t bother with them. Favourite was the neatly hidden OWNS UP. I liked the construction of ARBOREAL, but I can’t make sense of the surface!
Thanks Boatman and Scchua.
Another typically abysmal puzzle by Boatman.
9A “leading” does not mean “the first letter of”. Anyone who understood even the basic fundamentals of cryptic grammar would surely write “head of firm”.
10A. “to remove uniform” does not mean “remove the first letter of uniform”. Anyone who understood even the basic fundamentals of cryptic grammar would surely write “removing uniform”.
24A displays incredibly inelegant style. Why not simply “Emiment setter changed traditional marketplace”?
I could go on with this list but the last time I was posting here, I was advised I should keep any criticisms to a maximum of three.
Well OCTOPI may be wrong but I got the answer which the setter intended and didn’t think twice. It’s obvious what it means so I can’t see that there’s a problem. I rather enjoyed this even though I didn’t find it especially easy.
I don’t think we should over romanticize the High St. My father was a grocer and had a small shop many years ago. I remember high prices and lack of choice. Not to mention short opening hours. Mind you, I don’t like steam trains either!
Thanks Boatman
Rompiballe@60: That’s the spirit! But just think of all those poor greengrocers that would go out of business . . .
gofirstmate@65: You seem very grumpy. How anyone can say “a typically abysmal puzzle by Boatman” is beyond me.
drofle@67: Not grumpy at all. I appreciate solid cryptic clue-writing from any setter. But Boatman is so totally unsound that how he ever got published in the first place beggars belief. I gather he runs courses for budding setters. One only hopes said courses are free of charge.
Well well, how about that for some real excitement?
I know what gofirstmate is talking about, yet do not really agree. I think there was not too much to loathe for the purists (meaning not enough to discard the puzzle as a whole).
Some clues are indeed clunky (like eg 8ac or 7d) but Boatman is not The Master of the Surface (nor is Paul, neither was Araucaria, to name a couple of well-respected setters).
We liked the overall fun feeling of this crossword. So, that’s the positive news.
As to the ‘octopus’ discussion, I actually find Boatman’s reaction @25 [Yes, I do feel sympathy for those who remember their Greek and despair at the acceptance of usages like “octopi”, but in this case it was too tempting, and the effect of the clue was so beguiling that I couldn’t put it out of my mind. I read Chambers’ entry when I was writing the clue, and was very amused by their forthright condemnation, which, if anything, made me more inclined to rebel! Etymologically, it’s quite clear that they’re right, but should we constrain language so that it may not develop from its thousand-year roots? Chambers is quite happy, for example, to accept either “referendums” or “referenda” as the plural of that problematic word, which would bother some people, but not me] actually quite stupid (if I may use that word). Next time we’ll take ‘opi’ as the plural of ‘opus’, sounds good, doesn’t it?
If a classicist (Eileen) and at least two dictionaries (Chambers, the SOED) explicitly say it’s wrong (and Collins doesn’t mention that plural either), I cannot see a single reason to justify ‘octopi’. It’s a silly clue anyway – look at the surface!
On the whole, still an enjoyable exercise.
il principe dell’oscurità @57: (Does Boatman have a boat, I wonder ?). Is that a rhetorical question?
Many thanks to scchua & Boatman.
Great fun, and an entertaining theme. Among several good clues I liked OWNS UP, POST OFFICE, REF and ARSENAL the best.
Robert @27
I have sometimes questioned where on earth Chambers has got its authority from for certain deefinitions and spellings, and I think not subscribing to the ‘supremacy’ of Chambers is a healthy position to take. However, I believe Chambers is, whether by convention or editorial preference or diktat, the primary reference for English words used in crossword solutions. Boatman may back me up on this or indeed have his own view on it.
I was amazed to see the spelling OCTOPI indicated as wrong in such an explcit way in Chambers. For what it’s worth, my own view is that OCTOPI is whimsical and wrong, and I think it was rather naughty not to indicate something to that effect in the clue.
Me @70
‘definitions’ (not ‘deefinitions’).
gofirstmate @65
I’m afraid you’re in a small minority here. Why do you have it in for Boatman? He provides a lot of pleasure for most posters here. What have you got against him that few others agree with?
Sil@69: Paul, for all his peccadilloes and unfortunate obsession with puerile smut, is a highly innovative and basically sound setter. Araucaria was often completely unsound; however, I can’t deny he was a loveable old rogue who, down the years, gave great pleasure to an enormous number of crossword fans. But Boatman is just awful since his cryptic ineptitude cannot even be justified on the grounds of witty surface readings.
