Guardian Prize puzzle No 27,669 by Philistine

45 comments on “Guardian Prize puzzle No 27,669 by Philistine”

1. Thanks bridgesong.  Happy to get half the answers on the first pass, sad then to find the symmetry of the crossers made it fiendish to slot them in.  Began pencilling in DINGHY to permit GUESTIMATE and that worked nicely.  Couldn’t explain HNO in the D clue (your Oh No!); SCIENTISTS went in last.  All in all this was splendid so bravo Philistine.

2. Great work both by Philistine and by bridgesong. Interesting weekend with both this and a far from plain Azed (Eightsome Reels).

   As of 12.30 a.m. you cover both of the Y endings but only one of the V endings

3. I see that my solution – answers all correct – was not your lay-out at all: my first across was OPTIMIST and first down EPHEMERA.

4. I thought there were a couple other indications of direction: “bacK” in the clue for EPHEMERA and “turn” in the clue for KIEV seemed to hint at at an across orientation.

5. Oh, and I meant to say thanks, bridgesong, for the extra-challenging blogging task!

6. And talking about KIEV, I think Bridgesong,  you forgot that one in the blog.

7. The other V being a reversal of skinless oVEr lIKe to give chicken KIEV. I always enjoy alphabetical jigsaws and this was much less daunting than it first appeared. With the alphabet being the last letter I was prepared to go on high probability rather than perfect logic and the two clues starting with D and fitting in with the ten letter S and W gave me a good start

8. Thanks bridgesong. With a 50% chance of getting the orientation right of course I failed. I use the print version so there was no point in starting again and I just left it at that. If you want to enter the competition then of course you have to get it right but otherwise I think completion of the grid is satisfaction enough. I knew GOBI had to be right but took a long time to see why, it was my LOI for that reason. Google confirmed ‘apneic’ for me but I find  the OED  gives only ‘apnœic’.

9. For APNEIC, are we perhaps meant to read ‘us’ as if it was US, i.e. the American spelling? – a variant of the kind of hint that comes up quite often in cluing words like LABOR.

10. Surely the key direction indicators were A for across (are back) and D for down (coming up). These certainly made me chuckle, and allowed me to start filling the grid.

11. Thanks to Philistine and bridgesong. I gave up the last time I encountered a last letter alphabetical, but this time I persevered. After a week I can’t remember exactly how I got started (with less than half of the solutions), but I think that once I decided (by process of elimination) where ON HOLD had to go, I filled in THUMBSCREW, DEWLAP and GUESTIMATE. I somehow dredged up SCARGILL, had to check GCHQ, and had trouble with KIEV and especially CACHOU where I was looking for a pastille, not a nut connection.

12. I enjoy these alphabetical jigsaw puzzles, and this was a very nice example. I couldn’t decide if it was easier than usual or whether I’d simply been very lucky with my initial solutions and a couple of rather tentative guesses as to where they should go, all of which turned out to be right, which isn’t usually the case.  (I had THUMBSCREW pencilled in so faintly I confused myself later by misreading the letters). I actually managed without needing my usual list of clues sorted by length, even though I only had twelve solutions when I started to fill in the grid. I think that’s where I was lucky: I had GOBI and GCHQ and JOAN BAEZ and THE RAJ, and then took a punt on where to put THUMBSCREW and the bottom half slowly emerged. I even had the orientation (which I got, like bridgesong, from ON HOLD and DEWLAP) right, which was pure chance.

    Some words came from the past – SCARGILL, for example, and IDIOT BOX (I thought I remembered that as the title of a Doctor Who episode, set in the fifties, but I see that was actually ‘The Idiot’s Lantern’). I had to Google to check APNEIC, was disappointed by how long it took me to spot SCIENTISTS – especially as that’s what my passport claims I am – and couldn’t get my LOI, KIEV, until I put the paper down for a while and let my subconscious come up with it – I was surprised that worked.

    Thanks, Philistine, I enjoyed that, and thanks for the blog, bridgesong.

13. Many apologies for omitting KIEV, whose clue was: Turn over, like skinless chicken? (4).

    I’m afraid that my HTML skills are not up to inserting it into the completed table.

    I agree that EPHEMERA is clearly an across clue; I think KIEV is more ambiguous.

14. I have overcome my fear of jigsaw cryptics, for which I thank Philistine. I really appreciated the blog too – it was a challenging one to blog and format, bridgesong.

    I enjoyed this from start to finish, with quite a few clues taking me ages to see. JOAN BAEZ was my favourite. [I smiled at the use of jazz in that clue, as I don’t like jazz much, but I do like Joan’s folk music a great deal: her music stays “Forever Young” (even better than the Bob Dylan original) (and the names Julie/Julia/Juliet/Julius/Julian etc all derive from the Latin iuvenis/juvenis meaning “young”)].

15. As alphabetical cryptics go, this was one of the best.  I thought the clues were pitched just right for this format, where you don’t get the benefit of crossing letters until much later in the solviing process.

    Like Biggles A @8, I wasn’t really concerned with getting the orientation right, but knowing which two clues were going to determine that I discovered pretty soon that my guess turned out by chance to be correct.

    The top right corner where the L, S, U and X clues went was the last to fall, as I haven’t come across either CACHOU or IDIOT BOX before.  The ‘U’ suggested the sound of ‘cashew’, and that unlocked the corner, with SCIENTISTS the last to go in (as with molonglo @1).

    I rarely do the prize puzzles, and I did this one on tip-offs that came at me from two directions.  It was a joy to solve.

    Thanks to Philistine for such a good prize crossword, and to bridgesong for producing a helpful and readable under such duress!

16. It’s the “west” in the definition for TEETER that indicates which way the grid should be filled, isn’t it?

     

17. Manu @16: I didn’t see “west” as part of the definition of “teeter” rather as an indication of the letter (w) that had to be removed “out”.

18. Actually, I thought that this was easy, not just by the standards of jigsaw puzzles but by Prizes in general. I did it in a single sitting which is unusual for a Prize of any sort. I often sornd longer solving a weekday Guardian crossword. I got clues A to E immediately.

    For this type of crossword, I like to prove the location of the answers or, when the orientation is uncertain, at least reduce it to two possibilities. In this case, I could not manage this despite having over half the solutions before trying. I decided to risk wasting my printout and guessing. I was lucky and my guess was right. My first entries were in the SE corner and I worked away from there. Getting the orientation correct was pure luck but I would not have bothered to reprint if that was the only mistake.

    This is not intended as a boast just an observation on the relative difficulty of this puzzle.

19. “sornd” is a weird mistyping of “spend”.

20. Thanks to Philistine for an enjoyable puzzle. Thans too to bridgesong. I share your views on jigsaws in general and this one in particular. Having read the preamble I broke the habit of a lifetime and filled it in in pencil.
    I have one quibble – the use of rampant to mean reversal in a down clue. I made the same point @56 on Vlad’s 276650 on 26/10.Chambers says “rearing, standing in profile” and I can’t see how this makes “upside down” but as it has passed without comment since 2012 at least the fault must be mine.(It was only questioned in an across clue). To me all down clues are rampant.
    Other setters have used rampant as an anagrind which I think is stretching Chambers’ definition a bit too far – “high spirited, fierce, unrestrained, unchecked in growth or prevalence”.

21. Me@20
    Comment refers to clue P. Sorry.

22. I had to get most of the answers before I dared attempt the fill-in and of course the remainder fell into place as soon as I had some crossers. I was never going to enter it for the prize so I didn’t care which way round I filled it in and, inevitably, I got it wrong. Hey ho. LOI was sacientists, largely because, where ‘I come from we pronounce (and spell) it Cyan, not Cyen, but that’s only a small quibble. Never heard of Apneic so did need a little help there. I laughed at Gobi – nice one Philistine. All in all very enjoyable so thank you both for the puzzle and the blog

23. Er – scientists. Sorry, tiny keyboard

24. Just to emphasise that I was not boasting: my first read through of today’s Prize resulted in no answers.

25. @Bad John, I felt the same as you, actually.  Quite easy for me.  And I speak as one who has been having difficulties completing some recent puzzles.

    I think that, as Alan B@15 said, the clues themselves were pitched at just the right level, ie easier than usual, and this is because we haven’t got the benefit of crossing letters till much later on.  So I could whizz through most of the clues, which is a psychological boost!

    The only troublesome clues for me were X; S; L.  In fact, I only solved L at the very last moment as I put it in the grid – my LOI.

    Having said that, the real problems came with placing the solutions in the grid.  The four-lettered solutions had to be in only two places and the eight-lettered solutions I just ‘tried’ where I could.  I was lucky as I hit Thumbscrew and Evensong on only my second try.

    I realised that D was a down clue but failed to spot any other direction indicators.  But Rubecula @10 is surely right when (s)he says that A and D also indicate across and down.

    All in all, an enjoyable puzzle, thanks to Philistine and bridgesong.

     

26. I had a frustrating time with this.
    I managed to solve only 22 of the 28 clues outside of the grid (the clueing was fair enough, but I missed the US spelling indicator for APNEIC, had never heard of CACHOU, and suffered four other examples of ‘brain fade’).
    Worse than that, I then could not see any way to *definitively* place my answers within the grid.

    Please could someone explain to me *how* you decided to fill the grid?

    The two four-letter answers starting with G and the two ending in V are the only ones that can be placed for certain, and I can see no exclusive way to decide how to orient either pair (I.e. to definitively decide which ought to be across, and which down).
    There are so many 8-letter answers that both orientations are perfectly possible in each case.