Anyway, following the three-and-out rule, that’s it from me as regards comments on this particular effort at a crossword puzzle.
gofirstmate @68. You should really stick to commenting on things you know about. I have attended 2 of Boatman’s classes. They were thorough, full of sound information, and the presentations (also supplied to attendees) are so detailed, they could be an instruction book in their own right. The discussion is pointed, keen and passed round all attendees. I have leapt in standards of setting since attending. Alumni are now setting for nationals. Please – put your grudges aside, and let people enjoy the puzzles and classes as I have.
il principe dell’oscurità @57:
Actually, Cambridge now has 3 High Streets (Chesterton, Cherry Hinton & Trumpington). All by acquisition in the changes of 1912….
I’ll get my anorak.
🙂
I respectfully differ with those who insist OCTOPI is wrong.
OCTOPI are wrong.
Uncleskinny @74, when it comes to what sound setting is, I am actually more on gofirstmate‘s side than on Boatman‘s, I think. I have no opinion on the latter’s ‘masterclasses’. But calling them ‘masterclasses’ must be the result of seeing yourself as a real expert. I’ve heard others saying that they were indeed enjoyable. That said, I am afraid that unlike you [I have leapt in standards of setting since attending] I would in the end be rather annoyed having to comply with these ‘standards of setting’ as they are not mine. But to each their own. Your next line [Alumni are now setting for nationals] is a line I really hate. The pompousness of the word ‘alumni’ alone puts me off and who tells me that they’re setting for the nationals because of having attended this ‘course’?
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed this puzzle (as I usually do) but Boatman’s style of setting is not what I am looking for.
On top of that, everything reminds me too much of that typically British phenomenon that something should aim to be ‘award winning’. Making things more important than they really are.
Meanwhile, don’t worry, there are no grudges to put aside (here in Cherry Hinton High Street 🙂 ). Not as far as I am concerned, I can’t speak for gofirstmate.
Tiresome stuff for me with some errors that a master shouldn’t really be making, but I actually liked one of the clues, the one for CLOSE BY. It made sense, and the cryptic was seamless.
Bravo then.
Wonderful how, as the evening wears on, and the levels of the bottles of Lidl’s red infuriator decline, the discussion becomes more strident. Lighten up guys. If people use something as a word, it’s a word. Crosswords are meant to be fun, not a rite. (Besides, the more I look into it, the more the stronger the case that ‘octopi’ is right (and ‘octopodes’ is probably wrong) seems.)
Have another drink!
As a fine act of reconciliation between all parties, why not all agree that the plural of octopus should henceforward be octopus’s.
Van Winkle@81 – Or octopussies?
That’s the spirit!
“if people use something as a word, it’s a word”
An interesting idea.
More interesting: OCTOPI is listed in COED and Chambers as “wrong” but is listed. Therefore it is probably valid, but only if the clue makes that clear.
Of course the other possibility is that the setter just made a mistake …
Rompiballe @60: Bravissimo, that’s made my day.
Sil V d H: No, it’s not rhetorical; I’m studying
celestial navigation and am always curious about
people and their boats. Oh, and should a rhetorical question have
a ? ?
Max @75: It’s a very fine anorak ! Many thanks.
Just how many Cambridge bods are lurking on this site?
Andrew, Sil, Max (?), myself, if I count, being perched
in my garret in the middle of the Med.
Il Principe – Though I don’t usually return to these discussions the morning after, I did on this occasion and, as I see that you are still lurking here, I can answer your question: when I started setting crosswords, I was living on a Dutch barge in Brighton Marina, so (if you include the little yawl that I used as a tender) I had two boats, but I sold both when our daughter became big enough for the risk of her disappearing over the side to be a real concern. There’s a hint of what the barge looked like on my website.
Thank you. I know the area; I stayed in a hotel, rigged out like a liner, at Brighton marina.
Re disappearing over the side, in small boats I still do it a lot, despite being fifty rather than two.
I’m in the process of sailing a mythical “yawl” (my desk)across the “Atlantic” in a blogged exercise
in navigation.
badbers @84, surprisingly OCTOPI is given as a plural for octopus, without comment, by both the Cambridge and Longman dictionaries online…
The apostrophe debate reminded me of a puzzling sign I could see as I approached a local Greengrocer shop: “REEFS”. It was Xmas, they were selling Xmas garlands. Took a moment for the penny to drop! (For our non-UK friends- th is often pronounced f in the London area: so wreaths = reefs!)
I thought the plural of Octopus should be Octopera, but I defer to the best suggestion (while this crossword featuring high street trader’s is fresh in our minds), namely, Octopus’s, as given above.
Eileen@63 eral
I shared your view of octopi until today when I thought that if we are to use the Latin singular octopus we ought to allow the Latin plural octopi. Octopodes is the plural of octopous. If I ever need it I will use octopuses.