    There are also so many 6-letter answers that each of the four 10-letter answers could also be fitted in more than one space. How did you decide which of the possible orientations of each pair of answers would correctly interlock within the grid?
    I.e. if two orientations of the solutions are possible (I’ll call them ‘left-handed’ and ‘right-handed’), how did you determine that you had the ‘left-handed’ orientation of e.g. the – – – V answers AND the ‘left-handed’ orientation of the G – – – answers, and matching orientations of the 6-letter, 8-letter, and 10-letter answers; that you were NOT trying to fill the grid with a mix of ‘left-handed’ and ‘right-handed’ orientations?

    Is the only way to solve this iterative trial-and-error with multiple copies?
    What am I failing to see?

    Cheers,
    Gem

27. Thanks to Philistine and bridgesong. I enjoyed this a lot, but I found it easier to solve than fit in the grid. I had 21 answered, before I even attempted to fit it in. I looked at the correct answers for ages until I thought I just had to go for it. I cannot remember my exact thinking, but fortunately picked the correct orientation (probably by luck rather than judgement), and once it began to fit together it unfolded quite readily. My last ones were apneic, scientists and GCHQ and favourites Joan Baez, fortieth and idiot box. Thanks again to Philistine and bridgesong (rather you than me).

28. Gem@26
    THE RAJ and JOAN BAEZ can also be placed.
    If you get DEWLAP and work out that it is a down clue it is possible to work out where to put it from the 10-letter THUMBSCREW crosser. Thence THE RAJ amd Joan Baez etc.
    This is all hindsight. I got it wrong.

29. Like Molonglo, I completed the thoroughly enjoyable puzzle correctly and successfully filled the grid. I am not sure that I care about it not being the “correct” version.

    It was hard enough without having to look for hints like ‘back’ and ‘turn’ ?

30. Gem@26: the short answer is use a pencil! Like you I started with the Y (not G) and V answers, but had no way of deciding which way they were to go. The 10 letter answers are the key; if you get them right, everything else will fall into place. In addition, if you deduce that EPHEMERA is an across clue (which I failed to do), you can in fact then place the Y and V answers with a reasonable degree of confidence.

31. Thanks Philistine for a well-pitched challenge and Bridgesong for explaining it so well despite the technical challenges.

    Comparatively (but not too) straightforward for me — I took a bit of a flier with EPHEMERA being across (was a bit unsure about the ‘are back’ as indicator of direction. The rampant DEWLAP was a good re-assurance, and I think I also spotted the ‘coming up’ in ON HOLD

    Completely missed the fact that A and D clues showed the correct indication – subtle and nicely done. Noting DEWLAP also starts with D and has a direction indicator, I guess it would have been exceptional if ALLS OK and APNEIC could also have had across indicators.

    Like several others, GOBI raised a smile. And like @Julie In AUstralia, I enjoyed the JOAN BAEZ clue — by serendipity she had been referenced by Jennie Murray on a Radio 4 programme which I’d heard earlier that same morning.

    Thanks again to all concerned.

32. I always enjoy a jigsaw. Had about half of the solutions before tentatively entering the Ds – started there because DEWLAP had to be a down clue. From there it all fell into place fairly easily apart from the unfamiliar CACHOU.

    Thanks to Philistine and bridgesong

33. Nothing to add, except huge thanks to Philistine for a most entertaining and enjoyable puzzle and to bridgesong for a masterly blog.

34. I did this Sunday morning, quite quickly, at a time I’d normally be asleep … which is my excuse for thinking the B clue indicated ‘down’, and not noticing the real indications.

    F might have indicated downness too, with ‘on’ meaning ‘before’, rather than ‘after’ as for an across clue. However, not everyone sticks to that convention in across clues and Philistine likes to be free (cf “brokenhearted”), so it’d be no guarantee, I suppose.

    I suspect the A = across and D = down thing might just be a coincidence, though I’d be delighted to learn it really wasn’t. Too subtle for me if it was, mind.

    I didn’t know (/remember?) CACHOU, but got it from wordsearch.

    I didn’t get the “cyan” homophone either (different second vowel), but I probably should have (thanks Bridgesong). I still entered SCIENTISTS, vaguely wondering if all scientists are researchers.

    I thought “us” indicating American spelling was a nice touch that went over my head at the time. Thanks, quenbarrow, for pointing that out.

    I liked the fact that I could solve so many clues so easily and wish I’d paid more attention to orientation. Very enjoyable.

    Well done, Bridgesong, on your excellent ‘hand-made’ blog. Bad luck about Kiev.