Reminds me of the story of the man who was starting a zoo and wanted two large, horned pachyderms. Having tried and failed to find a plural that looked right he wrote ” Please supply me with a rhinoceros and while you’re at it please can I have another one”
Apologies for the late post and thanks to Boatman and scchua.
91 eral should have been et al
Probably a bit late to add to this particular blog but I’m a day behind this week. A couple of extra side issues in a different direction to what’s already been discussed:
1. Although on a 24A you can buy 23D at a 11A, they aren’t actually fish!
2. In answer to “What do you do for living?”, would you reply “I mong”? And does it only apply to purveyors of fish, iron, cheese, costers, etc (how many others are there?) or to a vendor of any description?
Wasn’t it a mongoose and the man wanted two mongeese?
Until I looked in the OED today, I too had always believed the patent lie I’d been fed at school about the plural of octopus being octopodes. It turns out we borrowed the word from one Linnaeus coined in Latin in 1758 – sure, it had its origins in Greek, but it’s a Latin-to-English borrowing. OED lists the plurals in the order “octopuses, octopi, octopodes (rare)”.
Before 1758, the animal was a poulp, a preke, a pourcuttle or a “manie-foote” in English. Lovely!
Anyway, this should set the matter straight! Thanks for a fun puzzle, Boatman.
This was clearly not Boatman’s ‘magnificent octopus’ (as Baldrick would call it).
But as a solver I can still enjoy a crossword despite its imperfections and/or despite not being a massive fan of the setter’s style.
As I did!
Alan B @90, I like ‘octopera’ but I would also not dismiss what I suggested as the plural of ‘opus’ [‘opi’].
Il Principe etc: I thought it was a well-known fact that Boatman was/is indeed a Boatman.
BTW1: what is ‘celestial navigation’? Sailing with a boat on a lunar sea?
BTW2: don’t forget there’s even more Cambridge – Hectence, Philistine, tupu, Rorschach (where are you, mate?), Daedalus [& surely more].
@Sil
Rorschach is nowadays working at the cerebral end (yes, there is one) of the football writing spectrum and has very recently completed a piece on Hegel and Jose Mourinho which has received rave notices
Who? Jon or Jose?
Well well! I completed Boatman’s puzzle but was too busy to make it here to 15^2 yesterday, because I’ve been digging out at work (where I am a “documentmonger”, I now realize) all week due to being away on travel all last week. I enjoyed the puzzle, and, now that I have managed to get here and read down to this point, I really enjoyed the blog and the discussion thread, with the twin lead topics of the grocer’s (or greengrocer’s) apostrophe — that particular term (but not the thing it describes) was a TILT for me, or to be accurate I now need to refer to it as a TILY — and the plural for octopus, and with additional discussions on the pronounced vs. silent leading “h” and the philosophy (if that is the correct term) of setting, all leavened with the usual array of amusing anecdotes and wry observations.
COD gave me the best laugh of the puzzle and is therefore my CO[t]D.
[Julie in Australia@33 and Paddymelon @26 — in case you check back here (perhaps that we are now — with my post I believe — going to hit the century mark for this thread) — I wanted to thank you for pointing out that greengrocer is the name of an Australian species of cicada. Prior to reading through the comments I had no idea that there existed *any* cicadas in Australia, so that really is a TILT! I Googled a picture of the greengrocer, and it looks like a pretty green fairy compared to the ungainly, hulking “dog-day” cicadas we have every August here in Maryland! When my wife and I were renting our first apartment together many Augusts ago, the property manager received a phone call while we were in her office, from a panicked resident asking for the maintenance man to come remove a “frog with wings” from her balcony!]
[The discussion of misplaced apostrophes reminds me of the (losing) battle I waged with the elementary school that our children attended. Every time I went in for teacher conferences (spanning *ten* consecutive years, from our oldest children’s kindergarten year through our youngest child’s 5th grade year), I would notice the sign on the wall, “BOY’S BATHROOM” [which bathroom, to be clear, contained multiple urinals and toilet stalls], and every time I would ask the teachers if they had complained to the school administration that that sign (together with the corresponding “GIRL’S” sign by the girls’ bathroom) was undermining their ability to teach the children proper usage of apostrophes. And every time the teacher I mentioned this to would respond with some variant of either “I never noticed that sign before” or “You must be joking”. Sigh.]
Many thanks to Boatman and scchua and the other commenters.
Speedier solve than some Boatmans but no less enjoyable for that. Many thanks. Only clue to evince a wince was 26dn; surely the shopping centres were “disheartened” or “empty hearted” or even “heartless” rather than “half-hearted”?! I assumed some such had been Boatman’s original intention (slipp’d ‘twixt cup and lip). OCTOPI felt wrong but I gave it no thought. I ticked ARSENAL, a nicely formed clue.
Thanks to Boatman and blogger
[Also enjoyed the heated indignation above. Particular thanks to the main players!]