35. Forgot to come here yesterday, pity as this was great fun. Didn’t try placing until I had nearly all solutions, then reckoned that the the two ending in v would be the NW 4s and the two other 4s were SE, et voila! Thanks Philistine for the invenuity and Bridgesong for a man?ful blog.

36. grantinfreo @35

    Sometimes I search for ages to find a decent portmanteau word and then one comes along by accident.  In your last sentence you said ‘invenuity’, cleverly combining ingenuity and inventiveness, which describes this setter’s achievement very well.

37. Gem@26: I always try to fit in the long answers first, in these jigsaw puzzles. Here, there are four ten-letter words, and I knew three of them (I didn’t get SCIENTISTS until much later). These words intersect in pairs in the diagram, so that the fourth letter of one must be the seventh letter of the other. The fourth letter of THUMBSCREW is the same as the seventh letter of GUESTIMATE, namely M. So that pair of words is a good candidate for forming an intersecting pair. The fourth and seventh letters of DONERKEBAB are both E. But there is no E in either the fourth or the seventh letters of THUMBSCREW or GUESTIMATE. So DONERKEBAB cannot intersect with either of those two words, and therefore their intersection at the letter M is the only possibility.

38. Solved everything correctly and entered it as Biggles@ 8 did. Seemed alright at the time and still does. Apparently I got it wrong but I can’t say I’m bothered.
    Thanks Philistine.

39. Thanks to Philistine and bridgesong

    I solved all this correctly, but my gridfill was incorrect, as I took a DONER KEBAB to be something that hangs vertically. Seems a fair indicator to me (it would, wouldn’t it).

    Purely as a matter of interest, I wonder what the commenters who think that clues should have an unambiguous solution think of grids that can have an ambiguous fill?

40. Hello Simon S,

    I like your idea about the DONER KEBAB hanging vertically !

    Maybe you are not familiar with the convention that seems to be widely accepted that in wordplay down or up are always associated with D clues and back, always with A clues (and synonyms like North for upwards and West for backwards). For instance the ON HOLD solution would never be an A solution even in a normal (numbered, not alpha jigsaw) grid.

    Personally I quite like a grid which is ambiguous with subtle indicators as in this case.

    I can though, still remember being utterly baffled and somewhat put out the first time I came across one (an Araucaria from many years back).

41. grantinfreo @ 35. I had the two 4s ending in v in the NW and the two other 4s in the SE and still got the orientation wrong. Quelle horreur!

42. epee S @ 40

    Yes, I’m familiar with those conventions. I’m also aware that there have been a number of occasions, which have provoked lengthy discussion here and elsewhere, where ‘conventional’ indicators have been used differently (but naturally I can’t bring them to mind at the moment). Add to which, if you are working things out (on paper) in the margins, even Down clues would be written horizontally for ease of comprehension (at least, I assume others do this).

    I accept that I got the gridfill ‘wrong’ on this occasion, which may be a result of seeing the trees (solutions) separately from the wood (the solutions as a whole), but may also be compounded by tackling a puzzle in more than one session, hindering their being seen as a whole.

    No complaints, I’m just interested in others’ views.

43. Gem@26 – I got 24/28 of the answers from the clues alone and the other 4 with jogging from the helpful crossers after filling in the grid. The ones I got I grouped by length to make it easier to insert them, but was short of 1×10, 1×8 and 2×6.

    Like others, easy to spot that the 2×4’s ending in V had to be in the NW, and that the 2×6’s ending in Y must also be in that same corner.

    Missing 1 of the 8’s made it a little bit of a gamble, but only 2 of the 7 I had intersected with either of the V ending 4’s – EPHEMERA and EVENSONG (both 4th letter E to cross the one in PERV), and of these only EPHEMERA connected with one of the Y ending 6’s (DEADLY).

    So I have the start but what orientation to go for? I took “ARE back” to be a horizontal indicator (or else wouldn’t it have needed to be “ARE up”?) and carried on from there – getting more confident when the 2 obviously Down answers (as highlighted by Bridgesong) came out in the expected direction.

    And then the 4 missing ones suddenly became very easy – and thankfully wouldn’t have spoiled my gamble as the revealed missing 8 (IDIOT BOX), didn’t cross PERV or KIEV anyway.

    So I made it 3 direction indicators in total rather than 2, and all 3 answers were correctly orientated when inserted by my above logic – or else I’d have needed to reprint my grid (was using the online PDF) and swap them all over.

44. Doh! Just realized that EVENSONG wouldn’t have crossed PERV anyway, so thete was only one choice all along (barring my missing 8 being another candidate).

    The 2×4 V’s and all 8×8’s, plus taking the EPHEMERA clue to include an Across indicator, is all you need to get the orientation (with confirmation from the 2 Downs).

45. I really enjoyed this. Clues quite friendly as they need to be, and a reasonable way in with the repeated end-letter clues.

    Many thanks!

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